Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[ConCeal12]

On the topic of soft bombing, I worked on trying to find a way to soft bomb without having C-stick on atk. I personally like my smash stick so I try to keep it that way. What I ended up doing was using a jump canceled tilt throw on the opposite direction I ran. With even small practice I can pull off a soft bomb consistently. It even works in place. It's just a matter of making sure your direction stick is on tilt.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Charizard works at 2%.

........

I main both link and charizard... I'm so torn

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I main both link and charizard... I'm so torn

I'm testing that one when I can to see what Zard can do...otherwise .

 

[KenMeister]

One thing for sure, Lunk's matchup chart is going to be a polarized mess. lol

 

[ZSaberLink]

One thing for sure, Lunk's matchup chart is going to be a polarized mess. lol

Why is that exactly?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Can diddy z drop a banana to escape the jab chain?
Can pacman, rob, villager, z drop their items to escape? Also can duck hunt squeeze out a bomb and can yoshi super armor jump out of the jab chain?

Ok.
Z-dropping items is interesting, and in some cases it will help you to escape. When Diddy is on the lower end of the percent range, he can't drop the banana at all. It's only when it comes to the pure hitstun stage (when they are hit out of the air) that the item can be Z-dropped when you are hit. But there is a limit; once you reach a certain percent, you can no longer even z-drop items on hit. I'll explain for each character below and then add the information to the main post. I won't bother going into the characters who have held items that eventually explode for obvious reasons.

-Peach: Works from 66%. If Peach is holding a turnip it works from 86%. The turnip can be z-dropped on hit, and if Peach is close enough to Link, it will bop him in the head.

-Diddy: Works from 40%. If Diddy is holding a banana, there is a small window of potential opportunity between 78% and 87% in which you can z-drop the banana on hit (from 88% onwards you cannot z-drop the banana; please keep in mind that these percents are tested and found on fresh Jabs). Link will clash with the banana which may throw off the player's timing, but a perfect Link can still jab you again before you can do anything to avoid it. This is all of course assuming that you are still holding the banana by this stage and that you haven't been forced to drop it.

-Sheik: Works from 64%. By the time Sheik is hit off the ground for long enough, you're on kill percents and the hitstun is way too much. No z-dropping grenades for you.

-Robin: Works from 68%. If Robin is holding the Leffen sword (or one of the books) it works from 89%. The item can be z-dropped on hit to make Link clash with it, at which point you have enough time to double jump and even catch the item for style points before Link can recover and Jab you. Otherwise it will just hit Link if you are close.

-ROB: Works from 72%. If Rob is holding Gyro it works from 94%. The gyro can be Z-dropped on hit which makes Link clash with the gyro, allowing you just enough time to double jump, which can help to escape. The DJ will be Jabbed before you can airdodge but you will be put up higher.

-Villager: Works from 68%. If Villager is holding a chunk of wood it works from 90%. Villager can z-drop the piece of wood making Link clash with it, allowing Villager the chance to double jump. A perfect Link will still be able to Jab you before you can airdodge, but even if that happens the very next Jab will miss because the DJ will bring you up higher allowing you to Up-B out.

-Pac-Man: Works from 68%. If Pac-Man is holding a item (I just looked at cherries) it works from 89%. Pac-Man can z-drop the item on hit and the cherry, for example, will clash with Link's sword allowing you just enough time to double jump and airdodge to escape the next hit.

-Mega Man: Works from 27%. By the time Mega Man is hit off the ground high enough, the hitstun is too strong. No z-dropping blades for you.



As for DHD, yeah, he can totally get the can out to blow everyone up which means,
-DHD: Works from 87% due to the Can getting him out. At this point it's probably not worth it anyway because you have to be perfect and you're only going to get a few hits in.

I'l go update the main post with the above stuff.

 

[KenMeister]

Why is that exactly?

Pretty much what I mean is look at Brawl Dedede's MU chart and see how much of a mess it is, it's no wonder they had trouble debating his tier placement. That'll most likely be the case with Link should the jab cancel end up being a metagame thing and not end up getting patched out.

