Let's talk Air Mac!

[tomvanharmelen]

Alright, let's get the obvious out of the way first: for regular play ( above the stage itself ) mac's air moves are pretty bad.
There are some exceptions to this, but it's safe to say those exceptions confirm the rule.

That being said, Little Mac has quite a bit of use for his aerials off stage, with gimping being surprisingly easy against some characters and pretty much impossible versus others.
In this thread, I would like to have us all compile a list of ways to use Mac's aerials off stage, mainly for gimping purposes.
If you feel you have a solid experience using a certain move vs certain characters at a certain height, feel free to post those here.
To make things easier to read through, please use the basic high, mid and low recovery and post which moves you prefer using vs which character.

Now for some on stage use of Mac's aerials.

At currently untested percents ( I know for a fact that in a Mac ditto, at 70% ) dtilt leads into a Fair.
the Fair will not launch them far, so when done from the middle of the stage, they won't even fall off stage.
With a missed tech, this leads into a free Usmash (or any other attack, obviously) which, depending on character, can actually kill.

You can probably use Nair to lock them and be able to charge the smash for more damage.

When you get launched vertical and opponents wait right below you on stage, sometimes, using nair while landing right on top of them, breaks their attack and sets you up for a jab/ rapidjab/ jab 1,2, into anything.

The uses for Bair, Dair and Uair on stage have for me been too unexplored to give an opinion on as to potential.
Feel free to share your thoughts!

 

[AxelVDP]

dtilt -> fair true comboes (with no DI) at basically every % on non-floaties, but that does not mean you should go for it every time (it's kinda goodish at mid-high%s)
sometimes it's just better to bait an action and punish it afterwards, or go for the upB which deals more dammage
also, it's usually more rewarding going for an onstage edgeguard like dsmash rather than putting yourself at risk and going offstage to fair the opponent (obviously you can do it as a sort of mixup, but that should not be the norm)

nair does NOT jablock, that's dair for you
also, nair is a pretty ****ty attack, you are ALWAYS at frame disadvantage even when you hit (it's like -6 or -5 on hit, I don't actually remember) and because it has weight based knockback its safety never increases with the opponent %
it works as a combo breaker ONLY IF the opponent does not expect it and has pretty slow reflexes, otherwise it's almost always punishable
one decent use for this move is for confirming into footstools after a down tilt or something
and also to get yourself out of tumble animation when you are hit (by getting out of tumble you're not commited to a tech when you land, and little mac's techs are pretty terrible and easily punishable)

bair is probably mac's worst aerial, it doesn't really do anything special, the only use I can think for this move is for intercepting recoveries at the ledge and hope for a stage spike, but that's it

uair can actually combo into upB!! but landing the move is really unpractical, you should probably stick to utilt and usmash juggling

dair is probably mac's most useful aerial, for the sole reason that it can jablock (and mac has a handful of moves that can be used to create tech situations)
also it can be used to do some disrespectul "spikes" on characters with bad recoveries like falcon and bowser jr (the move is so weak that it does not give back the koopa cart to bowser jr out of his up b and can thus gimp him)

I would not think that his aerials are unexplored, they are pretty straightforward and bad, that's all there is to it

 

[PHYTO-1]

dtilt -> fair true comboes (with no DI) at basically every % on non-floaties, but that does not mean you should go for it every time (it's kinda goodish at mid-high%s)
sometimes it's just better to bait an action and punish it afterwards, or go for the upB which deals more dammage
also, it's usually more rewarding going for an onstage edgeguard like dsmash rather than putting yourself at risk and going offstage to fair the opponent (obviously you can do it as a sort of mixup, but that should not be the norm)

i like to do dtilt > fair/uair just to condition my opponents. if dtilt sends them too high for a KO punch then dtilt > fair > Ko punch can work

uair can actually combo into upB!! but landing the move is really unpractical, you should probably stick to utilt and usmash juggling

uair can actually combo into many things even usmash and ufsmash. if you play customs, uair > power smash is decent setup for a 60% kill. (i say decent because its hitbox on midair opponents is wonky) shad > uair > powersmash

