Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

In theoy then, could you do the Quick drop on the opponent, do a phoenix bomb with a jump dodge which would result in a footstool, toss the phoenix bombs down and follow that either with another footstool or with a dairspike, going for a boule dair maybe?

No. The bomb must be caught the very moment after it is dropped if it is going to be caught at all if dropped within a hurtbox. There simply would not be enough time, even after a double jump, let alone a footstool. And for that matter, I'm actually not sure if it is even possible to do it with an airdodge at all (i.e. jump, instant z-drop within their character model then instantly re-grab the bomb (even though it has exploded) with an airdodge). If anyone can make this work, let me know, because I see no reason why this shouldn't work.

 

[DarkDeity15]

No. The bomb must be caught the very moment after it is dropped if it is going to be caught at all if dropped within a hurtbox. There simply would not be enough time, even after a double jump, let alone a footstool. And for that matter, I'm actually not sure if it is even possible to do it with an airdodge at all (i.e. jump, instant z-drop within their character model then instantly re-grab the bomb (even though it has exploded) with an airdodge). If anyone can make this work, let me know, because I see no reason why this shouldn't work.

I can confirm that it's possible. However I just don't see the practicality in performing this. As far as I can tell, you need to be frame perfect. It took me many, many tries to get it to work. And even then, you can't keep the "resurrected" bomb for long before it explodes.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I can confirm that it's possible. However I just don't see the practicality in performing this. As far as I can tell, you need to be frame perfect. It took me many, many tries to get it to work. And even then, you can't keep the "resurrected" bomb for long before it explodes.

Oh cool lol. Yeah it's just that I thought it would be funny to catch the bomb with an instant bomb throw so it's like, where did that second explosion just come from? Just ignore me.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Oh cool lol. Yeah it's just that I thought it would be funny to catch the bomb with an instant bomb throw so it's like, where did that second explosion just come from? Just ignore me.

I can definitely see people not noticing it. Even commentators. Well, at least for the first few times, unless they know Link well enough to notice the first time lol. However I can definitely see this having use in teams. Especially in teams with more than two players in each. Imagine all of the sick team combos that are possible with phoenix bombs (Someone should seriously mess around with this). In theory, if one person in a team of 3 were to land a grab, Link/Gay could possibly drop a bomb whilst someone is there grab it after the explosion, where they throw the bomb again in order to true combo into kill move either by them, the Link/Gay, or the other team mate. It might even be possible to phoenix bomb a second time if done fast enough lol. But I'd imagine it being excruciatingly difficult to master a combo like that, so it shouldn't be seen in tournament play for a long, long time. That is, if it's even possible. I'll head to the lab to see if Link's bombs treat team mates the same way when they explode on a hurtbox.

Edit: They do, so it's definitely possible. Now we just need someone to pull off a phoenix bomb combo. I can't try it out though because I don't have anyone living close by who would want to attempt it, let alone play Smash with me. As such, it has to be someone else. @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive

 

[FGC-Oni]

So I wanted to discuss game strategy since it's something that is reliant on your opponent and is different from match to match. From a scale of 1/10 as far as skill in this game is concerned, I'd say I'm an honest 6 maybe even a 7 but anyways, in FG today and I come across a good player (Which is rare and I don't quit after the first match I usually go best 2 out of 3). However, since good players are rare to find I keep playing until they quit since it allows me to slowly adapt to their play styles which in turn makes me that much better of a Link player.

I find that among the better players they usually have a habit that's something like this. If you're typically an aggressive player (Such as myself) they shield your attacks and immediately punish/grab or roll behind you. I tend to get punished a lot for just rushing in and going for a short hop Nair, Zair, or dash attack. But the more I played with this guy I started using pivot tilts and grabs as he kept rolling as soon as he'd think I was going to attack. Once he wasn't sure I was more able to hit him with projectiles and aerials but I still struggle to get the kill.

Whenever I recover it seems like good players can gimp me from a mile away, but when they recover I can't seem to keep them off the stage. Back to projectiles I try to make good use of bombs and I toss them up, towards the opponent so I can go for a grab, or jump and throw them down, but I never drop them with Zair since I seem to get punished a lot for even attempting it. Arrows and Rangs get shielded all day against any decent player that''s a challenge for me.