 

[Lawz.]

Pretty much what I mean is look at Brawl Dedede's MU chart and see how much of a mess it is, it's no wonder they had trouble debating his tier placement. That'll most likely be the case with Link should the jab cancel end up being a metagame thing and not end up getting patched out.

Well that's because D3 had a chaingrab that made characters below him unviable, but he himself was also unviable. So what helped him, didn't really help him anyway. It just made it worse for others, such as DK.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Dudes, so I've been using the soft throw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqLCgbazuGs a whole bunch ever since I switched to the a-stick, and I just have to talk about it. Not just the fact that it's insanely good, but I wanted to make sure everyone knows how it works and also all of the different ways that it can be done. The vid linked above, while informative and amazing, is slightly off.

First of all, to clarify, the reason why the soft throw works has nothing to do with the slide back in the opposite direction making the throw somehow have less momentum or something. The only difference is in the arch that the Bomb travels when soft thrown forwards as opposed to being soft thrown backwards. When soft thrown forwards, the bomb has a slightly higher arch while when it is soft thrown backwards it is a flatter throw. To see proof of this, go to the stage Jungle Hijinxs, stand over to the right of the main stage, use the a-stick (or just the a button) to throw a bomb forwards towards the leafy platform on the right and it will land on the platform. Now turn around, and use the a-stick to throw a Bomb backwards towards that same platform and it will not land on it.

Because this tech has nothing to do with momentum going backwards, this means three things. The first is that, as alluded to above, you can just use the a-stick from a standing position and throw the bomb backwards and it will land on the ground. The second is that if you want you can do the input for the backwards JC throw instantly, such that it doesn't even look like you moved when in fact you turned around twice very quickly, and it will still work. Furthermore, it means that you can run or dash forwards, hit backwards, and then interrupt the beginning frames of your turn around animation with a JC throw back in the same direction and you'll still get the soft throw effect. If you already knew this, very good, I didn't until just then.

Now for the rant about how good this tech is. The soft throw means that you have an active hitbox out for much longer. While it is bouncing on the ground, it will explode on impact and pop up on shield, and obviously a moment later it will explode of its own accord. Having as many active hitboxes out for as long as possible at any one time is absolutely essential for overwhelming pressure spam. If your opponent is afraid to move or drop their shield, that's good. I like to think of these Bomb mines as being similar to Snakes Nades. Sure, Snakes nades had a larger hitbox and they did more damage and they could be grenade stripped, but Link's soft throw has an active hitbox that will explode on contact when thrown out and Link has a plethora of other tools to keep the pressure on. The zoning and pressure and stage control potential for this tech is actually ridiculous, and by gosh I just had to say something about it. I hope you didn't mind even if this was all old news to you.

Thanks for the explanation. Finally got this working in training mode (esp. the latter part), so I'm excited to try this out against folks =). I admit though, I've gotten it working on one side (from the right), but I have a hard time from the left side still (due to the positioning of the stick and my jump button... oh well.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Pretty much what I mean is look at Brawl Dedede's MU chart and see how much of a mess it is, it's no wonder they had trouble debating his tier placement. That'll most likely be the case with Link should the jab cancel end up being a metagame thing and not end up getting patched out.

Yeah, but Link's jab "tech" thing isn't what makes him Link. People are just now coming to check out Link because now he has some cheapass bull**** he can abuse, but he's been a solid character before this discovery. It's not like the chart on who he can use this lame "tech" on will dictate his match ups.

I don't like the way this came to be, but if more people start using Link cause if this jab thing, let them. More people means a more defined meta for Link. A more defined meta makes a better character.
So now that everyone and their mom is gonna play link cause of this new discovery let me just get this out of the way...
"I was maining Link before it was cool!!!!!"

 

[Elessar]

Yeah, but Link's jab "tech" thing isn't what makes him Link. People are just now coming to check out Link because now he has some cheapass bull**** he can abuse, but he's been a solid character before this discovery. It's not like the chart on who he can use this lame "tech" on will dictate his match ups.

