Let's talk about Wuhu Island.

[Ulevo]

Wuhu Island is one of the most commonly mentioned stages discussed when it comes to stage controversy, and I feel it has been treated unfairly regarding the attention it has received. I'd like to talk about what the stage entails, what it might offer, and some problems I see associated with it.

Wuhu Island Research Thread

Here is a post of mine discussing the details of the stages size:

I have played on the stage plenty of times now, and while I had the inclination that the stage was too big, posts like this one...

Wuhu's blastzones are actually fairly average, for the most part. The ceiling is extremely mundane, at least during most segments; the blastzones to the left and right of the stage are only large when you factor in its overall length. From my experience, people don't live that much longer there. Sure, it's kind of slow and campy, but is that really a reason to ban a stage? Why?

...prompted me to test it objectively, otherwise I wouldn't have a factual basis to state otherwise. So, I've done some tests.

I performed three kinds of tests. The first test was to test kill % using Mario's uncharged Forward Smash on another Mario at the edge of the stage (Mario in his tipping animation). The kill counted towards results as long as Mario entered the side blastzone, indicated by a horizontal blast animation, not a diagonal one. The second test was using Mewtwo's up throw on a Mario. Mewtwo was chosen thanks to the up throws straight trajectory, and throws were always performed on the base stage, not a platform. The third test performed was to compare the relative length of the various transformations in Wuhu. This was done by using Captain Falcon's up tilt to travel the length of the stage. Each up tilt counts as 1 unit.

For each of these tests, fixed camera was used, with Mario set to control with no DI used.

Before posting the results, here are some relevant bench marks:

Horizontal Blastzone Kill %'s:

Big Battlefield: 65%
Battlefield: 72%
Smashville: 64%
Final Destination: 65%

Vertical Blastzone Kill %'s:

Big Battlefield: 154%
Battlefield: 141%
Smashville: 133%
Final Destination: 133%

Travel Units:

Big Battlefield: 51 Units (7 Luigi Back Rolls)
Battlefield: 31 Units
Smashville: 28 Units
Final Destination: 34 Units

Big Battlefield was chosen as a bench mark to help illustrate what a large but otherwise legal stage might look like, size wise, while the other three were for comparison against healthy legal stages.

Name|Picture|Notes
Platform 1|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 41
Platform 2|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 131 Travel Units: 40
Platform 3|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 41
Platform 4|

|Horizontal Kill %: 60 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 41

Name|Picture|Notes
Arena|

|Horizontal Kill %: 76 Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: 38
Bridge|

|Horizontal Kill %: Walk Off Vertical Kill %: 135 Travel Units: Too Long
Jet Ski Race|

|Horizontal Kill %: 80 Vertical Kill %: 128 Travel Units: 30
Rocks|

|Horizontal Kill %: 78 R, 70 L Vertical Kill %: 155 Travel Units: 32
Boat|

|Horizontal Kill %: 68 L, 66 R Vertical Kill %: 129 Travel Units: 31*
Beach|

|Horizontal Kill %: Walk Off Vertical Kill %: 141 Travel Units: Too Long
Volcano|

|Horizontal Kill %: 52 Vertical Kill %: 148 Travel Units: 18 Each Side
Fountain|

|Horizontal Kill %: Walk Off Vertical Kill %: 142 Travel Units: 27 Each Side
Cliff|

|Horizontal Kill %: 81 Vertical Kill %: 142 Travel Units: 42

So, looking at this, what can we conclude?

All four platform transformations are relatively the same size wise, with the #3 having high platforms and platform #2 having a slightly lower blastzone ceiling. 3/4 of them having the same blastzone height as Battlefield, known for having a relatively high ceiling. While the blastzones at the edge of the platforms is relatively average, the stage platforms are not, boasting 41 units, making it larger than Final Destination, and much larger than Smashville, horizontally. Overall, the relative horizontal size from centre stage to blastzone is likely close to Battlefield. This isn't too bad with the exception of platform #3's open layout, which can make it hard for certain characters to give chase.

Arena is larger than Battlefield, boasting 7 more units of stage space and larger horizontal blastzones. While it shares the same vertical ceiling size, it has no platforms to mitigate this problem for characters that KO vertically.