What are some strategies you guys have used to condition your opponents. I do watch footage to get a grasp of this but I think written opinions would also offer me some insight. I might not ever compete in a tournament. But I do wanna get close to a competitive level of skill. Any and all tips would be appreciated.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I can definitely see people not noticing it. Even commentators. Well, at least for the first few times, unless they know Link well enough to notice the first time lol. However I can definitely see this having use in teams. Especially in teams with more than two players in each. Imagine all of the sick team combos that are possible with phoenix bombs (Someone should seriously mess around with this). In theory, if one person in a team of 3 were to land a grab, Link/Gay could possibly drop a bomb whilst someone is there grab it after the explosion, where they throw the bomb again in order to true combo into kill move either by them, the Link/Gay, or the other team mate. It might even be possible to phoenix bomb a second time if done fast enough lol. But I'd imagine it being excruciatingly difficult to master a combo like that, so it shouldn't be seen in tournament play for a long, long time. That is, if it's even possible. I'll head to the lab to see if Link's bombs treat team mates the same way when they explode on a hurtbox.

Edit: They do, so it's definitely possible. Now we just need someone to pull off a phoenix bomb combo. I can't try it out though because I don't have anyone living close by who would want to attempt it, let alone play Smash with me. As such, it has to be someone else. @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Did you check with team attack on? Because I'm hitting an opponent with a Bomb, with me on one side and a team mate on the other, both of us within the blast radius, and the team mate is getting hurt by the Bomb blast while I'm fine. Unless of course you simply meant that other characters can use our Bombs and that the same rule applies to them when they use them, i.e. that bombs won't hurt the user if the bomb explodes due to detecting a hurtbox. But then, this applies to everyone, not just team mates.

 

[Elessar]

So I wanted to discuss game strategy since it's something that is reliant on your opponent and is different from match to match. From a scale of 1/10 as far as skill in this game is concerned, I'd say I'm an honest 6 maybe even a 7 but anyways, in FG today and I come across a good player (Which is rare and I don't quit after the first match I usually go best 2 out of 3). However, since good players are rare to find I keep playing until they quit since it allows me to slowly adapt to their play styles which in turn makes me that much better of a Link player.

I find that among the better players they usually have a habit that's something like this. If you're typically an aggressive player (Such as myself) they shield your attacks and immediately punish/grab or roll behind you. I tend to get punished a lot for just rushing in and going for a short hop Nair, Zair, or dash attack. But the more I played with this guy I started using pivot tilts and grabs as he kept rolling as soon as he'd think I was going to attack. Once he wasn't sure I was more able to hit him with projectiles and aerials but I still struggle to get the kill.

Whenever I recover it seems like good players can gimp me from a mile away, but when they recover I can't seem to keep them off the stage. Back to projectiles I try to make good use of bombs and I toss them up, towards the opponent so I can go for a grab, or jump and throw them down, but I never drop them with Zair since I seem to get punished a lot for even attempting it. Arrows and Rangs get shielded all day against any decent player that''s a challenge for me.

What are some strategies you guys have used to condition your opponents. I do watch footage to get a grasp of this but I think written opinions would also offer me some insight. I might not ever compete in a tournament. But I do wanna get close to a competitive level of skill. Any and all tips would be appreciated.

The biggest strat you can apply is to play smarter. Droping bombs with Zair isn't enough, you need to know when it's safe to do it and why are you doing it. Basically, there has to be a reason behind the things that you do. When you spam your opponent, why are you doing it? Is it to just dmg them, or are you trying to keep them away? Or force them to jump? Or to shield? Why are you attacking the way you're attacking basically. If you just throw crap at people, you'll have a hard time following it because you don't have a plan beyond "dmg him". This is the biggest thing when spamming, have a plan and purpose besides damaging the opponent. Of course, you need to know when it's safe to do so.

As for gimping, it's all about reading and going off stage. Don't be afraid of the off stage. If you just sit in place and charge and arrow you'll only gimp 1/10 times. You need to condition them and gimp; for instance, shoot an uncharged arrow near the ledge to force an airdodge and immediately go off stage for a nair gimp. If they dodged the arrow, your nair will get them because you either got them during the airdodge end lag or because they have to recover lest they go too low. If your nair missed, use to double jump to go for either another nair or a bair stage spike; Link will be able to recover from that with just the upB. Essentially, wait until your opponent commits to a move and punish it, but mainly, you cannot gimp every char and not every char is gimped in the same way. You need to learn the MU to know how to gimp. For example, our nair stops Fox and Falco's Phantasm, so try to intercept it with a nair. Gimping Ganondorf or Falcon with an aerial is very risky, so don't go for it every time, use your projectiles, and so forth.