I don't like the way this came to be, but if more people start using Link cause if this jab thing, let them. More people means a more defined meta for Link. A more defined meta makes a better character.
So now that everyone and their mom is gonna play link cause of this new discovery let me just get this out of the way...
"I was maining Link before it was cool!!!!!"

Don't flatter yourself too much, Link is still Link and most of these work at high percentages. You still need to get Diddy and Sheik to 70%+ to pull this off so you still need to be able to Play Link's neutral game which is extremely unforgiving and has quite the steep learning curve. A lot of people will come, but even if they leave this Jab lock in it still doesn't grant free wins. They'll come, test, fail, lose and leave. At least most will.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Don't flatter yourself too much, Link is still Link and most of these work at high percentages. You still need to get Diddy and Sheik to 70%+ to pull this off so you still need to be able to Play Link's neutral game which is extremely unforgiving and has quite the steep learning curve. A lot of people will come, but even if they leave this Jab lock in it still doesn't grant free wins. They'll come, test, fail, lose and leave. At least most will.

Not trying to flatter myself. I've been playing Link for quite some time, I know full well what he's capable of and that he's not an easy mode character (though I don't think he's particularly difficult either). I don't know about you, but sealing the deal with Link has always been my main weakness. Jab to dsmash is probably my most used way of securing a kill which usually starts killing in the 100%s. if I can start doing that 30% earlier (for diddy, 60% earlier) it will make my life a whole lot easier. Not trying to blow this "tech" out of proportion, but for me, it's kind of a big deal.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Right so I've been putting off the Shulk monado variations and how they fare against the Jab Link thus far, but no more. I was kindly informed by @ Berserker. that they will all have an effect except speed (and this was in fact correct). The current one I have is Shulk with no monado, which I think they call vanilla or something, but I'll just call default.

-Shulk Default and Speed: Works from 70%. (You can't DJ)
-Shulk Jump: Works from 12%. (You land before you can DJ and then can't Shield in time)
-Shulk Shield: Works from 68%. (You land before you can DJ and then can't Shield in time)
-Shulk Buster: Works from 48%. (You can't DJ)
-Shulk Smash: Works from 34%. (You can't DJ)

Not the results I was expecting, but there you have it. I'll go update the main post with this info.

 

[Berserker.]

Whelp. There goes using Jump. Looks like I'll stick to speed/vanilla in neutral

 

[Rizen]

How many people have used the jab cancel lock in actual games? I've been trying it vs CPUs and the timing window is very, very tight. I think people will learn if they spam a quick escape option most characters will break out if the Link player isn't perfect with every jab cycle.
I think doing the lock consistently for a lot of damage in actual games won't happen often but it will be useful for a few jabs then a finisher for landing KO moves and a little extra damage.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've been doing just fine with it.
It differs in difficulty from character to character.

Edit: I assume you're using the a-stick method right?

 

[ConCeal12]

You get more leeway with higher percents so you can use it as a kill at 100%+, because if you think about it a kill move for link can be a jab now.

 

[Rizen]

^Link could always chain jab 1 into a kill move; that's nothing new.

I've been doing just fine with it.
It differs in difficulty from character to character.

Yeah some characters are much easier than others. I think the quick characters with good escape options have very tight windows though. Bowser is very easy to lock but Diddy (@40%) seems to escape easily if the timing isn't perfect for example. I think characters who can escape from above because smaller hurt boxes or floatyness have the easiest time escaping.

 

[Zelkam]

@ Fox Is Openly Deceptive you deserve a vacation after all this lab work

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I had wanted to do a kind of vague range idea at some point. Like, group characters into "will get popped up fairly early on and escape naturally" and "is in it for the long haul" for example. This would be more of an experience type of thing rather than a cold data mining job, so any help on this project of assessing the difficulty and estimated range on all the characters would be very much appreciated. All tests should be done in real matches real time and your opinion should reflect your personal experience in how your attempts went. I'm not sure what the categories should be yet. Or perhaps we should just have some kind of vague assessment for each character.
If all goes well, I'll put together a thread with all your posts quoted etc. along with my big post of data as it currently stands.
So yeah, for those who wanted to help, here's your big chance. Anyone that has the timing down can help. Just jump into some matches with a character and their percent in your head and write up how you felt it went. Roughly how many Jabs did you land before they escaped? How long do you think they could have been Jabbed for? All that stuff.