The Bridge is massive. It's a walk off with tons of horizontal room, and for obvious reasons was not tested for travel units or horizontal kill %. Vertically the ceiling is higher than Final Destination and Smashville. It is not higher than Battlefield, but again, no platforms to supplement the difference.

Jet Ski Race is okay. It's roughly the length of Battlefield, however its horizontal blastzones are deceivingly bigger, killing 8% later than usual. The vertical blastzone is quite low here by comparison. Overall this transformation is okay. Despite the larger sides, the smallness of the main platform makes engaging the opponent easy.

Rocks is very big. It has a higher ceiling than even big Battlefield, and side blastzones almost as large or larger than regular Battlefield depending on which side you're on. This might seem okay with the 31 units of stage space, however this measurement did not account for the water space in the middle, which could not be accurately tested. Overall, it's likely closer to 40+ units. Unnecessarily big transformation.

Boat is fine. Nothing to complain about regarding this transformation.

Beach is stupid. Travel units and horizontal kill %'s not done for obvious reasons.

Volcano boasts high blastzones, killing roughly 7% later than on Battlefield, again with no platforms to supplement the issue. Horizontal kill %'s were low at 52%, but this was done at the bottom platforms, not on the main stage. To add to this, the total ground space covers 34 units total, and like Rocks, does not account for the space in the middle, likely pushing the overall space to 40+ units of room between ledges.

With 27 units of space on either side of the water spout, Fountain has almost 60 units of horizontal stage space. You'd think the ceiling blastzone would be low to compensate, but no. Once again it is equal to Battlefield with no platforms to compensate.

Cliff has 42 units of room before going off screen, making this still a decent bit larger than the three legal stages. The kill zone to the right is much larger, requiring over 80% to land a kill. And once again we have the Battlefield-esque ceiling heights with no platforms.

Basically, the only reasonable parts about Wuhu Island regarding size are platform #1, #2, #4, Boat, and maybe Jet Ski Race. The other 8 transformations are too large given their stage space, layout, ceiling height, and side blastzones. While I would say this stage hurts characters that kill vertically more than horizontally, it isn't nice either way. Most transformations are have heigher ceilings than Battlefield with no platforms, while the relative stage space in units makes landing killing blows mid-stage very unreasonable. Couple this with the fact that 4 out of the 13 transformations have walk offs, and many are susceptible to character match up abuse (i.e. Sonic versus Ganondorf), and this stage has no business being legal in my mind from the sheer size it boasts.

I do think it is an excellent doubles stage.

Some obvious things to mention:

• The stage has three small hazards: the bow of the boat, which has an active hitbox in the water while moving; the water that skims below the platform when transitioning to arena; the balloons that appear on the right side of the Cliff transformation. All three are avoidable and not particularly dangerous.
• The glitch where players could previously down throw players in to the bow of the boat for a kill has been removed.
• The stage transformations all last 15 seconds.
• Out of the 14 transformations, 4 of them include walk offs.
• The stage, as noted in the above post, is very large on many transformations.

I will be blunt about this. Whether or not you believe this stage deserves to be legal ultimately comes down to whether or not you believe a stage can be banned based on size, and whether or not you believe Wuhu crosses that line. I am of the inclination that Wuhu likely is too big, and I do believe that there is such as thing as 'too big' when it concerns stage legality.

Outside of this, I see no other problems associated with Wuhu, and I encourage players to vote for its legalization should stage size not be a considerable factor to you.

Discuss.

 

[COLINBG]

I don't like Wuhu.

I have a problem with stages with transitions. Wuhu has A LOT of them, and while they do follow certain patterns, they are not 100% set. If the transitions were the exact same in the exact same order everytime, I wouldn't mind since you can just learn them and play predicting a transition to come out soon. However, since it's slightly random, I find it too much of a gamble. You can very quickly go from having an advantage to being in trouble because of that.

Some of the transitions are awkwrad to fight on because they are very different from every other competitive stages. Boat, Bridge, Volcano, Fountain, and Rocks, for example. Cliff is also special, since the neutral game is completely different. The player to the left is clearly at an advantage. If the only transition was between the 4 platforms I wouldn't mind it.

