Let's talk about Pokemon Stadium 2.

[Ulevo]

DISCLAIMER: Do not vote "Yes" for 5 Player Pokemon Stadium 2. This is for regular Pokemon Stadium 2 discussion only. No one will debate that 5 Player Pokemon Stadium 2 is a fine stage, and is a matter of tournament organizer discretion.

With the thread on Wuhu Island reaching a large supermajority vote, it would seem the discussion has been largely concluded. Now I wish to discuss Pokemon Stadium 2.

Pokemon Stadium 2 Research Thread

Pokemon Stadium 2 is an interesting case. On the one hand, its main transformation is excellent in layout and simplicity. On the other hand, the Lightning and Ground transformations of this stage present some potential problems with player interaction; one dissuades players from battling each other in order to avoid the risk of giving up an advantage, similarly to the Fire transformation in Pokemon Stadium 1 in Melee; one intrusively interferes with the match and offers an advantage to the player who controls centre stage.

The blast zones of the stage are identical to Smashville vertically, and larger than Final Destination horizontally by a reasonable bit. It takes 37 units to cross Pokemon Stadium 2 from ledge to ledge, with 34 on Final Destination, and 31 units to cross Battlefield. Mario will also die to a Mario forward smash at 66% at the ledge, versus Final Destinations 65%. This is quite interesting as it means Pokemon Stadium 2 has one of the largest horizontal blast zones available out of an arguably legal stage.

The transformations on this stage come every minute, and last for 30 seconds, with a 5 second warning prior to transforming and roughly 2-3 seconds of time to transform. This means that in a 6 minute game, this stage will transition through all four transformations. In addition to the 5 seconds warning, there is a visual cue on the background monitor that tells the players which transformation is coming next.

Each transformation order is random, and there is no way of predicting which transformation will come in what order.

The two least concerning transformations are the following:

Despite exhibiting unique qualities not found on any other stages, these transformations are relatively harmless, and invoke interesting gameplay. The Ice transformation provides a near frictionless floor, allowing characters to slide from actions such as dashes and shield push back. The Flying transformation accelerates upward vertical movement and stalls vertical descent.

The two more concerning transformations are the following:

The Ground transformation adds a terrain hill that, due to its placement, puts players at risk should they attempt to jump or cross over it to engage the player on the other side. This is similar to the Fire transformation in Melee in many respects.

The Electric transformation is the primary problem, and largely the reason for this discussion. This transformation contains conveyor belts on the left and right floor, excluding the middle portion underneath Pikachu. To demonstrate the relative speed of the conveyor belts, they move at a pace that prevents Jigglypuff from making any forward headway while walking full speed. Because of the placement of the belts in addition to the centre platform, this gives a large positional advantage to anyone who takes hold of centre stage. Certain characters have large difficulty regaining positional control on this transformation. It is also worth mentioning that characters, such as Pac-Man and Villager are able to use tactics that take advantage of these belts, being able to plant Tree's and Hydrants on the belts without them moving along the stage.

The stage overall exhibits desirable qualities as a competitive stage, however the impact of the Electrical transformation on a match is concerning. Due to having to fight the stage in addition to the player, it is my feeling that the Electrical transformation has the ability to influence and alter the match significantly enough to turn the tables in a manner that detracts from the skills of the players involved. Players may not encounter this transformation during a game, as the match may not last long enough for it to cycle through, but there is that consideration. While we dealt with the Fire transformation on Pokemon Stadium 1 in Melee, similarly the Ground transformation is a dock against the stage at the very least.

@ Amazing Ampharos @ ParanoidDrone

Discuss.

 

[san.]

I think the 5+ player version should be legal since it becomes one of the best stages in the game. Set the stock count +1, the timer +30 seconds, and add 3 CPUs to kill at 150% handicap. Take off your stock after killing them and begin the match.


Even with the hazards, the stage was pretty fair in previous iterations. Without wall infinites, there's not much to exploit. The biggest annoyance is the wind stage.

I never considered the electrical zone that much of an issue, but I believe you do raise some interesting points. It may be a strong influence with the newer stage control characters. I think the platforms are more safe zones since people won't really want to be on the conveyors that much. The center is strong, but if a character pushes further, I think they lose that advantage if they have to get close to the conveyor belt.

 

[Ulevo]

I think the 5+ player version should be legal since it becomes one of the best stages in the game. Set the stock count +1, the timer +30 seconds, and add 3 CPUs to kill at 150% handicap. Take off your stock after killing them and begin the match.


Even with the hazards, the stage was pretty fair in previous iterations. Without wall infinites, there's not much to exploit. The biggest annoyance is the wind stage.

I never considered the electrical zone that much of an issue, but I believe you do raise some interesting points. It may be a strong influence with the newer stage control characters. I think the platforms are more safe zones since people won't really want to be on the conveyors that much. The center is strong, but if a character pushes further, I think they lose that advantage if they have to get close to the conveyor belt.

Please keep in mind that the voting should be primarily for singles purposes. I have nothing against discussion with doubles or other formats, but the voting is strictly for singles.

You raise an interesting point about the conveyor belts, with losing stage advantage if they push further. So what about characters like Pikachu, Lucario, Villager, or other characters that might be able to projectile spam without losing stage control?

 

[san.]

Please keep in mind that the voting should be primarily for singles purposes. I have nothing against discussion with doubles or other formats, but the voting is strictly for singles.