 

[Zodiacx10]

it's kinda silly, but sometimes you can d-tilt into a fullhop dair to hit people back to the ground so they dont jump away from you,
then fast fall and reach the ground around the same time they do since mac falls so fast and follow up with a f-tilt or something. not really practical against good players though, but fun online

 

[tomvanharmelen]

dtilt -> fair true comboes (with no DI) at basically every % on non-floaties, but that does not mean you should go for it every time (it's kinda goodish at mid-high%s)
sometimes it's just better to bait an action and punish it afterwards, or go for the upB which deals more dammage
also, it's usually more rewarding going for an onstage edgeguard like dsmash rather than putting yourself at risk and going offstage to fair the opponent (obviously you can do it as a sort of mixup, but that should not be the norm)

Not every time you use dtilt -> fair is as a means for edge guarding though, and depending on percentage, it leads into another fair.
Against certain characters ( Ike, Cloud, etc ) it leads to easy kills at mid percent.
Your claim that dtilt -> fair is a true combo at basically every percentage is flat out false, which is something people need to take into account.
This is why I made this thread to begin with, to give people more awareness of what Mac can and cannot do at certain moments against specific characters.
From my experience, dtilt -> fair is most effective at mid percent as it leads into offstage kills perfectly by then. at high percent, the launch power of Fair becomes too great to follow up to without risk of them getting out of tumble before you reach them.

nair does NOT jablock, that's dair for you
also, nair is a pretty ****ty attack, you are ALWAYS at frame disadvantage even when you hit (it's like -6 or -5 on hit, I don't actually remember) and because it has weight based knockback its safety never increases with the opponent %
it works as a combo breaker ONLY IF the opponent does not expect it and has pretty slow reflexes, otherwise it's almost always punishable

I meant Dair, it was a typo.
Nair, however, has a very niche use to it.
If the dtilt leads into a fair launching the opponent off stage at mid percent, you can chase him with the forward movement of the jump fair and nair to death.
It's pretty much a suicide mission, but worth it if you think you won't be able to take the stock otherwise.

Regarding using Nair to interrupt opponents trying to attack, please watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ykLDfS8yQQ

bair is probably mac's worst aerial, it doesn't really do anything special, the only use I can think for this move is for intercepting recoveries at the ledge and hope for a stage spike, but that's it

I think Bair is more useful than Uair.
Yes its' use is pretty much limited to a 'run off stage and stagespike the opponent' move, but it's surprisingly decent at that.
It's probably faster than when you run off stage and side B, so it's worth going for if you dont have time to use side B.
If you do have time, always go for side B.

I would not think that his aerials are unexplored, they are pretty straightforward and bad, that's all there is to it

I meant that I haven't explored their potential fully yet, but I do think people have to easily put Mac's aerials down as unusable and stopped trying to implement them because of the risk/reward ratio.

I think for the development of the Little Mac metagame, it would be wise for us to create an aerial threat for opponents, no matter how small that threat may be.

 

[Zodiacx10]

I think for the development of the Little Mac metagame, it would be wise for us to create an aerial threat for opponents, no matter how small that threat may be.

its funny. when i go for d-tilt -> fair, people start trying to air dodge the fair (which i think is pretty silly) so that allows me to get an air dodge read a lot of the times. also after you up/down tilt somebody at mid percents they usually jump away to avoid you getting any other follow-ups. its really nice when you hit them with dair to put them on the ground again or hit them out of their double jump so they have to make a quick decision before they land.