As for the size of the stage, I find it too big. The 4 platforms are a little bigger than I'd like them to be, but still acceptable. Some of the other transitions are way too big to fight on, though.

No hazards is nice, so that's one thing the stage really has going for it. I don't care about the water hazard on the boat, because that transition is rare, and while it does prevent offstage play, it's not that hard to avoid until it goes off.

Overall it all comes down to personnal preferences. This stage is not Magicant-broken, far from it, but it's not Smashville-neutral either. I prefer no transitions, smaller maps, and more ''traditional'' layouts. I'm also against Skyloft and Delfino. But since Delfino is legal, I don't see why Wuhu and Skyloft aren't; that's weird because they are similar in a lot of points and the differences are not that big.

Should it be banned? I'm on the yes side, but it's not a clear line. Do I want it to be banned? Absolutely.

I do think it is an excellent doubles stage.

With you on that one. I'm fine with it in doubles.

 

[Raethien]

I dont mind the stage. Wuhu and Skyloft should be legal. While I feel Halberd should not.

 

[Ulevo]

Please refrain from using your views on how other stages should be treated as a means of discussing whether or not Wuhu deserves to be legal. Whether or not Halberd is legal or should be legal shouldn't have any bearing on how Wuhu should be treated.

 

[Meek Moths]

if you think wuhu island should be banned then you take competitive smash way too seriously

 

[COLINBG]

if you think wuhu island should be banned then you take competitive smash way too seriously

Isn't the whole point of competitive smash just that? To take a casual game and play it seriously? I'll be the first one to pick up Wuhu when playing for fun, but if we're talking about tournaments, ''taking things too seriously'' should never be an argument to decide if we make stuff legal or not. Reasons why the stage doesn't hinder gameplay too much, however, are welcomed, as well as responding to posts such as mine with counterarguments.

 

[Oracle]

Just want to point out that "too big" is not a valid reason to ban a stage. You only ever want to ban something if it breaks the game in some way. Same goes for stages that change; its a part of the game that isnt broken, no reason to ban bc of that.

That being said, I dont think the stage because pretty much all of the transformations provide heavily campable positions, which turns the game into running away to run the clock, rather than actual interaction. Also, if youre on the normal part of the stage in a bad spot, ie offstage or on the ledge, you can simply run to fall to one of the camping spots below to mitigate your positional disadvantage.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We have two arguments here. The first is that transforming stages should be banned in general, a position I strongly disagree with. It's also pretty far out of mainstream given that Delfino is legal almost everywhere and as far as I can tell Wuhu Island's transformations follow a more predictable pattern than Delfino's (read the Wuhu stage research thread; it's not 100% deterministic but you have a REALLY good idea where the stage is going pretty much all the time even moreso than Delfino or Skyloft). The volcano is pretty much the only "bad" transformation that stops fighting most of the time; things like the fountain, the bridge, the boat, or the rocks seem a little odd to people the first time they see them but in practice are as tame if not more tame than a typical Delfino stop. Wuhu's blast zones are also more stable during transition periods than all of the other transforming stages which removes one of the principle issues people have with transformers. I don't think this argument is solid at all.

The size argument is interesting, but I just don't see a ban case here. @ Ulevo successfully proved that the stage is somewhat bigger than most other legality candidate stages, but I'm not seeing the dire gameplay implication here. Yeah there is a such thing as too big; Palutena's Temple is too big; it's several times bigger than a conventional stage. Wuhu Island is something like 20% bigger than other stages; it's not a big enough size difference to really change the basic character of matches especially since the very horizontal structure of the stage is generally very unfriendly to run-away tactics (real talk: it's easier to stall for long periods of time on Smashville than on Wuhu Island if stalling is your goal). Obviously the larger size does somewhat extend the average stock, but it's a modest effect not a drastic one and matches usually finish on Wuhu in under the time limit unless it's a match-up that was pretty likely to time out on any stage (stuff like Sonic vs Rosalina when both players are patient).