You raise an interesting point about the conveyor belts, with losing stage advantage if they push further. So what about characters like Pikachu, Lucario, Villager, or other characters that might be able to projectile spam without losing stage control?

Yes, what I said was purely for singles. 1v1, +1 stock, +30 seconds, kill the 3 extra CPUs and suicide, then start your match with a hazardless PS2.

Projectile spam isn't really capable of stopping the other player from waiting out the transformation since there is an easy powershield timing and most characters can just maintain a walk. The left platform is a little riskier since it's subject to sharking attempts, though it's still slightly better since you can camp the left corner and possibly take the center if they try to come at you.

If both players are already in the center before one could set up the defensive wall, it's usually more disadvantageous towards the campier player if the character lacks the close quarters combat since there wouldn't be any good places to kite/flee.

 

[Piford]

I find the ground transformation a lot better than both the rock and fire transformations in Pokémon Stadium 1. The hill is just as single thing, unlike how the tree has the section under it and in it. This makes it much less of an issue because your not really covered as well. Compared to the rock transformation, there's a lot more room too the left alleviating that issue, and the there's no pit which is much better. I think the platform really helps make the rock transformation a non issue, as it allows for much more creative use of approach options. Basically if you are trying to use the hill, you are trading a more advantageous defensive position for a lack of movement space. It make it much harder to approach you, but it also makes it harder to avoid an approach. It's definitely not abusive, even though it might give an advantage to the person holding the hill. The interactions there are still going to be meaningful and it's not overpowered.

 

[Ulevo]

Yes, what I said was purely for singles. 1v1, +1 stock, +30 seconds, kill the 3 extra CPUs and suicide, then start your match with a hazardless PS2.

Projectile spam isn't really capable of stopping the other player from waiting out the transformation since there is an easy powershield timing and most characters can just maintain a walk. The left platform is a little riskier since it's subject to sharking attempts, though it's still slightly better since you can camp the left corner and possibly take the center if they try to come at you.

If both players are already in the center before one could set up the defensive wall, it's usually more disadvantageous towards the campier player if the character lacks the close quarters combat since there wouldn't be any good places to kite/flee.

The reason I referenced Lucario and Pikachu is their projectiles can hit characters that are lying at the ledge, and the stage pressures you off if you do a get up attack or a get up, forcing you to either roll or jump.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd be interested in seeing the effects of the Electric form on, say, Villager ledge stall tactics. I believe the tree remains stationary once planted (because screw physics) but I can see the movement in and of itself making it tricky for Villager to properly place the sapling in the first place. Too close and he might even fall off before it's planted?

Also since Jigglypuff is (I think) the slowest walker in the game, that also means that every other character in the game can (sometimes slowly) gain ground when walking and the entire cast can outrun them without issue. I can't recall offhand how fast they moved in Brawl but it seems to be accepted fact that the Smash 4 speed is slower. The point is that the conveyor belts don't outright force aerial movement if slow characters wish to remain on stage, although it may still be preferable overall.

The flying form puts an interesting twist on air-to-air combat, especially juggles. Especially at low percents, it wouldn't surprise me if certain juggle moves actually propel the target a distance that's too far to follow up without double jumping, yet not far enough such that the double jump would result in passing them up entirely, thus flipping the juggle around. The lower fall speed also reduces the overall usefulness of burst movement specials like Monkey Flip and Bouncing Fish by giving the other player ample time to reposition.

The Ice form has weird physics going on with skid animations. I know my research topic notes what is and isn't allowed out of a skid although I can't recall any of it offhand, and perfect pivots in particular are something I hadn't bothered to investigate at all due to a lack of tech skill on my part.

No real comment on the Ground form, WYSIWYG.

Overall the physics changes are things that I'd be quite interested in seeing the effects of on a match with players that have put thought into how best to take advantage of them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

We have this stage legal locally at some events but it's not popular and gets picked seldom. That being said I can offer some commentary based on my experiences since I do practice it extensively in friendlies and have played it in tournament a handful of times (actually struck to here once, surprised me a lot but I didn't mind!).

The ground form doesn't stop approach as much as you'd intuitively think because it has a very approach-friendly shape for a stage with a solid object in the middle. If the opponent is camping on the left and you are on the right, you can often jump in. If they're standing very close to the edge of the ground mound, they expose themselves to attacks from below while you just land safely back on the right side of the mound. If they stand back far enough to avoid that, you generally have ground you can use to mix up your approach by landing near the top of the mound yourself (and shield pushback on steep slopes often keeps the attacker safer than shield pushback on flat ground). In some MUs that platform on the left is also helpful as an approach tool but that's not really the main relevant dynamic. A lot of people just stand around in these positions not thinking they can be approached and then get really surprised when someone just goes in. Sonic's Homing Attack also will often just curve right over the slope and bounce back in a safe way, super obnoxious but at least very pro-offense (I think Sheik can use Bouncing Fish in a similar way but I've never seen the local Sheiks play here so I'm not 100% sure on that). There's actually a lot of character specific cleverness to attack safely across the mound (as Rosa I use Luma Warp shenanigans), but I certainly haven't mapped out the whole cast on this point. If you're camping on the right of the mound, they can't really jump right at you from the left, but there's tons of room and platforms on the right side of the stage so they can jump over you and approach from the right. Then if you retreat to the left the situation from before is re-created. I don't think the ground form will usually stall out among players very experienced with the stage.