Edit: Oh and I'm thinking that high level cpus are probably fine. Humans who know what to try to do are obviously better, but still, we're looking specifically at differences in characters here, so the information will still definitely be useful.

 

[Rizen]

Ideally a human partner who knows to mash the victim character's quickest escape option would be best but I agree CPUs have good reflexes and tech skill for escaping.

I've been looking at the frame data to try and find the optimal timing:
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
BEGIN link
**********
Jab1
Frame 7- 8: 2.5% 35b/37g 80° Slash
Frame 7- 8: 2.5% 35b/37g 95° Slash
Frame 7- 8: 2.5% 30b/37g 361° Slash
Max Damage: 2.5%
Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 10

So, tell me if I'm misinterpreting this, it looks like Link should jab>buffer crouch and repeat every 10 frames. So for jab set to 'A': A>control stick down>release control stick> and repeat this cycle every 10 frames.

 

[Blatikin]

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this but the jab lock is very easy to do if you set the right stick to attack and flick diagonally down consecutively while holding down on the left stick. I think it even cuts the inputs in half. Not sure about that part though.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Dude, @ Rizen , I would highly recommend that you stop trying to do the Jab Link the manual way with the manual crouch and release inputs every time. Just no. You're doing yourself a disservice. I thought that might have been why you were having trouble. (Note the edit in one of my previous posts.)
Switch to a-stick, then when you get a Jab, hold down on the joystick and continually tap diagonally down on the a-stick at the right time. This is easy mode. Practise getting the angle right every time to avoid d-tilt or f-tilt, practice the timing, and instantly you'll notice the difference.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Another advantage to a-stick is that you can buffer full-hop uairs by pressing up on the stick while in jumpsquat. Standard configuration would give you a usmash instead. But since you only have a few frames to get the uair autocancel, it's really useful to buffer.

edit: I also set R to jump (I use L for shield) making R + c-up really easy, plus R + up + B if for some godforsaken reason I want to upB out of shield.

 

[Rizen]

Dude, @ Rizen , I would highly recommend that you stop trying to do the Jab Link the manual way with the manual crouch and release inputs every time. Just no. You're doing yourself a disservice. I thought that might have been why you were having trouble. (Note the edit in one of my previous posts.)
Switch to a-stick, then when you get a Jab, hold down on the joystick and continually tap diagonally down on the a-stick at the right time. This is easy mode. Practise getting the angle right every time to avoid d-tilt or f-tilt, practice the timing, and instantly you'll notice the difference.

Using the non A-stick might be easier for Pro controller and game pad users because the lack of vertices around the right stick (). Personally, I really hate the pro controller but can't get a game cube controller adapter yet . But that's beside the point.

My point was the timing seems to be repeat the cycle every 10 frames.

I've been looking at the frame data to try and find the optimal timing:
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
BEGIN link
**********
Jab1
Frame 7- 8: 2.5% 35b/37g 80° Slash
Frame 7- 8: 2.5% 35b/37g 95° Slash
Frame 7- 8: 2.5% 30b/37g 361° Slash
Max Damage: 2.5%
Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 10

 

[Lavani]

My point was the timing seems to be repeat the cycle every 10 frames.

That isn't what that data is telling you. The jab state transition simply means "press jab again at any point from frame 10 to the end of the jab's animation (which is at least 30f, maybe a bit longer) and you'll get jab2". The jab's actual FAF is at frame 20, where you'll be crouching to cancel the jab transition window so you can do jab1 again.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

"10 frames" I'm not sure. I don't understand everything about the inner workings of the game in terms of coding (though I was forced to learn a lot when writing the dictionary), I understand it in terms of experience, experimentation, and theories, and that tends to get me by. Case in point, in reference to the post that just appeared above me by @ Lavani ; the Jab is cancelled the very frame you begin to start going down into your crouch, which is well before the actual crouch, meaning you can start the next Jab 1 as soon as you see the first frame of the different animation caused by the crouch. (Just to clarify.)