 

[AxelVDP]

Not every time you use dtilt -> fair is as a means for edge guarding though, and depending on percentage, it leads into another fair.
which is not what I meant, sorry if I made myself unclear. when I talked about edgeguarding with fair I was talking about raw fair, not dtilt -> fair
I agree that the main purpose of going for dtilt -> fair is to setup tech chase situations and to BAIT the opponent into airdodging so that you can punish with more powerful attacks like partially charged fsmashes and the like

Against certain characters ( Ike, Cloud, etc ) it leads to easy kills at mid percent.
Your claim that dtilt -> fair is a true combo at basically every percentage is flat out false, which is something people need to take into account.
it was obviously an hyperbole, what I meant is that with no DI dtilt -> fair works on most characters up to like 100+% (it shows up as a true combo up to 110ish% on sheik and 140ish% on captain falcon on training mode) (I know training mode is not 100% reliable, but still.) (it obviously does not work at very low %s but I thought I did not need to point that out...)
this for me is basically "working at avery percentage" because after that they should be dead if they're playing against a Little Mac...

This is why I made this thread to begin with, to give people more awareness of what Mac can and cannot do at certain moments against specific characters.
From my experience, dtilt -> fair is most effective at mid percent as it leads into offstage kills perfectly by then. at high percent, the launch power of Fair becomes too great to follow up to without risk of them getting out of tumble before you reach them.



I meant Dair, it was a typo.
Nair, however, has a very niche use to it.
If the dtilt leads into a fair launching the opponent off stage at mid percent, you can chase him with the forward movement of the jump fair and nair to death.
It's pretty much a suicide mission, but worth it if you think you won't be able to take the stock otherwise.
Regarding using Nair to interrupt opponents trying to attack, please watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ykLDfS8yQQ
that's pretty cute but it does not change the fact that nair is UNSAFE ON HIT at EVERY percentage. it CAN be used but it's often very risky in and of itself, if the corrin mashed jump or airdodge right from the start he would have been able to avoid your hits and potentially even footstool you to death
the opponent has to know the matchup against Mac tho, so it can work against inexperienced players, but if I were to play against a strong player I would not risk my luck by trying to do something like this.


I think Bair is more useful than Uair.
Yes its' use is pretty much limited to a 'run off stage and stagespike the opponent' move, but it's surprisingly decent at that.
It's probably faster than when you run off stage and side B, so it's worth going for if you dont have time to use side B.
If you do have time, always go for side B.
the thing is, you HAVE to use your upair sometimes when your opponent is platform camping you
bair on the other hand is an entirely optional aerial
also fun fact: bair is a frame 11 move with 2 active frames, while sideB is a frame 9 move with 7 active frames, meaning that it's much easier to catch opponents going for the 2 frames at the ledge
the only problem is that you cannot use sideB at all spacings but whatever


I meant that I haven't explored their potential fully yet, but I do think people have to easily put Mac's aerials down as unusable and stopped trying to implement them because of the risk/reward ratio.

I think for the development of the Little Mac metagame, it would be wise for us to create an aerial threat for opponents, no matter how small that threat may be.

 

[tomvanharmelen]

Regarding using Nair to interrupt opponents trying to attack, please watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ykLDfS8yQQ
"
that's pretty cute but it does not change the fact that nair is UNSAFE ON HIT at EVERY percentage. it CAN be used but it's often very risky in and of itself, if the corrin mashed jump or airdodge right from the start he would have been able to avoid your hits and potentially even footstool you to death
the opponent has to know the matchup against Mac tho, so it can work against inexperienced players, but if I were to play against a strong player I would not risk my luck by trying to do something like this. "

Axel, Just because something is unsafe, doesn't mean we shouldn't go for it.
Saying they CAN do anything against doesn't mean they will.
It's like saying you shouldn't use ANY move when they are capable of shielding it, because them (power)shielding it causes you to be disadvantaged.

It's part of playing Litlte Mac for me, taking risks because the rewards are worth it.
interrupting somebody with a fast-falled Nair may just be that little thing that turns a guaranteed anti-air into a KO setup for Little Mac.
iIf a strong player has never seen a Little Mac do this before, there's a chance he won't be able to react on you doing it and you can actually get away with it because of that.
The player in that video is called SamuSilver, he whooped my ass frequently during our games and he is a competitive player so I think it's safe to say he isn't what you would call an 'inexperienced player'.