The electric form is super obnoxious and creates a semi-long period of really awkward and annoying gameplay, but I just don't see it as broken. The stage doesn't really kill you or set you up to die; it just kinda makes you thrash around a bit. If you are a player with good decision making you can generally mitigate (use your judgment about when to try to seize the center versus when to wait things out on the wings). The only times I've ever seen electric swing a match is when one player made really bad decisions during it; usually things are about the same as when they started when electric ends if both players just remain calm during the form other than that resources can recharge during the time (most notably if Luma is dead at the start he won't be dead at the end). There are usually a few exchanges though and some small amount of damage done so don't get me wrong; it's not completely wasted time just frustrating gameplay that usually doesn't amount to enough to really have a big impact on the match.

Flying is really strong; most people are too scared to take substantive action, but players who actually know it well move in and move in hard during flying and can get vertical kills pretty easily or set up clever stage specific juggle traps. I don't think it's broken since the defender has a lot of tools during flying and the neutral gameplay required to set stuff up is often difficult and risky, but flying is definitely the highest stress portion of the stage among players who know what they're doing on PS2. Among players who aren't familiar, generally everyone just floats around and nothing happens.

Ice just causes sliding. With tripping and sliding fsmashes both removed from Brawl, ice is pretty benign. I "don't like it" because Rosalina takes poor advantage of this form (any sliding trick on the ice just leaves Luma behind!). I "like it" because there's nothing even vaguely problematic with it in terms of being a fair gameplay element; ice doesn't even vaguely contribute to any sane ban position.

I support this stage being legal mostly for procedural reasons. This stage is a fair stage that is sometimes annoying and really demands stage specific experience much moreso than other stages. We have 12 super good stages that are very fair and very tame (EVO stages plus Kongo, Skyloft, and Wuhu). 12 is a bad number of legal stages while 13 is a good one, and PS2 is the best #13 we have in my personal judgment (I know @ Ulevo believes in Mario Circuit which is not a meritless position, just not how I personally feel). If Miiverse or the Street Fighter stage are really good and functionally unique stages, I'd be down with replacing PS2 with them, but that's speculation on game elements that don't currently exist so for now I'm pro-PS2 while also wanting to make the big, clear point that having "one too many" legal stages causes way fewer problems than most people seem to imagine (people think that if a stage they don't like is legal it's like they have to play on it all the time which is not even close to true; you can have one legal stage you hate that you play on never very easily!).

I'd also like to share a hilarious and inconsequential glitch here that is near and dear to my heart. If you are playing here as a character costume with a different name from the default, the "current leader" background element gets confused and reports the name of the costume slot one before your current character. In practice this means if you are playing as any koopaling it will report the wrong character for you (like it will call Wendy "Roy") and if you are playing as specifically Alph's first costume it will call you "Olimar" (but Alph's other costumes will be correctly called "Alph"). I feel like I'm the only one who pays attention to things like this...

 

[Teh Sandwich]

The electric stage just kills it for me...

 

[Pazx]

please stop presenting your opinion as fact

thanks

-smashboards

 

[vegeta18]

i voted yes because i think 5 player pokemon stadium 2 is one of the best stages in the game. Here is a recent tournament that allowed stages like this, and 6wx vs dkwill was actually on 5 player pyrosphere. If this became legal, no reason to ban ps2 from tournaments. Only problem i could think of this, is the time it takes to set things up. Some big tournaments like apex and evo may not appreciate having to go back into the 8 player menu, change a few match rules, kill jiggz, and wait for the clock.

 

[Ulevo]

i voted yes because i think 5 player pokemon stadium 2 is one of the best stages in the game. Here is a recent tournament that allowed stages like this, and 6wx vs dkwill was actually on 5 player pyrosphere. If this became legal, no reason to ban ps2 from tournaments. Only problem i could think of this, is the time it takes to set things up. Some big tournaments like apex and evo may not appreciate having to go back into the 8 player menu, change a few match rules, kill jiggz, and wait for the clock.

You should not be voting for the 5 player Pokemon Stadium 2. It should be assumed that this will not happen in tournament due to time restraint reasons.

What I've talked about is what you get.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd like to try it, I personally like playing on ps2 just because it expedites the process of getting used to a character's mobility/options due to the rapid adapting process.

But it's a fine enough stage on it's own.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I will say, as someone who has this stage legal, this is certainly one of the most *******-about stages on the list. Virtually every time I mention some hypothetical rules change I get someone from the peanut gallery saying "never mind that, can we ban Pokemon Stadium?". And then I ask them for a reason, and they respond with "it distracts from the gameplay" and I respond with "it is gameplay" and we continue to get nowhere.

Yes, what I said was purely for singles. 1v1, +1 stock, +30 seconds, kill the 3 extra CPUs and suicide, then start your match with a hazardless PS2.

I don't believe this is a particularly viable or competitive solution. For starters, you have to spend time killing 3 different AI opponents - that's 3 or 4 stocks, depending on how you run it. That's a fairly large amount of time wasted. Secondly, it just looks ridiculous. Like, can you imagine something like that at evo? It's got to be the hackiest solution I've ever seen.