Our extensive local play on this stage suggests that it's overall a solid Sonic counterpick but far from gamebreakingly powerful for him (I can name at least five characters who benefit more from Battlefield than Sonic benefits from Wuhu Island) and that otherwise it seems unnotable across match-ups except that it generally favors more "horizontal" gameplay meaning that anyone who liked FD probably likes Wuhu while the BF lovers probably would prefer the other transforming stages more. Local players who have played on this stage extensively also tend to really like it; I'm entirely convinced the only reason this stage is banned anywhere is misinformation and a lack of player experience. It's just so ridiculously inoffensive as a stage, and every concern I've ever seen aired about the stage has been a lot more hypothetical than real-match based whereas 100% of the real-match stuff I've seen here has been positive. It's pretty futile to fight the stage war pre-EVO since we can do nothing about that stage list now, but this stage (and Skyloft) is going to be at the heart of what I'll be pushing for post-EVO.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Ulevo
There are two hazards you missed, although they're both minor. When the stage goes to the Arena, it skims over the water for a while and the water does 5% damage with next to no knockback. As in, it won't even kill at Sudden Death percents. The second hazard you missed is a balloon on the Cliff form that floats up from the bottom. It explodes for 10% damage on contact with a player. Kill % varies depending on which side you touched (the right side is more dangerous since it's closer to that blast line) and how high it is (self explanatory).

 

[Asdioh]

The balloon also always comes at the same time right?

Anyway, this might actually be my favorite new stage. Hella fun to play on, nothing random or match-deciding. Not a big fan of the bridge or volcano, but otherwise it's great, and w101 music!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The balloon also always comes at the same time right?

As far as I know, I admittedly didn't try to collect data on that.

Wuhu Island is actually my favorite of the 3 main touring stages (the other two being Skyloft and Delfino Plaza), although I'm not actually sure why. Maybe it's the scenery.

 

[Meek Moths]

Isn't the whole point of competitive smash just that? To take a casual game and play it seriously? I'll be the first one to pick up Wuhu when playing for fun, but if we're talking about tournaments, ''taking things too seriously'' should never be an argument to decide if we make stuff legal or not. Reasons why the stage doesn't hinder gameplay too much, however, are welcomed, as well as responding to posts such as mine with counterarguments.

wut

 

[webbedspace]

but otherwise it's great, and w101 music!

Uhh, that's the Pilotwings stage. But don't worry, Wuhu has the important Style Savvy remix.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I will be blunt about this. Whether or not you believe this stage deserves to be legal ultimately comes down to whether or not you believe a stage can be banned based on size, and whether or not you believe Wuhu crosses that line. I am of the inclination that Wuhu likely is too big, and I do believe that there is such as thing as 'too big' when it concerns stage legality.

Outside of this, I see no other problems associated with Wuhu, and I encourage players to vote for its legalization should stage size not be a considerable factor to you.

Discuss.

I'm curious how "too big" could reasonably be seen as a criterion. Really, it seems a completely unnecessary addition to the qualifiers of "non-degenerate" and "non-random". If your concern is your tournament dragging on, then make that a criteria, but "too big" is not necessarily the problem in that case. If a stage is simply big, but not degenerate or random, then that doesn't inherently make it problematic. What, exactly, about "too big", inherently means problems for competitive gameplay? I don't think it's a valid complaint. You have to bring it back to "this is why this stage is broken". So why would it make Wuhu broken? I don't see it, personally, neither in your theorycraft nor in the results of my own tournament series nor in any other place where Wuhu is legal.

 

[Retro X]

I'm curious how "too big" could reasonably be seen as a criterion.

Stages like Palutena's Temple and Temple are both too big for competitive play. A fast character like Sonic can literally just hit a character like Robin one time and then run away for free for the rest of the match and win. The bigger a stage is, the more advantage faster characters have over slow characters.

Personally, I'm someone who finds even FD to be a little too big at times, so anything bigger than FD in my book is an insta ban. I don't have much Wuhu experience but after going through the horror of Skyloft legality on Smashladder I am aware of the problems a big, transforming stage can pose. As a ZSS main I can get a small lead and then run forever, it's not fun but it's what's going to happen on a stage that big.

 

[webbedspace]

Big =/= circular. Both Temples, Big Battlefield, etc. are banned primarily because they contain circular routes (and because of caves-of-life), not necessarily because of their size. Thought experiment: if you doubled the size of FD and its blast zones, I find it hard to believe that it would become obviously uncompetitive, because it would still inherently be a straight line - every player can always go "forward" and confront their opponent. (The worst that would happen is that KOs from the center of the stage would become very difficult, as would vertical KOs - but Wuhu is nowhere near two FDs in size, and frequently becomes smaller than one FD, so that problem isn't applicable).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Stages like Palutena's Temple and Temple are both too big for competitive play.