Why exactly does it help you to know that something is 'X frames' apart though? Can you use this information? Or will it come down to personal experience in the end?

I pity you for not having a GC controller adapter. I myself am sitting smug on two.
Honestly though, if you can't do it with the a-stick, I really don't see much point in trying to learn this tech as the precision required in order for it to be useful is probably too much for manual crouching inputs.

 

[Rizen]

That isn't what that data is telling you. The jab state transition simply means "press jab again at any point from frame 10 to the end of the jab's animation (which is at least 30f, maybe a bit longer) and you'll get jab2". The jab's actual FAF is at frame 20, where you'll be crouching to cancel the jab transition window so you can do jab1 again.

Can you post a link to where that data is? The frame data I have doesn't have the ending frames.


@ Foxy, Yeah I wish GC controller adapters would come out again. The price gouging is ridiculous, asking 4 or 5 times what they normally would cost. I'm not in a well populated region and no store around me are receiving shipments .

Why exactly does it help you to know that something is 'X frames' apart though? Can you use this information? Or will it come down to personal experience in the end?

To be optimal we should be as frame perfect as possible so knowing the exact timing would help. Also if I know what rhythm to go by it's easier to do.
I tried looking at the animation in 1/4 speed and jab 1 ends (ie when he can crouch or shield) when Link's sword stops coming back to Link at the end of the swipe. Pairing this with the frame data:
Jab1
Frame 7- 8: 2.5% 35b/37g 80° Slash
Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 10

That probably does happen on frame 10 since jab hits about when the sword is fully extended toward the opponent on frame 7 so frame 10 or 11 is about when his sword stops curving in at the end of the swiping motion, shortly after the light blue energy disappears.
Visually we can judge the timing based on Link's sword position or arm gesture depending on which way Link is facing. It's less accurate though and we might be losing a frame or 2.

But his jab rate does seem slower than 5 or 6 times a second so that's probably wrong. This is why exact frame data for each cycle would be helpful.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Or you could just go into training and start jabbing someone faster and faster till it messes up, then you know you went too fast but have an idea of how fast you can go, and then you can try to stay as close to that point without crossing it for as long as possible, and then you've got the timing down with muscle memory.

 

[Lavani]

Can you post a link to where that data is? The frame data I have doesn't have the ending frames.

It's in the animation files, which isn't extracted data we have yet. I recorded it and checked myself:

Shielding animation starts on 20f. If you mash out the jab2 as fast as possible you'll see it starts earlier than this.

 

[Rizen]

^About 3 jabs per second with that timing. I admit that seems more accurate than 6 times a second.

Or you could just go into training and start jabbing someone faster and faster till it messes up, then you know you went too fast but have an idea of how fast you can go, and then you can try to stay as close to that point without crossing it for as long as possible, and then you've got the timing down with muscle memory.

We'd still be losing a few frames through human inconsistency/inaccuracy. Having perfect frame inputs could mean a difference in starting and ending %s. I'm into watching speedrunning so I like optimizing frames, lol. The general timing isn't too hard to get but knowing frames would be good to optimize timing.

Let's say it's 3 jabs per second with a few frames leeway. That's about if you set this metronome to 176 beats per minute: http://www.metronomeonline.com/ This seems about right. An easy rhythm to practice.

 

[Zelkam]

The frame perfect version would be "zaw locking"

(Is this joke getting old yet?)

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Yeah, using the stick method with a pro controller isn't optimal. I just keep practicing with the button method, and my timing gets better every time.