Also, about your recovery, vary how you recover every time. This is MU again essentially since every char has a different way to gimp or how far they can go off stage and be safe. Try to always pull out a bomb as soon as hitstun is over, cover your approach with a gale, switch between thether recovery, high or low recovery. Keep your opponent guessing, that's the most important thing. If you always recover with a low upB you'll get gimped every single time by a decent player.

Internalizing all of this and applying it takes time, and many matches, so just stick with it and before you realize you'll be able to read your opponents.

 

[DarkDeity15]

So I wanted to discuss game strategy since it's something that is reliant on your opponent and is different from match to match. From a scale of 1/10 as far as skill in this game is concerned, I'd say I'm an honest 6 maybe even a 7 but anyways, in FG today and I come across a good player (Which is rare and I don't quit after the first match I usually go best 2 out of 3). However, since good players are rare to find I keep playing until they quit since it allows me to slowly adapt to their play styles which in turn makes me that much better of a Link player.

I find that among the better players they usually have a habit that's something like this. If you're typically an aggressive player (Such as myself) they shield your attacks and immediately punish/grab or roll behind you. I tend to get punished a lot for just rushing in and going for a short hop Nair, Zair, or dash attack. But the more I played with this guy I started using pivot tilts and grabs as he kept rolling as soon as he'd think I was going to attack. Once he wasn't sure I was more able to hit him with projectiles and aerials but I still struggle to get the kill.

Whenever I recover it seems like good players can gimp me from a mile away, but when they recover I can't seem to keep them off the stage. Back to projectiles I try to make good use of bombs and I toss them up, towards the opponent so I can go for a grab, or jump and throw them down, but I never drop them with Zair since I seem to get punished a lot for even attempting it. Arrows and Rangs get shielded all day against any decent player that''s a challenge for me.

What are some strategies you guys have used to condition your opponents. I do watch footage to get a grasp of this but I think written opinions would also offer me some insight. I might not ever compete in a tournament. But I do wanna get close to a competitive level of skill. Any and all tips would be appreciated.

Remember to mix up your recovery as well as cover it with aerials, bombs and rangs. I'd also recommend using Zair tether to get back onstage quickly with minimal risk of getting gimped. As for gimping others, go for FF Nair or Fair. It tends to catch people off guard due to Link's quick falling speed. If you want to drop a bomb without throwing out a Zair, then you can either drop the bomb closer to the ground/fast fall, or you can instant Z-drop the bomb the first frame (or first couple of frames) after leaving the ground to drop the bomb without Zairing at all, though it takes practice to perform consistently, so I recommend that you do. When it comes to dealing with aggressive players, try to punish their approaches with a SH Zair (it eats most projectiles as well) and space with Nairs, Bairs and especially bombs to keep them away and punish any risky approaches. Bombs are a pretty damn big part of Link's projectile/spacing game, so get good with them. Bomb planting is extremely effective at getting people nervous so long as you stay close to one, because if they approach with an attack, the bomb might explode on them. And if they approach with a dash grab, Link can respond by throwing the bomb at them. Overall, just play smarter as Elessar said and follow some of his suggestions as well.

Did you check with team attack on? Because I'm hitting an opponent with a Bomb, with me on one side and a team mate on the other, both of us within the blast radius, and the team mate is getting hurt by the Bomb blast while I'm fine. Unless of course you simply meant that other characters can use our Bombs and that the same rule applies to them when they use them, i.e. that bombs won't hurt the user if the bomb explodes due to detecting a hurtbox. But then, this applies to everyone, not just team mates.

Yep, it doesn't hurt your team mates if a bomb explodes on an opponent's hurtbox. That's basically what I was saying. I'm also assuming that another character can catch a phoenix bomb as well. It should work, but I'm not able to try it. If done consistently, it can open up a lot of sick combos in tournament play. Oddly enough though, I've yet to see any Links in teams yet, let alone any good ones. It's kinda surprising since I can see Link being quite a good ally in them.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yep, it doesn't hurt your team mates if a bomb explodes on an opponent's hurtbox. That's basically what I was saying.