But that's not why they're banned. Their size is not the problem, it leads to the problems. The reason why Temple is banned is not simply because the stage is large, but because it is literally impossible for a slower character to catch a faster one. Not difficult, not obnoxious, impossible. And it doesn't matter how big you make, say, Final Destination; unless you turn the stage into a Mobius Strip, it's fundamentally different. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of kind. Because at the end of the day, no matter how big it is, you have to cross over your opponent one way or another. On Temple, you don't. You can camp around the solid object in a circle, making it impossible to catch you. This is what makes the stage broken. This is what makes the stage fundamentally unsuitable for competitive play. The size is not, in and of itself, an issue.

A fast character like Sonic can literally just hit a character like Robin one time and then run away for free for the rest of the match and win. The bigger a stage is, the more advantage faster characters have over slow characters.

This is true. So what? Yeah, fatties love small stages and speedsters favor large stages. That doesn't make the large stages broken. And, of course, this is all theorycraft - in practice, we don't see this. Sonics on Wuhu do not get free wins against slower characters. Pikachu can't just run away forever and camp. Matches go a little longer, but it's not the free blowout you and Ulevo seem to expect.

Personally, I'm someone who finds even FD to be a little too big at times, so anything bigger than FD in my book is an insta ban. I don't have much Wuhu experience but after going through the horror of Skyloft legality on Smashladder I am aware of the problems a big, transforming stage can pose. As a ZSS main I can get a small lead and then run forever, it's not fun but it's what's going to happen on a stage that big.

If you're able to run away from people forever as ZSS, my suggestion would be to play against people who aren't awful.

 

[Illuminose]

I really dislike Wuhu as a competitive stage. My main issue with it is that most of the transformations are excessively large, campy, and/or awkward. Breaking them down:

Main Platform: not too bad although it is very large, which makes horizontal kills more difficult. This is compounded by a ceiling as high as Battlefield, which works for Battlefield because it is a small horizontal stage and there are multiple platforms that mitigate this issue. Stocks become extended pretty greatly in this part of the stage.

Arena: it's...ok I guess? Sort of like a smaller FD, except I'm not a fan of the large horizontal blast zones and ceiling as high as Battlefield with no platforms to compensate.

Bridge: way too big as in engaging the opponent is awkward, and the far left part of the bridge is way too close to the (walk off) blast zone.

Jet Ski Race: fine, I don't have any complaints here.

Rocks: first there's the vertical ceiling, which is the highest of any legal stage by a solid margin and makes killing off the top insanely hard. There's also a polarizing high ground-low ground type of structure. There's also the enormous size of the transformation and water inbetween the two sides of the stage. This promotes campy and degenerate play.

Boat: I can live with this transformation for the most part. The separation between the two sides of the boat makes it kinda campy but it's ok.

Beach: This really comes down to pure size. Based on size alone, I think this transformation is just too big. It's not really campy because it's completely flat, but the issue is that killing on this transformation is almost impossible with a ceiling as high as Battlefield with no platforms to compensate, and horizontal walkoff blast zones that are so far away from any encounter that will happen.

Volcano: the gap in the middle makes the neutral game here insanely awkward and really rather campy. The ceiling is higher than Battlefield, too, making vertical kills difficult.

Fountain: this transformation is made for camping with the fountain in the middle severely limiting approach options to the other side. It's also huge with a high ceiling.

Cliff: another meh transformation. It is practically impossible to kill off the right side, and the ceiling is high. There's also a dumb slope.

The bottom line is that many of these transformations promote degenerate gameplay and are insanely difficult to end stocks on, slowing down the pace of gameplay. Characters with good speed and movement options get an overwhelming advantage on this stage because of all the camping opportunities presented. The stage also has four walkoffs, which count against it for obvious reasons due to the nature of walkoffs. This stage should not be legal.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I really dislike Wuhu as a competitive stage. My main issue with it is that most of the transformations are excessively large, campy, and/or awkward. Breaking them down:

Main Platform: not too bad although it is very large, which makes horizontal kills more difficult. This is compounded by a ceiling as high as Battlefield, which works for Battlefield because it is a small horizontal stage and there are multiple platforms that mitigate this issue. Stocks become extended pretty greatly in this part of the stage.