 

[FGC-Oni]

Dude, @ Rizen , I would highly recommend that you stop trying to do the Jab Link the manual way with the manual crouch and release inputs every time. Just no. You're doing yourself a disservice. I thought that might have been why you were having trouble. (Note the edit in one of my previous posts.)
Switch to a-stick, then when you get a Jab, hold down on the joystick and continually tap diagonally down on the a-stick at the right time. This is easy mode. Practise getting the angle right every time to avoid d-tilt or f-tilt, practice the timing, and instantly you'll notice the difference.

I play primarily on 3DS, so I have to been on point with my Circle Pad and A button.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

You guys are going to want to check this out. I've cut out and slightly altered some parts of the quotes so you get the idea. (I hope you don't mind @TheReflexWonder)

If your character is capable of footstooling someone within 10 frames of pressing Jump, you will do it, and as soon as possible. If you press a Jump command every 10 frames or faster, anyone that gets in range of your potential footstool will be footstooled on the frame they get in range as long as you keep pressing Jump repeatedly.

Since Ledge Jumps don't allow people to buffer commands out of them, this makes footstools a fine choice for punishing Ledge Jumps. This actually makes for a great way to cover multiple ledge options, as footstool -> e.g. a Ganon Down-B beats Ledge Jump, and the low double-jump that happens when you're not in range lets you avoid Ledge Attack and punish both Ledge Attack and Ledge Climb (and, likely, a ledge hopped aerial for a spike KO!) if you're timing it to hit a Ledge Climb.

Opponents using Ledge Attack and Ledge Climb aren't affected by footstools even during their endlag, but if you time a double-jump to catch Ledge Jump, you'll either footstool it and get a free punish on that, or you'll whiff and go into your double-jump.

Ledge Jumps usually finish at around Frame 12, Ledge Attacks are vulnerable around Frames 22-42, and Ledge Climbs are vulnerable for a couple frames between Frames 30-35 (varies from character to character). This means that if you go for the timing to punish Ledge Climb, you will also punish Ledge Attack, so you simultaneously cover three options at once on reaction while only really having to "aim" for Ledge Climb.

Mash "Jump" when someone starts a ledge option, then react to whatever happens. You're just trying to time it so that you catch Ledge Jumps with a footstool. If they don't Ledge Jump, time an attack to punish Ledge Climb and you'll hit them whether they picked Ledge Attack or Ledge Climb.

Anyway, do I need to point out how this can easily be utilised by Link with his small DJ, his fast fall, his Dair, and his Bombs? There are a multitude of ways we can do this and I think it's brilliant. Heck, we might even be able to cover the roll on-stage too.

Now a thought just occurred to me. Imagine combining this with the well timed Tether Trump and the fact that it forces the opponent to use a ledge option with you in the perfect position to catch them out of it with a footstool, or else get trumped.

It's a lot to wrap your head around, but technically, we may have all bases covered, guaranteeing a punish. Link's edge guarding/punishing game could be one of the best. We need to look into this.

 

[Zelkam]

For 2-3 weeks the Link boards we're starting to become a barren waste land, and then within the past few days our metagame thread has exploded. There's so many new ideas and techs coming in its making my head hurt.

 

[ItoI6]

I tried the jab infinite today offline in actual matches and I could only get it to start working at about 20+% to the ones that were listed earlier in the thread, like at about 55+% on diddy. I'm fairly certain I was doing it perfectly too, but maybe you just need superb timing idk. If you guys try it on level 9 cpus I'm confident they will shield against you until you have about a 20% gap between the listed percents. It seemed inescapable, but the person I was playing was able to escape by DIing into the the sword until the hand part of link's jab swipe hit them barely out of range, but he only managed to do it twice or so out of 20+ attempts on my part. It does seem totally inescapable once you get it going though so thats cool.

http://www.twitch.tv/sandiegofgc/b/621042474

at 28:00 I got the infinite in this friendly until he knocked my controller away lol. tbh its also really easy to do if you practice it for like 5 minutes.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok, I've looked into what I was talking about in my previous post and the tether trump thing doesn't seem to work out. The timing is off.

As for Link's ability to take advantage of the footstool thing, well I'll let you decide. I'm personally less confident in it after checking things out, but if you have the time you should definitely read through some of the results I got.