Well it didn't work for me. Are you sure you had team attack (aka 'friendly fire') on? Was the team mate a Link by any chance? Was it the Hylian Shield that blocked the explosion?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Well it didn't work for me. Are you sure you had team attack (aka 'friendly fire') on? Was the team mate a Link by any chance? Was it the Hylian Shield that blocked the explosion?

Actually, I'm not sure if it team attack was on. You're welcome to try it yourself though. You sure the bomb didn't just hit the ground? As far as I can tell, Link's bomb will hurt team mates even when team attack is off if it hits the ground.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Btw, I just watched the Peach Smash Wii U combo video on the main page and it seems like Peach has a DTilt Spike similar to Link's? I'm wondering whether it could be used to set up some combos or something like the ones they showed for Peach.

Link to portion of video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJmTMd1lzjU&t=85

 

[Rizen]

Btw, I just watched the Peach Smash Wii U combo video on the main page and it seems like Peach has a DTilt Spike similar to Link's? I'm wondering whether it could be used to set up some combos or something like the ones they showed for Peach.

Can you link the video?

 

[ZSaberLink]

Can you link the video?

Edited the link into my original post =).

 

[Zelkam]

Well, now we know where Wheo copied the editing style for his combo video from

 

[ZSaberLink]

Sorry if this was already known, but Link's dash attack can hit airborne opponents? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWW0pGSfSY&t=502

 

[Rizen]

Sorry if this was already known, but Link's dash attack can hit airborne opponents? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvWW0pGSfSY&t=502

It was known. As long as the hit bubbles, or area of attack, connects all of Link's moves can hit air and grounded opponents. The dash attack hitbubbles are only in front of Link even though the sword arc shows above him too.
Some attacks will only hit grounded opponents like DK's down B hand slam but they have special coding for that.

__________________________
Edit, I've been testing some stuff out and found a good kill setup. It's not new but we haven't discussed it. Any hard landing (the opponent is 'injured falling' and bounces on the ground) that's not tecked can be arrow lock as long as the bow isn't fully charged. You have to hit with an arrow as they land during the bounce or 'wobble' animation. For those unfamiliar with locks, after the arrow hits the opponent can't roll or get up attack and are forced to do a normal stand get up, which is punishable. Even across a medium stage this leads to a free dash attack. The gale and normal boomerangs hit and can cause a hard landing at low-medium %s but they launch the opponent higher than Brawl so it's more dependent on the opponent missing a teck. At low %s (0-40ish, %s vary with characters' weights etc) a strong hit Nair (first few frames of attack) leads to a low launch that easily hard lands and gets arrow locked. At higher %s (40-100 roughly) a weak hit FF Nair leads to the low launch and hard landing.
What's nice is sniping landings with arrows is a good tactic to punish tecks so even if they teck you get a free 12% arrow. Fast fire custom arrows are easier to lock with because the speed but normal arrows work too.
______________________
On a separate note, I'm liking the fast fire arrow custom move more and more. They're great for stopping rush down characters like Sonic. They're a great spacing tool and only lose the long range tactics that charging normal arrows had. My new custom move set has normal spin attack, fast arrows, melee boomerang and normal bombs.
________________________
I think Link's grab only has a grab bubble on the claw and not on Link's hand anymore. Can someone confirm this? This sucks because rolls go right through it but maybe other tether grabs share the weakness.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Edit, I've been testing some stuff out and found a good kill setup. It's not new but we haven't discussed it. Any hard landing (the opponent is 'injured falling' and bounces on the ground) that's not tecked can be arrow lock as long as the bow isn't fully charged. You have to hit with an arrow as they land during the bounce or 'wobble' animation. For those unfamiliar with locks, after the arrow hits the opponent can't roll or get up attack and are forced to do a normal stand get up, which is punishable. Even across a medium stage this leads to a free dash attack. The gale and normal boomerangs hit and can cause a hard landing at low-medium %s but they launch the opponent higher than Brawl so it's more dependent on the opponent missing a teck. At low %s (0-40ish, %s vary with characters' weights etc) a strong hit Nair (first few frames of attack) leads to a low launch that easily hard lands and gets arrow locked. At higher %s (40-100 roughly) a weak hit FF Nair leads to the low launch and hard landing.
What's nice is sniping landings with arrows is a good tactic to punish tecks so even if they teck you get a free 12% arrow. Fast fire custom arrows are easier to lock with because the speed but normal arrows work too.