On the other hand, the Lightning and Ground transformations of this stage present some potential problems with player interaction; one dissuades players from battling each other in order to avoid the risk of giving up an advantage, similarly to the Fire transformation in Pokemon Stadium 1 in Melee;

With regards to stalling on the ground phase... When has this ever been a problem? There are numerous stages in Melee, Brawl and Smash 4 where transformations make approaching impossible, or at least unfavorable. Wuhu Island's bridge, volcano, boat, and fountain; Skyloft's belltower; Delfino's Shine Gate. Pokemon Stadium 1 had two such transformations and it left the default position twice as frequently. This has never really been seen as a problem before, and I don't know why we would see it as one now.

one intrusively interferes with the match and offers an advantage to the player who controls centre stage.

Now this is something different. Oh, by the way, this is a good time for me to mention that I love that you have no complaints about the physics changes. I hear from people all the time who complain about it being somehow divergent from gameplay, distracting, something they feel they shouldn't have to learn, rather than what it is - an element of gameplay that a good player will learn to deal with. Kudos to you for having a considerably more consistent view of that. But anyways, about electric.

The Electric transformation is the primary problem, and largely the reason for this discussion. This transformation contains conveyor belts on the left and right floor, excluding the middle portion underneath Pikachu. To demonstrate the relative speed of the conveyor belts, they move at a pace that prevents Jigglypuff from making any forward headway while walking full speed. Because of the placement of the belts in addition to the centre platform, this gives a large positional advantage to anyone who takes hold of centre stage. Certain characters have large difficulty regaining positional control on this transformation. It is also worth mentioning that characters, such as Pac-Man and Villager are able to use tactics that take advantage of these belts, being able to plant Tree's and Hydrants on the belts without them moving along the stage.

The stage overall exhibits desirable qualities as a competitive stage, however the impact of the Electrical transformation on a match is concerning. Due to having to fight the stage in addition to the player, it is my feeling that the Electrical transformation has the ability to influence and alter the match significantly enough to turn the tables in a manner that detracts from the skills of the players involved.

Now this really gets into the meat of the thing. Now, first off, imagine a stage that's just the electric segment. Discounting stall strategies (as those are generally discounted on a short-term transformation like this), what's broken? Or, to put it another way, what about the stage dictates either of the following:
- The better player will not win
- The question of "who is the better player" becomes trivialized (for example, who the better player is on Temple is trivialized as circle camping is incredibly easy to execute, and this breaks the stage)

Now, to be sure, there are gimmicks. Greninja is a huge pain in the ass here (not stellar, just really really annoying), trip sapling on the bands makes it very hard to approach villager or get off the ledge, the hydrant probably plays a similar role (and I don't know what customs Pacman has but I bet there's something nasty). Characters with poor ground speed and/or poor air-ground tools may suffer here. That said, that a character is good on a stage is nothing new; that a character is good on a certain segment of a certain stage doubly so. I'm not entirely sure how it would significantly turn the tables; the better player will establish stage control and get more out of it than they usually would. But from my experience, this is not an unbeatable hurdle, and stage control actually shifts more often than you might think*. Couple this with the way you tend to be pretty hard to nail while getting up from/getting pushed back onto the ledge, and the way the stage makes it difficult to pressure the ledge effectively, and I don't see any particularly overpowered offensive strategies emerging in the 30-odd seconds between when the rollers start and the rollers stop; perhaps at worst aggressive zoning from a PacMan or Villager. Do you have any examples you'd like to bring up?


*although this may have to do with players in my region lacking experience on the stage and/or not being top players

 

[Ulevo]

The fact that Pokemon Stadium 2's elements on the Flying and Ice transformations diverge from regular gameplay could be argued. After all, you need to spend the time practicing for that one particular stage, and the skills acquired there will not translate to anywhere else. One could argue that the Flying transformation is intrusive and that it interferes with regular gameplay, in some cases more so than the Electric transformation. However, how much is this is poor stage design and how much of this is lack of player adaptation?

 

[san.]

I don't believe this is a particularly viable or competitive solution. For starters, you have to spend time killing 3 different AI opponents - that's 3 or 4 stocks, depending on how you run it. That's a fairly large amount of time wasted. Secondly, it just looks ridiculous. Like, can you imagine something like that at evo? It's got to be the hackiest solution I've ever seen.

I thought it was iffy too, until I experienced it at a local. It's hardly more ridiculous than Smash 4 "hand warmers." It ended up being among the most selected stages.

 

[T0MMY]

I don't think anyone working with rules should be thinking with the mindset of having a Stage "legal" or not. The only banned stages should be ones that interfere with running the tournament, the rest of the stages should be determined by the competitors, not the invisible hand of us keyboard warriors.

This is the way of expansive analysis where one OVERlooks a fair competition by standards of axiom; there is no bias of personal preference by the TO telling the players what to use and no interference of competition between two (or more) competitors. The real issue at hand is how well the competitors receive this stage, and to answer that is to perform a bit of alchemy here whereby one will break apart the whole and examine the parts to record their qualities only to recombine them into a greater understanding of the operation.
Particular to this Stage is the quality of transformation in that there are distinct particular events which transmute both form and mechanic interaction (e.g. iced ground, wind, obstructions, etc.). The psychological reactions to this stage vary amongst individuals but the most striking behavioral action to note is that of favoring and disliking dependent on the transformation variable. Nearly every player I examine or inquire about with this stage seems to like at least one part and dislike several others - this leads to a generality of the stage where most of the stage is disliked despite nearly every single participant of the study liking it at some point (current results point to the beginning stage structure prior to the transformation).