So your opponent Grabs the ledge, you then predict when they will return on-stage with a ledge option and Dash in then mash jump if not ever so slightly before, then at the same time that they act.

Scenario 1. The opponent does a ledge hop.
Result: They will get footstooled if you mash jump fast enough. Out of this you can obviously get a Dair, a Nair, or a Bomb to any aerial.

Scenario 2. They input a ledge attack at the same time that a ledgehop would have been footstooled.
Result: Well if you react in time such that at the peak of your double jump you notice that they were not footstooled and are still below you, possibly looking like they are attacking, if you use a Nair or Dair and fast fall it, it will hit the opponent before they can shield. Obviously if you have a Bomb, throwing it down will work too.

Scenario 3. They do a ledge get-up at the same time that a ledgehop would have been footstooled.
Result: If you try to fast fall Nair or Dair out of the DJ they will shield in time. If you have a Bomb ... I can't believe what I am seeing. I know why I'm seeing it but, this is so stupid, in a bad way. Let me just put it this way, if you want to hit someone with a Bomb who is standing up from the ledge and then buffering shield, the only way to hit them is for the Bomb to explode by hitting the ground or miraculously of it's own accord. What I am seeing right now is a Bomb literally inside a character, and then the moment that their intangibility runs out, with one frame of vulnerability mind you, they are able to shield the explosion caused by the Bomb reacting to their hurtbox. The reason for this of course is that Bombs don't explode immediately on impact. The upshot of all this is, Bombs are pretty much useless against someone standing up from the ledge and shielding. Well, as bad as it is, it's a good thing to be aware of. There's no issue with anything else of course, just the Bombs.

Scenario 4. They do a Ledge roll at the same time that a ledgehop would have been footstooled.
Result: Honestly, I think that realistically, they would get away. You'd have to react to the roll by the peak of you DJ, then Bair and immediately fast fall and immediately drift backwards, and the second hit of Bair will hit before they can shield. Nothing else would be much good for you unless you half anticipated a roll and so did a DJ sort of backwards, in which case you could then proceed as normal.


Anyway, it seemed a waste not to post such information, so there you have it.

 

[Elessar]

So I have finally switched to the astick and I have to say that I miss the ease smash stick brought to pivot smashing. I love to pivot smash, so it'll take some time getting used to it again.

Anyways, I was testing craq walking/pivot boosting now that I have the astick and I noticed that there still seems to be a slightly boost forward. Has anyone else tried this? Can we verify it?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey so I have three things I wanted to bring to everyone's attention.

The first is the fact that we can Jab out of a Run (not a Dash). Ok so it's not directly out of the run, but it's close enough. Basically, you can do any action part way through a 'skid' (which is the animation you go into when you stop running by putting the joystick in neutral or holding down). Link in particular is really good at this. Now I wonder how we could use this XD? If you need to cover a decent distance and punish something for example, you can do so by running, (holding down in preparation) skidding and Jabbing, and Jab has become an amazing punisher thanks to our new Jab tech. You can read more about doing things out of a skid here http://smashboards.com/threads/skid...-pm-crouch-canceled-runs-video-inside.368971/

Second of all, I noticed that you can do a soft throw Bomb (such that the Bomb lands on the ground without exploding) by throwing the Bomb just before you land. The timing is a bit tight as you need to throw it early enough so that the aerial throw animation is not replaced by the grounded throw animation, and you need to do it late enough so that the Bomb is thrown just before you land. This can be done by throwing it forwards or backwards and it can even be done with the c-stick. It is possible to do things like FH, Bomb Pull, Soft Throw. It does not matter if you are drifting forwards or backwards and it does not matter if you are fast falling. Anyway, look into it if you weren't aware of it already.

Finally, I just wanted to let you know that I'm currently working on giving rough estimates as to how many times you can Jab each character when doing the Jab tech. I'm not finished yet, but I thought I'd let you know. The information can be found in this main post here http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-11#post-18513196 (Note the bolded part.) and I will be updating it as I go.