________________________
I think Link's grab only has a grab bubble on the claw and not on Link's hand anymore. Can someone confirm this? This sucks because rolls go right through it but maybe other tether grabs share the weakness.

Link definitely still has a hitbox on his hand when he Grabs. It's just that the overall hitbox for the Grab is out for less time. You know how the end of Link's Grab doesn't Grab people? Well at the exact moment when the claw stops grabbing people, the hand does too.

The trouble with the quickfire arrow is that it won't hit a lot of characters who are lying on the ground, so even if it is better for locking, it would be character specific.

Something I think we should look into is forced ledge slips causing forced tumble animations close to the ground which in turn causes untechable wobble animations that can be locked. But then all of this is known too.

 

[FSK]

I tried searching the forum for this information but couldn't find any previous mention of it.

If you soft-throw bombs on the ground, pikmins that return to olimar/alph(After being thrown) will pick up the bombs and bring them to olimar/alph. This often results in the olimar being forced to shield or taking damage.

keep this in mind next time you fight an olimar/alph. Bombplanting and soft-throwing ftw.

 

[Dumbfire]

There are no Olimar/Alph players around here, but that is just great! -- Actually, I've never seen one!

 

[Elessar]

OMG FSK, that is a wonderful piece on information. Damn glad to see you pop up again and contributing this.

 

[Deleted member]

Midair down throw Bombs have become one of my go-to things recently.

Bomb pull -> SH -> D-Throw Bomb -> Nair/Uair is something I've found quite nice for tacking on a nice bit of percent really quickly onstage.

At low or mid percent, you can follow it quickly with D-Smash/U-Smash Jab or U-tilt, these aren't true, but are fast enough I feel that they would still work unless you're fighting someone like Yoshi who has a stupid fast Nair or something.

Offstage D-throw bombs timed well can go into a Footstool pretty well thanks to the knockback until high percents. another thing I like to go for if I can get it.

 

[Batu]

[URL='https://www.google.com.do/search?rlz=1C1SFXN_enDO501DO501&espv=2&biw=1184&bih=565&q=I+was+searching+in+the+entire+treath+if+someone+already+did+this+discovery+but+didn%27t+see+anything,+but+if+this+is+already+mentioned+or+is+common+knowledge+my+apologies+then.&spell=1&sa=X&ei=cUgKVbmFBsa1ggT4rIDgBQ&ved=0CBgQvwUoAA']I was searching in the entire treath if someone already did this discover but didn't see anything, but if this is already mentioned or is common knowledge my apologies then.[/URL]
For those who love the c-stick in smash input, there is another way to make a soft bomb throw. You do a SH facing the opposite way you want to throw it, hold the joy-stick in the direction you want to throw the bomb and just before you land press "A". More simple: facing right direction SH>Hold joy-stick left>press A before land.
I know this is more slower than the pivot one but can become handy in some situations and if you are using the smash c-stick, is more easy to do than the pivot soft joy stick throw. What you guys think?

 

[Elessar]

I was searching in the entire treath if someone already did this discover but didn't see anything, but if this is already mentioned or is common knowledge my apologies then.
For those who love the c-stick in smash input, there is another way to make a soft bomb throw. You do a SH facing the opposite way you want to throw it, hold the joy-stick in the direction you want to throw the bomb and just before you land press "A". More simple: facing right direction SH>Hold joy-stick left>press A before land.
I know this is more slower than the pivot one but can become handy in some situations and if you are using the smash c-stick, is more easy to do than the pivot soft joy stick throw. What you guys think?

That has already been mentioned before, so yes we knew about it. It's God to mention it again though since as you proved, until someone takes over this thread or Pinkstar resurrects a lot of information is getting lost.

I'd say this is personal preference, though for speed sake maybe a-stick would be preferable.

 

[Batu]

Yeah i was almost sure that someone has to mention it before. But i read all the threat and just find the one that you run to the oposite direction and softly turn the joy-stick to the other side and press a. I hope that someone takes over like you said, cuz this side of the forum is like an encyclopedia to me, and you guys are doing a amazing work! Kudos to all of you.

 

[Dumbfire]

Midair down throw Bombs have become one of my go-to things recently.