The result, in practice, pushes for two incidents dependent entirely on the formal operations of rules. A "legal or not" attitude results in "ban it" due to the general dislike discussed above. However, a system that does not push for bans usually has a general audience "okay" with having it available as long as the competitive system is not violated (referring here mostly to the fairness principle regarding stage choice).

As for my opinion, in a "legal or not" sense I would say to "ban it" not only because it doesn't make the game any more fun nor competitive (by far an large my opponents will not want to go to this stage about as much as I do not want to go to this stage for the same reasons), but mostly due to the "counterpick" system that is usually employed is the cause of my opinion to ban this stage (with my opponent getting choice in the Stage I will want as many stages "banned" as possible to minimize my chance of not being as good at some oddball Stage as they are).

 

[Ulevo]

I don't think anyone working with rules should be thinking with the mindset of having a Stage "legal" or not. The only banned stages should be ones that interfere with running the tournament, the rest of the stages should be determined by the competitors, not the invisible hand of us keyboard warriors.

This is the way of expansive analysis where one OVERlooks a fair competition by standards of axiom; there is no bias of personal preference by the TO telling the players what to use and no interference of competition between two (or more) competitors. The real issue at hand is how well the competitors receive this stage, and to answer that is to perform a bit of alchemy here whereby one will break apart the whole and examine the parts to record their qualities only to recombine them into a greater understanding of the operation.
Particular to this Stage is the quality of transformation in that there are distinct particular events which transmute both form and mechanic interaction (e.g. iced ground, wind, obstructions, etc.). The psychological reactions to this stage vary amongst individuals but the most striking behavioral action to note is that of favoring and disliking dependent on the transformation variable. Nearly every player I examine or inquire about with this stage seems to like at least one part and dislike several others - this leads to a generality of the stage where most of the stage is disliked despite nearly every single participant of the study liking it at some point (current results point to the beginning stage structure prior to the transformation).

The result, in practice, pushes for two incidents dependent entirely on the formal operations of rules. A "legal or not" attitude results in "ban it" due to the general dislike discussed above. However, a system that does not push for bans usually has a general audience "okay" with having it available as long as the competitive system is not violated (referring here mostly to the fairness principle regarding stage choice).

As for my opinion, in a "legal or not" sense I would say to "ban it" not only because it doesn't make the game any more fun nor competitive (by far an large my opponents will not want to go to this stage about as much as I do not want to go to this stage for the same reasons), but mostly due to the "counterpick" system that is usually employed is the cause of my opinion to ban this stage (with my opponent getting choice in the Stage I will want as many stages "banned" as possible to minimize my chance of not being as good at some oddball Stage as they are).

We 'keyboard warriors' are the competitors.

What a load of unnecessary jargon. If you have a point, make it concise.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

We 'keyboard warriors' are the competitors.

What a load of unnecessary jargon. If you have a point, make it concise.

Ulevo, T0MMY. T0MMY, Ulevo. Trust me, if you think I'm bad, you're not going to enjoy talking to him.

 

[vegeta18]

i forgot to post the video i mentioned earlier, but here is an example of dkwill and 6wx using pyrosphere in an actual tournament set as a counter pick. The same could be done with ps2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTXZlNj8I44&feature=youtu.be&t=4m26s

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The fact that Pokemon Stadium 2's elements on the Flying and Ice transformations diverge from regular gameplay could be argued. After all, you need to spend the time practicing for that one particular stage, and the skills acquired there will not translate to anywhere else. One could argue that the Flying transformation is intrusive and that it interferes with regular gameplay, in some cases more so than the Electric transformation. However, how much is this is poor stage design and how much of this is lack of player adaptation?

I personally see it a bit like any other piece of obscure game knowledge - a good player will learn it in order to be more effective. Of course, in this case, a player doesn't even have to, because almost every tournament runs at least one or two stage bans - it'll just cost them some minor advantage in other fields, like not being able to ban Delfino and Halberd against my ZSS.

Jokes aside, though? I think "this is niche knowledge that you will not commonly need and therefore you should not need to learn it and we'll just ban that" (and while this isn't quite what you said, it is a viewpoint I've actually seen espoused about Pokemon Stadium 2) is antithetical to the entire concept of competitive gameplay. It's our job as competitive players to know the game inside and out, and to eke whatever advantage we can out of that knowledge.

As for the flying transformation being intrusive, ground game is unchanged. If both players are in neutral, the stage does nothing to disrupt that neutral. It changes how characters work in the neutral, but it doesn't disrupt that. It can amplify an advantage stage, or, depending on the character, weaken it - it's way easier for ZSS to juggle the crap out of you there, and overshoots can be corrected for, but a lot harder for, say, Luigi to combo Sonic (because he can't get to the ground quickly). It changes the way the game is played, but not in a broken way, and not in a particularly intrusive way either, I'd argue. I think most players overstate it because of exactly what you say - a lack of player adaptation. They don't player there, so they don't know it well, so they find it far more intrusive than it actually is.

 

[deepseadiva]

I thought it was iffy too, until I experienced it at a local. It's hardly more ridiculous than Smash 4 "hand warmers." It ended up being among the most selected stages.

This is so strange to hear. I wouldn't figure smashers would be willing to go through "all that hassle".

