Let's not let history repeat itself

[Batousai]

This is a great article. The writer objectively analyzes Sm4sh and points out the stupid things that can, and will, happen on both sides of the inevitable division between Sm4sh and Melee players.

Let's learn from the past, so that we don't make the absurdity of history repeat itself.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/on-the-future-and-the-repeat-of-history/

This is a great article. The writer objectively analyzes Sm4sh and points out the stupid things that can, and will, happen on both sides of the inevitable division between Sm4sh and Melee players.

Let's learn from the past, so that we don't make the absurdity of history repeat itself.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/on-the-future-and-the-repeat-of-history/

 

[Zol]

it's funny that noone seems to do what i do



ignore melee players

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Gotta admit, this seems to be really accurate and insightful. I've seen a lot of people act like this, and I'd by lying if I said I myself wasn't guilty of doing a few things on that first list in the past. Remembering a few particular ones, I do feel some of them weren't justified.

That being said I'm probably just going to avoid a good portion of competitive discussion when I can. At most, I'm just going to try and help figure things out with certain characters that I've taken interest in.

 

[PCHU]

My biggest issue with Smash 4 is not having many approach/movement options, and having matches take too long because of it.
Rolling's another deal because it's just annoying to deal with this time around, but it's typically more so the first thing.
I think the game is turning out okay and I'm curious to see what will develop, especially with patches coming into play, but the community will probably always remain a mixed bag regardless of how many times people point out what can be done to prevent toxicity.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a lost cause, but it'll definitely be tough because there are many people who don't care to look from someone else's perspective or are there only to make people mad/elicit some form of response.

Still, I've seen a lot of respectful people as of late, and that makes me optimistic.
It's nice being able to have a discussion rather than a debate.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah. Smash 4 is pretty good, but just like every game(well, at least with updates, things like Project M can be perfected balance-wise to a degree. There's a limit, of course), it can't be perfect.

I understand that it has many issues. Some directly with actual battles, and some outside of it. The random luck in getting custom parts, for instance. That said, since every game is hardly perfect regardless, it's kind of silly to pretend one is. Of course there's going to be preferences/bias. But there's no reason to not acknowledge that your favorite has flaws too. They're all flawed, even if you don't mind those flaws. I mean, Smash 64 is my favorite, followed by Smash 4, Melee, and then Brawl.(it's the same order as I said before Smash 4 came out, although whether or not I'll prefer the 3DS over the Wii U version or vice versa is unknown till I play the other version). That said, I realize that 64, like the rest, was not perfectly balanced. I do feel Melee is a bit harder to get good at than the other 3 normal versions(presuming getting into the Wii U one is as easy as the 3DS one, but I could easily be wrong about that). And even then, the mechanics are flawed yet interesting in each game. Even if some get taken away or nerfed. They're all a fun and unique experience, and no game truly feels that similar. And while the base mechanics stay the same, something new comes along to give it its own breath of fresh air. I love this about it. It can be characters, modes, stages, or even items. And of course, mechanics too. They're all great and different. I won't pretend every mechanic feels balanced, same with each technique.

As for Rage, I don't necessarily mind it, as other than Lucario, respectively, it tends to keep matches a bit more even overall. I do think the blast zones are a bit far in some courses, though. Apparently the Wii U version fixes that a bit, so that's kind of nice. And the various patches we're getting(1.04 is already on its way, and it will affect characters) makes it feel like Smash 4 may be the longest lasting meta of all time. Melee will eventually have a limit due to its inability to be naturally balanced outside of a remake with some fixed up balance(like making Pichu or Kirby better in some ways). I'm glad the later versions nerfed some top tier guys, but it did little to buff the weaker ones, which is needed just as much.

 

[AtlusKnight]

Now effectively I'm starting to play three smash games all at once and learning their neutrals all together and I have to say that the article was right about the combos as brawl esque, but isn't that how it was in melee too (although you pretty much stay in hitstun minus samus who nairs out of it)? I mean I have to position myself and fish out stray hits for conversions into kills since they can just DI and reposition themselves or even wiggle out of hitstun fast enough. And as for community concerns I surely do hope people just play smash for smash because honestly it was petty during the time when it was "Melee vs. Brawl." Like honestly who cares. Personally I disagree with the article about the game itself but that is whatever because we already experienced a Brawl meta of defense and a Melee meta as well which were mind sets that were injected into the beginning life of each game at the beginning.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This article is pretty old and while Praxis has some legit points I am still skeptical of overall impressions given it was for the 3DS version and also the fact a lot of the stuff he brought up didn't come to fruition.

Still it is an interesting read on the levels of how communities interact.

though is last comment,

If you want Smash 4 players to appreciate Melee, be like Hungrybox.

from what I learned from a hotel room last year at APEX he really isn't as open as the article implies.

 

[Reila]

it's funny that noone seems to do what i do

ignore melee players

This. Never cared about those people think about Brawl and I certainly don't care about what they think about Smash 4.

 

[otter]

And as for community concerns I surely do hope people just play smash for smash because honestly it was petty during the time when it was "Melee vs. Brawl."

I don't think that's reasonable. If you take what is arguably the greatest competitive game engine of all time, it's going to attract people who aren't necessarily Nintendo fans. They shouldn't have to give up everything they love about Smash just for the opportunity to play as a new character from a game they didn't care about.

Granted, there is no reason for them to attack newer players. I do think the power of the "meleetist" is exaggerated though considering they are outnumbered 100 to 1 compared to casual elitists who are even louder and more rude. It's gotten to the point where if you are not 110% positive about Smash 4, then you must be an hater, and that kills a lot of fun discussion.

 

[liets]

"OH NO this game is gonna fail competetively!"
"Uh why is that again?"
"Well because it's not so easy to make it extremely one sided with a combo!"
"Uhhh yeah sure buddy..."