Sadly bombstools are less effective this game because getting the Sourspot nair is more difficult and percentage-dependent. Cat pulled off a nice Bombstool to Dair last tournament but Dair is weak now, so those have lost their luster too. What I like to do at low percentages is Bombthrow from above to the first hit of Bair to Utilt (to whatever). I use it when reading rolls because bombs have a surprisingly big blast zone.

 

[Knife8193]

How many of you incorporate B reversed aerial Spin Attacks in your recoveries? I've just recently started used it more and it's fantastic. Anytime you see an opponent attempting to edgeguard/stage spike you, simply pop the other direction and they get caught in your Spin Attack. It also kills fairly early (~80%) since they are likely near the blast zone for the final hit. There's honestly no reason not to do it when recovering unless the opponent is waiting for you on the ledge, in which case go with the regular recovery so you can sweetspot the ledge faster or you actually need to cover a good horizontal distance.

 

[Deleted member]

How many of you incorporate B reversed aerial Spin Attacks in your recoveries? I've just recently started used it more and it's fantastic. Anytime you see an opponent attempting to edgeguard/stage spike you, simply pop the other direction and they get caught in your Spin Attack. It also kills fairly early (~80%) since they are likely near the blast zone for the final hit. There's honestly no reason not to do it when recovering unless the opponent is waiting for you on the ledge, in which case go with the regular recovery so you can sweetspot the ledge faster or you actually need to cover a good horizontal distance.

I typically airdodge -> Zair for any recoveries where I am horizontally away from the ledge.

I typically only use U-B when I am recovering from beneath the ledge, and down there I typically don't like to B-reverse unless I have enough vertical space to fall back towards the ledge once Spin Attack ends, don't like risking the bomb-jump failing.

 

[Elessar]

How many of you incorporate B reversed aerial Spin Attacks in your recoveries? I've just recently started used it more and it's fantastic. Anytime you see an opponent attempting to edgeguard/stage spike you, simply pop the other direction and they get caught in your Spin Attack. It also kills fairly early (~80%) since they are likely near the blast zone for the final hit. There's honestly no reason not to do it when recovering unless the opponent is waiting for you on the ledge, in which case go with the regular recovery so you can sweetspot the ledge faster or you actually need to cover a good horizontal distance.

I've begun incorporating it as of late and it is very useful. It catches most people complete out of guard. Again though, remember to mix it up since if baited it can be punished horribly.

 

[Zane the pure]

And remember, no one in the game sweetspots the ledge during a backwards recovery. If you use it intending to sweetspot you will be dissapointed.

 

[Knife8193]

Yeah it's a bit risky, but it does have a hitbox behind Link as well, so they can't wait too close to the ledge either. Feel a lot safer doing it with a bomb in hand though. I would say this is more of an anti-edgeguarding technique which helps since a lot of people will pursue Link offstage. But yeah, once you've done it a few times, the opponent will wise up to your tactics.

 

[Rizen]

I should try reverse upB; it's an interesting idea.

I haven't seen this posted yet so:
New mechanics involving bombs and reflectors: reflectors will now bounce bombs thrown strait up or down back at Link, unlike Brawl. Magnet type moves like Ness' PSI magnet will now absorb bomb's explosions and convert the damage into HP. Bombs will also fill G&W's bucket. tl;dr they're an energy attack. Link has no other energy attacks since boomerang and arrows (including customs) don't count.

A great ledge guarding tactic is SH>FF Nair off the stage. It creates a quick attack wall to stop low recoveries and is easy to quickly recover from after using.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I haven't seen this posted yet so:
New mechanics involving bombs and reflectors: reflectors will now bounce bombs thrown strait up or down back at Link, unlike Brawl. Magnet type moves like Ness' PSI magnet will now absorb bomb's explosions and convert the damage into HP. Bombs will also fill G&W's bucket. tl;dr they're an energy attack. Link has no other energy attacks since boomerang and arrows (including customs) don't count.

There's more to it than that. One tactic I used to use in, well every smash game before smash 4, was I'd run at the person with a bomb expecting them to try to reflect it, then I'd jump up and throw the bomb down at them. Now as you said, what will happen now is the bomb will be reflected and then come straight back up at you, but what you didn't say was that even if you throw the bomb so that it lands beside them with the intention of hitting them with the indirect explosion as the bomb hits the ground, the smash 4 reflectors will 'reflect' the bomb blast, i.e. the character holding up their reflector is completely and utterly safe from being hit by our bombs no matter what we do or how we use them -which is something never before seen. Even timed explosions will not touch them.