Arena: it's...ok I guess? Sort of like a smaller FD, except I'm not a fan of the large horizontal blast zones and ceiling as high as Battlefield with no platforms to compensate.

Bridge: way too big as in engaging the opponent is awkward, and the far left part of the bridge is way too close to the (walk off) blast zone.

Jet Ski Race: fine, I don't have any complaints here.

Rocks: first there's the vertical ceiling, which is the highest of any legal stage by a solid margin and makes killing off the top insanely hard. There's also a polarizing high ground-low ground type of structure. There's also the enormous size of the transformation and water inbetween the two sides of the stage. This promotes campy and degenerate play.

Boat: I can live with this transformation for the most part. The separation between the two sides of the boat makes it kinda campy but it's ok.

Beach: This really comes down to pure size. Based on size alone, I think this transformation is just too big. It's not really campy because it's completely flat, but the issue is that killing on this transformation is almost impossible with a ceiling as high as Battlefield with no platforms to compensate, and horizontal walkoff blast zones that are so far away from any encounter that will happen.

Volcano: the gap in the middle makes the neutral game here insanely awkward and really rather campy. The ceiling is higher than Battlefield, too, making vertical kills difficult.

Fountain: this transformation is made for camping with the fountain in the middle severely limiting approach options to the other side. It's also huge with a high ceiling.

Cliff: another meh transformation. It is practically impossible to kill off the right side, and the ceiling is high. There's also a dumb slope.

The bottom line is that many of these transformations promote degenerate gameplay and are insanely difficult to end stocks on, slowing down the pace of gameplay. Characters with good speed and movement options get an overwhelming advantage on this stage because of all the camping opportunities presented. The stage also has four walkoffs, which count against it for obvious reasons due to the nature of walkoffs. This stage should not be legal.

Two things.

First, if memory serves, Wuhu Island only makes horizontal kills difficult if you're launching from center stage. From the ledges, it's comparable to BF/FD/etc.

Second, this...

The stage also has four walkoffs, which count against it for obvious reasons due to the nature of walkoffs.

Also applies to Delfino Plaza. Not to mention that temporary walkoffs can't be effectively camped in the first place for a variety of reasons.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I really dislike Wuhu as a competitive stage. My main issue with it is that most of the transformations are excessively large, campy, and/or awkward.

What does that have to do with the stage being competitive or not, though?

The bottom line is that many of these transformations promote degenerate gameplay and are insanely difficult to end stocks on, slowing down the pace of gameplay.

See, you detailed a whole bunch of personal gripes there, but what, exactly, is degenerate gameplay? Can you camp some of them out? So what - you can't camp out the main platform, which is more than half of the stage already. And a temporary degenerate camping spot is simply not degenerate, because you have to abandon it. Similarly -

The stage also has four walkoffs, which count against it for obvious reasons due to the nature of walkoffs. This stage should not be legal.

- temporary walkoffs are not broken the same way non-temporary walkoffs are. The problem with walkoffs is that camping there is an overpowered strategy - but you cannot camp someone out on a temporary transformation.

Characters with good speed and movement options get an overwhelming advantage on this stage because of all the camping opportunities presented.

Oh, they get an advantage. But an overwhelming one? Like the overwhelming advantage characters with good vertical kill setups get on Delfino and Halberd? Or the overwhelming advantage strong jugglers get on Battlefield? Or the overwhemling advantage zoning chars get on FD? Look, in actual tournament play, this doesn't work out quite like this. You don't see this.

 

[Pazx]

Question

Do the planes that fly about count as hazards? They're usually in the background but at the Wakeboarding/Jet Ski/Whatever area a plane often flies towards the camera and it's startled me a few times.

 

[W.A.C.]

Whether or not this stage should be legalized should depend largely on the type of stages we want legalized. If we were to have some of the currently legal stages banned, then this stage doesn't really fit the criteria of being a stage that should be legal. If all nine of the currently legal stages stay allowed, then I don't see why this stage in particular should be banned now that the boat glitch is gone. Granted, matches on this stage can be quite time consuming, but not to the extent where I think that should qualify this stage with an immediate ban.