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think PS2 has potential to be a pretty effective counterpick for a couple of characters. Specifically, I'm thinking of Pac-Man [Hydrants are unaffected by the conveyer belt and the push back of the water box is more powerful on the Ice Transformation] and DHD [Gunman is unaffected by the conveyer belt whilke the Can is not]. Wouldn't be surprised if Villager also had a couple of tricks on this stage because afaik the tree isn't affected by the conveyer belt either.

IIRC the main reason this stage was banned in brawl was because the wind transformation allowed for some pretty ridiculous air stalling. That doesn't seenm to be as much of an issue in Smash 4. It should be given a chance.

 

[Ulevo]

I personally see it a bit like any other piece of obscure game knowledge - a good player will learn it in order to be more effective. Of course, in this case, a player doesn't even have to, because almost every tournament runs at least one or two stage bans - it'll just cost them some minor advantage in other fields, like not being able to ban Delfino and Halberd against my ZSS.

Jokes aside, though? I think "this is niche knowledge that you will not commonly need and therefore you should not need to learn it and we'll just ban that" (and while this isn't quite what you said, it is a viewpoint I've actually seen espoused about Pokemon Stadium 2) is antithetical to the entire concept of competitive gameplay. It's our job as competitive players to know the game inside and out, and to eke whatever advantage we can out of that knowledge.

As for the flying transformation being intrusive, ground game is unchanged. If both players are in neutral, the stage does nothing to disrupt that neutral. It changes how characters work in the neutral, but it doesn't disrupt that. It can amplify an advantage stage, or, depending on the character, weaken it - it's way easier for ZSS to juggle the crap out of you there, and overshoots can be corrected for, but a lot harder for, say, Luigi to combo Sonic (because he can't get to the ground quickly). It changes the way the game is played, but not in a broken way, and not in a particularly intrusive way either, I'd argue. I think most players overstate it because of exactly what you say - a lack of player adaptation. They don't player there, so they don't know it well, so they find it far more intrusive than it actually is.

It needs to be said that ground game also encompasses short hop tactics or low ground aerial game, which is primarily what will be disrupted here. For an entire 35 seconds of the match, if you were trying to out space your opponent as Captain Falcon with back airs, well that's going to have to wait. You'll need to adapt to it or find another way of dealing with your opponent.

The point I am making isn't so much that players cannot adapt to these transformations so much as they can be winning, going even, or making a come back and have it turn around on them because of the environment these transformations bring. Not suddenly of course, but for 35 seconds none the less, which is a long time. This can happen for at least two of these transformations.

This sort of thing does not happen on any other stage. Other stages like Delfino and Wuhu transform, but there surroundings or elements don't change so drastically to the point where a character that had the lead suddenly has to play as if they are in a poor position.

Looking at it, I think this is one of if not the big arguments against this stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It needs to be said that ground game also encompasses short hop tactics or low ground aerial game, which is primarily what will be disrupted here. For an entire 35 seconds of the match, if you were trying to out space your opponent as Captain Falcon with back airs, well that's going to have to wait. You'll need to adapt to it or find another way of dealing with your opponent.

Right, right, should have thought for a moment. I mean, christ, I main ZSS, and although her uairs are lethal on that segment, her entire approach game relies on SHFF aerials, and she just can't do that there. That's why I rarely counterpick it.

The point I am making isn't so much that players cannot adapt to these transformations so much as they can be winning, going even, or making a come back and have it turn around on them because of the environment these transformations bring. Not suddenly of course, but for 35 seconds none the less, which is a long time. This can happen for at least two of these transformations.

Which ones? Electric and flying? On electric, the player who loses stage control has to deal with a fortified stage position, but it's not unbeatable and any attempt to, say, approach a player near the edge puts you in a risky situation where the tide can easily be turned on you. On flying, the way the matchup is played changes in numerous ways for both players, and as a matchup-specific change, it should not be considered problematic in the same way as, say, Ridley dropping out of the sky onto the battlefield would be.

This sort of thing does not happen on any other stage. Other stages like Delfino and Wuhu transform, but there surroundings or elements don't change so drastically to the point where a character that had the lead suddenly has to play as if they are in a poor position.

If you're pressuring your opponent on skyloft and the belltower shows up, if you can't adapt to the change of the stage, you're going to lose your stage control and your opponent will be able to retreat to strong defensive position. Same with the Shine Gate on Delfino, albeit to a lesser extent. I don't think this is necessarily a different type of thing on Pokemon Stadium, merely a matter of degree, and I don't see the degree as particularly harsh.

 

[T0MMY]

We 'keyboard warriors' are the competitors.

What a load of unnecessary jargon. If you have a point, make it concise.

Obviously you have a different definition of a keyboard warrior than what I used.
Please read in CONTEXT - an example of my definition is competitor A and competitor B have a money match. They decide to compete on Pokemon Stadium 2 for a best of one $100 money match. Competitor A wins the match fair-and-square. However someone else, we shall name them Non-Competitor, posts online that Pokemon Stadium 2 is not "legal" and therefore Competitor A must give the $100 back to Competitor B.
Would you like to argue against my statement that Non-Competitor, the keyboard warrior, should not have a say in this competition between A & B?