Edit: tl;dr - reflectors also 'reflect' explosions, not just bombs, for 'reasons'.

 

[Rizen]

^Right. Similarly Hylian shields will also block indirect explosions.

 

[Sabaca]

Edit, I've been testing some stuff out and found a good kill setup. It's not new but we haven't discussed it. Any hard landing (the opponent is 'injured falling' and bounces on the ground) that's not tecked can be arrow lock as long as the bow isn't fully charged. You have to hit with an arrow as they land during the bounce or 'wobble' animation. For those unfamiliar with locks, after the arrow hits the opponent can't roll or get up attack and are forced to do a normal stand get up, which is punishable. Even across a medium stage this leads to a free dash attack. The gale and normal boomerangs hit and can cause a hard landing at low-medium %s but they launch the opponent higher than Brawl so it's more dependent on the opponent missing a teck. At low %s (0-40ish, %s vary with characters' weights etc) a strong hit Nair (first few frames of attack) leads to a low launch that easily hard lands and gets arrow locked. At higher %s (40-100 roughly) a weak hit FF Nair leads to the low launch and hard landing.
What's nice is sniping landings with arrows is a good tactic to punish tecks so even if they teck you get a free 12% arrow. Fast fire custom arrows are easier to lock with because the speed but normal arrows work too.

On extremely low percent ftilt can also be an setup for the arrow lock.

Also you can punish harder than simply doing a dashattack when using the range of an completely uncharged arrow. If you do the weak Nair set up at higher % you can follow up with an fsmash and kill pretty early.(I guess about 60~80% near the ledge?) Below that you can use Links combos to do more damage than with an dashattack. e.g. 2 hits of dair (wich can be followed up by a utilt) or dtilt->uair at lower percents or at least use a move that does more damage than the 14% of dashattack. If you have a bomb in your hand while getting the lock near the ledge , you can kill many charakters at almost any % with a bomb->dair spike.
Example: A possible but very rare setup on Mario (5%-9%) would be
pulling a bomb->crouch->ftilt->hardlanding->arrow lock->bombthrow->dairspike and Mario can't get back to the ledge except there is an oppurtunity to walljump.

 

[Knife8193]

So looking at that locked thread, I couldn't help but wonder if anyone actually uses gale guarding efficiently? If so what MUs would it be great in? Off the top of my head, Marth/Lucina/Ness/Ike seem to be screwed pretty bad, but with the gale being weaker in this game and somewhat hard to angle, is it really a better edgeguarding option than the other edgeguarding tools (short hop dair, nair, bair stage spike, etc.)?

 

[Elessar]

based on my personal experience and thoughts, it's not really that worthy. It looks flashy and that could be the only real reason to using it other than the usual edgeguarding options. True, in the case of Marth, Lucina, Ike, Ness (and I'd add Ganondorf, Falcon, Bowser, Mario, Luigi, Bowser Jr, ZSS, Robin, WFT, Shulk, and Dr Mario) it can be quite a safe edgeguarding tool, if highly situational. As everything, it's probably something good to know how to do, but I wouldn't rely on it over more certain and sure (as in, easier to pull off and more effective) strats.

I don't see it as better functionally speaking, just flashier (which sadly I know is the driving force behind too many players out there).

 

[Rizen]

The wind effect is more useful if it's already out and you knock the opponent offstage and intercept them. Gale guarding is usually worse than simply sniping the opponent with an arrow or Nair-ing them.
There are certain characters who's recovery and play style can get screwed up bad by wind and water. Ness's upB, Zelda's Dins and Farow's both freefall, MK's specials all cause freefalling (right?), etc. But it's sill very situational. Wind gimps are more of an occasional bonus for having the boomerang onscreen. Tether recoveries will help Link not accidentally hit the opponent and renew their upB.

 

[Dumbfire]

I'd say MK has too many recovering options, possibly leading even to gimps on *us*, to reliably galeguard him. We may be able to hit him out of his Side B recovery neatly with something though -- I've done it and it was very useful but I've completely forgotten with what.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Re-posting from the social. I'm talking about different times that the bomb is active and inactive.