 

[Piford]

Question

Do the planes that fly about count as hazards? They're usually in the background but at the Wakeboarding/Jet Ski/Whatever area a plane often flies towards the camera and it's startled me a few times.

They are not nearly as hazardousas FD's background. As long as you know they can't hurt you, it shouldn't really effect the game at all.

 

[Pazx]

They are not nearly as hazardousas FD's background. As long as you know they can't hurt you, it shouldn't really effect the game at all.

I actually meant to ask if they can actually damage my character but I suppose you inadvertently answered that as well

 

[Jaaahsh]

Some objections from my local scene, when this stage was brought up for legality, centered around the presence of rushing water in the ship transformation effectively making a very shallow pseudo blast zone along the bottom of that transformation. Admittedly, I have little experience playing on the stage; is hitting the water at this point a true death sentence? Are there characters that can hop out before they get carried off-screen or get slammed by the boat (à la Jungle Japes from Melee)?

 

[Pazx]

Some objections from my local scene, when this stage was brought up for legality, centered around the presence of rushing water in the ship transformation effectively making a very shallow pseudo blast zone along the bottom of that transformation. Admittedly, I have little experience playing on the stage; is hitting the water at this point a true death sentence? Are there characters that can hop out before they get carried off-screen or get slammed by the boat (à la Jungle Japes from Melee)?

It is far more similar to Pirate Ship from Brawl than Japes from any game. The water moves slowly and you have time to jump out unless you landed very close to the bow of the boat.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Some objections from my local scene, when this stage was brought up for legality, centered around the presence of rushing water in the ship transformation effectively making a very shallow pseudo blast zone along the bottom of that transformation. Admittedly, I have little experience playing on the stage; is hitting the water at this point a true death sentence? Are there characters that can hop out before they get carried off-screen or get slammed by the boat (à la Jungle Japes from Melee)?

Yes and no. When the boat is in motion, the water will swiftly carry you to the left. If you're on the right side of the boat, it'll run you over for a 100% damage spike and instant death. If you're on the left side, it carries you offscreen for a kill. Either way you're dead.

That said, you don't actually start getting carried along until your character finishes rising to the surface and starts treading water. This gives you a precious moment or two to get your bearings and figure out the best course of action. Mashing jump can usually save you, although you still need to make it back onto the boat itself.

If you fall in at the beginning before the boat starts moving, or at the end when it finishes, you don't go anywhere and it's just standard water.

 

[Jaaahsh]

Yes and no. When the boat is in motion, the water will swiftly carry you to the left. If you're on the right side of the boat, it'll run you over for a 100% damage spike and instant death. If you're on the left side, it carries you offscreen for a kill. Either way you're dead.

I can see this being a possible counterargument for its inclusion, then. (Though, note, not necessarily a death toll for the stage as a whole.) Hazards, in my opinion, are fine as long as they're not the variety that kills you outright. Nabbit, for instance, is the often cited as the dealbreaker for Mushroom Kingdom U precisely because of the (escapable) instantaneous death he can cause; a similar argument could be levied against the (occasional) ship transformation.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I can see this being a possible counterargument for its inclusion, then. (Though, note, not necessarily a death toll for the stage as a whole.) Hazards, in my opinion, are fine as long as they're not the variety that kills you outright. Nabbit, for instance, is the often cited as the dealbreaker for Mushroom Kingdom U precisely because of the (escapable) instantaneous death he can cause; a similar argument could be levied against the (occasional) ship transformation.

I always thought Nabbit wasn't liked because he was highly distracting, a third entity in the fight that has to be swatted away. (It's really quite easy to kill Nabbit, it's just odd since he actually operates by standard Smash rules instead of having HP like you may expect. He even goes flying further if he's hurt.)

It's possible to argue for the boat transformation regardless since the danger zone is below the ledge on both sides, a traditional danger zone anyway. Worst case scenario, it forces you to recover high. It's also tied for the rarest transformation on the whole stage, appearing 1/16 of the time, and only ever appears after the bridge transformation. (The other being the rocks, which only appear after the arena.)