Here's a point for you: my "jargon" regarding rules scores me a lot of "like" and "follow" points to the point where people approach me at tournaments and say they love my posts in person. Upon examination of this experience I think the wise choice is to continue on with the "specialized language of a trade or profession", but thanks for the suggestion.
Please reread the post when you can.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think PS2 has potential to be a pretty effective counterpick for a couple of characters. Specifically, I'm thinking of Pac-Man [Hydrants are unaffected by the conveyer belt and the push back of the water box is more powerful on the Ice Transformation] and DHD [Gunman is unaffected by the conveyer belt whilke the Can is not]. Wouldn't be surprised if Villager also had a couple of tricks on this stage because afaik the tree isn't affected by the conveyer belt either.

IIRC the main reason this stage was banned in brawl was because the wind transformation allowed for some pretty ridiculous air stalling. That doesn't seenm to be as much of an issue in Smash 4. It should be given a chance.

God dammit stop exposing my secret counterpick

(duck hunt can 0-death you if the upair hits at 0-mid percents during the air portion too lol. he keeps moving up during the multi hit so two will drag you up the entire screen)

 

[DunnoBro]

Here's a point for you: my "jargon" regarding rules gets scores me a lot of "like" and "follow" points to the point where people approach me at tournaments and say they love my posts in person. Upon examination of this experience I think the wise choice is to continue on with the jargon, but thanks for the suggestion. Please reread the post when you can.

Yea no one cares about how many likes you have if you post paragraphs when you can be posting sentences to make the same point.

 

[Jaxas]

(duck hunt can 0-death you if the upair hits at 0-mid percents during the air portion too lol. he keeps moving up during the multi hit so two will drag you up the entire screen)

The air portion is great for any AutoLink-angle move, but it's difficult to actually land them if your opponent plays the transition right (Ground game is even more important here than Air game, so whoever has the ground has the heavy advantage)

 

[erico9001]

err, yeah, I need somebody to help me decide with this one.

The flying portion: Vertical kills, are they more potent? If so, how much? Any D-throw combos going to suddenly start killing me, and will I be surprised by Jigglypuff's rest killing me at a much lower percent than usual? Most of my experiences with this transformation have been kind of lolsy, with both me and the opponent just kind of drifting at each other trying to land hits.

The electric portion: You can grab somebody, conveyor over to the edge, and throw them. Will this be troublesome - like if I am facing Ness with his B-throw? Also, are suicide moves like Kirby/D3/Wario's Neutral Specials problematic? And... can Ganondorf even cope with this particular layout?

The ground formation is unique, and the ice formation is terrific (although, again, watch out for pivot grabs from characters with strong B-throws)

 

[DunnoBro]

err, yeah, I need somebody to help me decide with this one.

The flying portion: Vertical kills, are they more potent? If so, how much? Any D-throw combos going to suddenly start killing me, and will I be surprised by Jigglypuff's rest killing me at a much lower percent than usual? Most of my experiences with this transformation have been kind of lolsy, with both me and the opponent just kind of drifting at each other trying to land hits.

Of auto-linkoff dthrows, only rob could do I think. He'd probably be good on that portion too in general.

But overall, they're kind of unwieldly.

 

[Nintendrone]

I personally love this stage, besides the fact that I like transforming stages in general. I just find it so cool and fun, and it greatly rewards stage knowledge/control.

Normal: This layout is awesome. It's like some cool BF/FD hybrid, leaning closer to FD. This form lasts for 1 minute, twice as much as the others, and you get it every other transformation.

Flying: For 30 seconds, everyone near the stage has an upwards force applied to them. This form benefits those with a good ground game, as a player in hitstun can be killed of the top earlier than usual, especially with autolink moves. Although you can stall your landing greatly, landing is difficult because it takes a while, making the ground a powerful position. This form is different, but I feel that's just it: not banworthy.

Ground: For 30 seconds, there is a hill near the middle as a wall on the right side, making it a strong stage position. The slope and platforms can help with approach, and the hill is not as powerful as Brawl thanks to no more wall infinites. This form is different: not banworthy.

Ice: For 30 seconds, all but the edges greatly decrease traction and elongate the skid animation, which can still be cancelled. This allows for some swift movements, making the stage smaller in a way. Those who like this will use the ice to chase, combo, and escape. Those who don't can ignore the ice for the most part by SHing or otherwise remaining in the air. This form is different: not banworthy.

Electric: For 30 seconds, grounded players are pushed to the edge, except for center stage, which becomes a very powerful position. All characters can outrun the belts, and the platforms provide safer places to land. Some characters can use/take back the center better than others, but that applies for every stage. This is the most polarizing part of the stage, but it's merely different: not banworthy.

As you're in the awesome normal form for most of the match, the other forms have warnings and can be predicted, and the forms are merely different from the norm: I see no reason to ban the stage.

 

[Pazx]

err, yeah, I need somebody to help me decide with this one.

The flying portion: Vertical kills, are they more potent? If so, how much? Any D-throw combos going to suddenly start killing me, and will I be surprised by Jigglypuff's rest killing me at a much lower percent than usual? Most of my experiences with this transformation have been kind of lolsy, with both me and the opponent just kind of drifting at each other trying to land hits.

The electric portion: You can grab somebody, conveyor over to the edge, and throw them. Will this be troublesome - like if I am facing Ness with his B-throw? Also, are suicide moves like Kirby/D3/Wario's Neutral Specials problematic? And... can Ganondorf even cope with this particular layout?