Once the bomb is stationary (inactive) it will no longer detect hurtboxes, even if you make it move again by pushing it off a platform with your character model or pushing it with a windbox etc. The bomb can also become inactive momentarily if it is hit by something not powerful enough to make it explode, it's like the bomb can go through hitlag and hitsun. As for bombs hitting shields... that's a bit more complicated. In fact it's really complicated, for no apparent reason. This is one time that I'm happy people don't bother reading through my long posts XD, because what comes next isn't very good news for us. When a bomb hits a shield, the bomb doesn't become inactive perse, or even necessarilly as I'll explain further on, but in general, yeah, it becomes completely inactive for the duration. The bomb will always be able to hit other opponent's hurtboxes once it bounces of someone else's shield, but it actually becomes 'inactive' for the person who shielded it, with one exception which I'll go into in a second. This means that in most situations, if your opponent shields the bomb, they can have it inside their character model after it has bounced upwards off their shield, as it is coming back down, and all the time while it is bouncing on the ground. So don't throw the bomb at people's shields unless the fuse has been cooking for a bit if they are aware of this, as it basically means, hey, here's a bomb, you can either ignore it or feel free to throw it back at me. But then, what happened in the vid, right? The bomb was shielded, it bounced on the ground, and then it blew up when it came into contact with Sheik's hurtbox before the timed fuse was up, so how do I explain that? Well here's where it gets silly. If the opponent power-shields the bomb (not the bomb blast, but the bomb itself), the bomb will remain active against them. In other words, people get punished for power shielding because Sakurai said so. If you want to test it yourself, try it against an opponent who shields out of crouch and throw it down at them as this makes it easier to power-shield the bomb. This is one reason why Gay's bombs can actually be better because if his bombs are shielded with a normal shield, they will at least explode when they hit the ground. Link can make up for this though with his shorter fuses, so a lot of the time Link's bombs will work out better even if they are shielded normally because they will often explode before they even touch the ground.

 

[Elessar]

Re-posting from the social. I'm talking about different times that the bomb is active and inactive.

Once the bomb is stationary (inactive) it will no longer detect hurtboxes, even if you make it move again by pushing it off a platform with your character model or pushing it with a windbox etc. The bomb can also become inactive momentarily if it is hit by something not powerful enough to make it explode, it's like the bomb can go through hitlag and hitsun. As for bombs hitting shields... that's a bit more complicated. In fact it's really complicated, for no apparent reason. This is one time that I'm happy people don't bother reading through my long posts XD, because what comes next isn't very good news for us. When a bomb hits a shield, the bomb doesn't become inactive perse, or even necessarilly as I'll explain further on, but in general, yeah, it becomes completely inactive for the duration. The bomb will always be able to hit other opponent's hurtboxes once it bounces of someone else's shield, but it actually becomes 'inactive' for the person who shielded it, with one exception which I'll go into in a second. This means that in most situations, if your opponent shields the bomb, they can have it inside their character model after it has bounced upwards off their shield, as it is coming back down, and all the time while it is bouncing on the ground. So don't throw the bomb at people's shields unless the fuse has been cooking for a bit if they are aware of this, as it basically means, hey, here's a bomb, you can either ignore it or feel free to throw it back at me. But then, what happened in the vid, right? The bomb was shielded, it bounced on the ground, and then it blew up when it came into contact with Sheik's hurtbox before the timed fuse was up, so how do I explain that? Well here's where it gets silly. If the opponent power-shields the bomb (not the bomb blast, but the bomb itself), the bomb will remain active against them. In other words, people get punished for power shielding because Sakurai said so. If you want to test it yourself, try it against an opponent who shields out of crouch and throw it down at them as this makes it easier to power-shield the bomb. This is one reason why Gay's bombs can actually be better because if his bombs are shielded with a normal shield, they will at least explode when they hit the ground. Link can make up for this though with his shorter fuses, so a lot of the time Link's bombs will work out better even if they are shielded normally because they will often explode before they even touch the ground.

I had already noted this while playing other people and it had made me wonder on the true usefulness or true use of soft thrown bombs. I mean, they still exert a psychological pressure and give us a but of stage control, but I had noticed that a shielded bomb won't explode when coming into contact with my opponent, nor would a a soft thrown bomb. I have stopped soft throwing bombs as much because of this though I still do it due to the psychological pressure as I said.

What should our bomb meta look like then? It looks like we need to play a bit more like snake sometimes and soft throw bombs when the times I'd about to explode. So, pull out a bomb wait 2 or 3 seconds and throw. Does this sound right?