If it works on him, why not on others ?
I'm obviously not stating this is something you have to do every time, but it's a trick to keep in your arsenal to surprise players with.

I would like to bring this discussion back to Mac's off stage use of his aerials.
If you reply to my comment, please also add something on how you use his aerials off stage so we can have this thread as a solid resource for Air Mac.

 

[PHYTO-1]

on the topic of suicide aerial kills, im sure you guys are aware of offstage fair > fair > sideb aka the Wall of Gainz

with wall jumps can do 6 fairs offstage or 7 dairs offstage.
fulljump > fair > fair > walljump > fair > fair> double jump > fair > walljump > fair > upb/sideb.
for dair: full/ short jump > dair > dair > walljump > dair > dair > double jump > dair > dair > wall jump > dair > upb only.

i would only recommend doing this stuff against non-hitbox recoveries. and on walled ledges obviously.

 

[Zodiacx10]

on the topic of suicide aerial kills, im sure you guys are aware of offstage fair > fair > sideb aka the Wall of Gainz

with wall jumps can do 6 fairs offstage or 7 dairs offstage.
fulljump > fair > fair > walljump > fair > fair> double jump > fair > walljump > fair > upb/sideb.
for dair: full/ short jump > dair > dair > walljump > dair > dair > double jump > dair > dair > wall jump > dair > upb only.

i would only recommend doing this stuff against non-hitbox recoveries. and on walled ledges obviously.

lol, ill have to keep this in mind for those mega disrespect/style moments

 

[tomvanharmelen]

Phyto, that seems like the holy grail of Mac gimping, is there any way you can show us a video of how it's performed ?

 

[PHYTO-1]

Phyto, that seems like the holy grail of Mac gimping, is there any way you can show us a video of how it's performed ?

which one? the wall of gainz?

"Show'em Whatcha Got, Baby" - Little Mac Moveset Thread - WIP

in that gif i only do dtilt> fair > side b

but at lower %s you can do dtilt> fair > fair > double jump > fair > side b

 

[lunaticz0r]

on the topic of suicide aerial kills, im sure you guys are aware of offstage fair > fair > sideb aka the Wall of Gainz

with wall jumps can do 6 fairs offstage or 7 dairs offstage.
fulljump > fair > fair > walljump > fair > fair> double jump > fair > walljump > fair > upb/sideb.
for dair: full/ short jump > dair > dair > walljump > dair > dair > double jump > dair > dair > wall jump > dair > upb only.

i would only recommend doing this stuff against non-hitbox recoveries. and on walled ledges obviously.

anyone got video of this? im a new mac lover, my best friend used to play him (he passed...) and i want to honor him by playing.maining lil mac. Been going pretty well but the words sometimes dont seem clear to me, how do you do fair fair walljump fair fair...i dont see this happening, anyone help? :D
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6wiRmEEjs-I4_WbwOgKnWg/videos?view=0&shelf_id=0&sort=dd

 

[PHYTO-1]

anyone got video of this? im a new mac lover, my best friend used to play him (he passed...) and i want to honor him by playing.maining lil mac. Been going pretty well but the words sometimes dont seem clear to me, how do you do fair fair walljump fair fair...i dont see this happening, anyone help? :D
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6wiRmEEjs-I4_WbwOgKnWg/videos?view=0&shelf_id=0&sort=dd

made a quick replay video. might still be low quality.

 

[lunaticz0r]

made a quick replay video. might still be low quality.

woooow!!

I thought you could only do one walljump...this is crazy haha thanks!

 

[PHYTO-1]

woooow!!

I thought you could only do one walljump...this is crazy haha thanks!

there has to be a delay between jumping off the same wall. also- little mac has the second best walljump

 

[shinhed-echi]

made a quick replay video. might still be low quality.

!!!!
He ain't no airfighter tho. :O

I love his fair so much, dair, and ocassionally bair as well.