The ground formation is unique, and the ice formation is terrific (although, again, watch out for pivot grabs from characters with strong B-throws)

You die off the top earlier during the flying transformation, not sure about the rest of your post. I don't think the electric transformation would be "troublesome" for the reasons you've outlined.

 

[erico9001]

I personally love this stage, besides the fact that I like transforming stages in general. I just find it so cool and fun, and it greatly rewards stage knowledge/control.

Normal: This layout is awesome. It's like some cool BF/FD hybrid, leaning closer to FD. This form lasts for 1 minute, twice as much as the others, and you get it every other transformation.

Flying: For 30 seconds, everyone near the stage has an upwards force applied to them. This form benefits those with a good ground game, as a player in hitstun can be killed of the top earlier than usual, especially with autolink moves. Although you can stall your landing greatly, landing is difficult because it takes a while, making the ground a powerful position. This form is different, but I feel that's just it: not banworthy.

Ground: For 30 seconds, there is a hill near the middle as a wall on the right side, making it a strong stage position. The slope and platforms can help with approach, and the hill is not as powerful as Brawl thanks to no more wall infinites. This form is different: not banworthy.

Ice: For 30 seconds, all but the edges greatly decrease traction and elongate the skid animation, which can still be cancelled. This allows for some swift movements, making the stage smaller in a way. Those who like this will use the ice to chase, combo, and escape. Those who don't can ignore the ice for the most part by SHing or otherwise remaining in the air. This form is different: not banworthy.

Electric: For 30 seconds, grounded players are pushed to the edge, except for center stage, which becomes a very powerful position. All characters can outrun the belts, and the platforms provide safer places to land. Some characters can use/take back the center better than others, but that applies for every stage. This is the most polarizing part of the stage, but it's merely different: not banworthy.

As you're in the awesome normal form for most of the match, the other forms have warnings and can be predicted, and the forms are merely different from the norm: I see no reason to ban the stage.

That's good to hear about the electric. Oh, and I forgot there are the platforms! I'm not too concerned about grabbing -> bringing near the edge, because it only applies to a small amount of the cast.

You die off the top earlier during the flying transformation, not sure about the rest of your post.

So, how early are the vertical kills when it comes to the flying part? Has there actually been any testing with this?

I don't think the electric transformation would be "troublesome" for the reasons you've outlined.

Everyone is so picky about my word choice . Here, what troublesome means is roughly 'pain in the ass for players to deal with.' Anyways, I do agree with you, since players could ban the stage against characters who could abuse the particular function of the stage. There are not too many characters who could use it to their advantage, right? Maybe like 6?

 

[Pazx]

That's good to hear about the electric. Oh, and I forgot there are the platforms! I'm not too concerned about grabbing -> bringing near the edge, because it only applies to a small amount of the cast.

So, how early are the vertical kills when it comes to the flying part? Has there actually been any testing with this?
Everyone is so picky about my word choice . Here, what troublesome means is roughly 'pain in the *** for players to deal with.' Anyways, I do agree with you, since players could ban the stage against characters who could abuse the particular function of the stage. There are not too many characters who could use it to their advantage, right? Maybe like 6?

http://smashboards.com/threads/ceiling-height-research-thread.384187/ Rest kills about 15-20% earlier, making vertical kill moves about as powerful as if they were launched from the top platform of Battlefield.

Also in regards to your earlier question about Ganon struggling on this stage, I'm pretty sure someone confirmed that Jigglypuff can walk against the conveyor belt and not fall off so while it may be difficult for certain characters it's not a simple "YOU LOSE" transformation.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I don't believe this is a particularly viable or competitive solution. For starters, you have to spend time killing 3 different AI opponents - that's 3 or 4 stocks, depending on how you run it. That's a fairly large amount of time wasted. Secondly, it just looks ridiculous. Like, can you imagine something like that at evo? It's got to be the hackiest solution I've ever seen.

Yeah looking into making a custom stage replica seems more reasonable than that lol

 

[clydeaker]

I feel like almost everyone who played brawl competitively has a bias opinion on the subject because pokemon stadium 2 was almost always banned in brawl.

 

[Nintendrone]

I feel like almost everyone who played brawl competitively has a bias opinion on the subject because pokemon stadium 2 was almost always banned in brawl.

That is plausible, especially since this stage was noticeably worse in Brawl. Flying's floatiness was exacerbated by floatier characters, Ground had wall infinites, Ice had chances of random tripping, and Electric's conveyer belts were faster.

 

[vegeta18]

I don't believe this is a particularly viable or competitive solution. For starters, you have to spend time killing 3 different AI opponents - that's 3 or 4 stocks, depending on how you run it. That's a fairly large amount of time wasted. Secondly, it just looks ridiculous. Like, can you imagine something like that at evo? It's got to be the hackiest solution I've ever seen.

Its not that much time wasted, you add an extra minute onto the clock, and set 3 jigglypuffs to %300 damage, so the stocks go fast. It shouldnt take more than a minute to do, with 2 people and in doubles its even less. Than you just wait for the minute to finish. In return you get one of the best stages in the game, completely hazard-less and the chance of this being legal seems a lot more likely than custom stages being legalized.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

I think the 5+ player version should be legal since it becomes one of the best stages in the game.

In return you get one of the best stages in the game, completely hazard-less and the chance of this being legal seems a lot more likely than custom stages being legalized.

What makes this one of the best stages into the game?