 

[Naoshi]

I don't think that's reasonable. If you take what is arguably the greatest competitive game engine of all time, it's going to attract people who aren't necessarily Nintendo fans. They shouldn't have to give up everything they love about Smash just for the opportunity to play as a new character from a game they didn't care about.

Granted, there is no reason for them to attack newer players. I do think the power of the "meleetist" is exaggerated though considering they are outnumbered 100 to 1 compared to casual elitists who are even louder and more rude. It's gotten to the point where if you are not 110% positive about Smash 4, then you must be an hater, and that kills a lot of fun discussion.

I actually agree. Sort of get to the point if you criticize Brawl's gameplay at all some people would think you're biased for Melee or something.

Unfortunately, this applies to any fandom. Can't like/dislike something without either side saying generalized stuff. It's a shame the loud vocal minority gives certain groups a real bad name. Honestly sort of makes me feel bad for liking Melee much more over Brawl.

Personally I don't mind if a game doesn't play like Melee, it just needs to feel fun and exciting, which I felt Brawl lacked (the latter especially). SSB4 thankfully feels very fun and exciting to play, I have yet to feel any shred of actual boredom playing it.

 

[kyxsune]

Honestly, I feel like sm4sh is at a near perfect distance between melee and brawl. Technical enough for some interesting depth, simple enough not to be fearsome for new comers. Of course, I'm placing my chips with it so to speak, so i'm biased.

 

[LordVacation]

Just let the babies have their ball.

If they want to needlessly complain, let'em.

Melee elitists to me are the guys who spend their time on reddit; so I've already made up my mind on them.

 

[Tino]

I really don't care what these people think, Smash 4 is just as perfect as the original Smash Bros. in my opinion. Brawl was alright though it would've been perfect without the tripping mechanic but regardless, I still enjoyed it.

 

[the8thark]

The main point I got from this is that Vectoring is RNG from the attacker's point of view. You will not have the exact same knockback and enemy landing point in each similar situation. This will make SSB4 harder to theory craft but I think it will make watching matches more interesting. And it gives the one on the receiving end of a smash some options instead of just being forced to wait till they land or try to jump out of it.

Add in how you earn parts, some trophies and the custom moves - all RNG based, I think you get the point. RNG in this sense is an artificial way to length the time we play the game. At times we're not playing for fun, we're playing to farm the few items that RNGeesus will not give us. That in the long term is never fun. And it's a dangerous road to be travelling.
Skyward Sword had the farming for RNG loot drops for the materials, Hyrule Warriors is almost all about farming RNG drops and now SSB4 has a huge part of the game that is RNG.

- Character equipment
- Some trophies
- Farming CDs
- Custom moves
- The angry birds mode
- The Mario Party mode (the dice roll is RNG)
- And there could be even more.

In short if you hate farming for items that only drop as RNG loot then you'll hate SSB4.

 

[otter]

The main point I got from this is that Vectoring is RNG from the attacker's point of view. You will not have the exact same knockback and enemy landing point in each similar situation.

I wish this were true. The problem is that unlike classic DI, vectoring can be mastered by a cat in 5 minutes. You can pretty much count on any opponent maximizing it off every hit.

 

[Blade Knight]

@ the8thark The dice roll in Smash Tour isn't RNG, it's on a set rotation so it's very easy to roll high every time if you want to. It always rolls in order from 1-6. Also that's hardly enough to ruin a smash game for anybody, you still have the base game and the playable characters from the start, the custom moves and equipment are just a nice bonus you get by playing the game normally.

Personally I find the statement "There’s a fair case to objectively describe Melee as the best game in the series." He further comments that "From every aspect of competitive game design, Melee is a better game." But that isn't all there is to it now is there, regardless of the fact that fighting games run an immense gambit of meta styles anyway. I mean just look at currently/recently popular fighting games and see how different they are; Marvel 3, USFIV, KoF13, Melee, Blazblue, and Guilty Gear all have different playstyles, metas, and feels of play. Melee, just as any other smash game in the series, arguably the objective worst game in the series from anything including a competitive standpoint. Even if I personally do think Melee as a competitive game is very well developed and can be fun to watch, that doesn't give it a free pass to 'Objective best'. Hell, I'd be one to argue P:M is quite simply a step up from Melee myself but that's a different point. It's certainly not a clear cut case of it being the OBJECTIVE best in the series, especially compared to a smash bros game that literally isn't even on the market yet on a console. We cannot objectively say if Melee will be or is better than Smash 4, since from an objective viewpoint there is not enough data to make such a call.

Also this particular statement:
"7. Say that the game is too young to judge. This excuse will get stretched out for ages. There will always be more metagame development needed."It's laughable to try and compare a game with 13 years of competitive meta development, tournaments, and so on, to a fledgeling game where only it's lesser version has been out for little more than a month. The game IS too young to judge, Melee was not built in a month, nor will Smash 4 be. In 6 months from now, a year from now, sure we can make more fair judgements, but it's laughable to even say that it's NOT too early to judge this game.

Overall it's a good article that points out both sides faults but gosh darn are those two very off base statements imo.

 

[the8thark]

@The8tharkThe dice roll in Smash Tour isn't RNG, it's on a set rotation so it's very easy to roll high every time if you want to. It always rolls in order from 1-6. Also that's hardly enough to ruin a smash game for anybody, you still have the base game and the playable characters from the start, the custom moves and equipment are just a nice bonus you get by playing the game normally.

The collectors who want to 100% the game will have to grind out the last few items or custom moves because of RNG. I agree with what you say, but that only applies to people with your mind set, that these things are just a random bonus. To others they are required collectables that, thanks to RNG, will take a while to farm.

 

[SuaveChaser]

I just support the games i like and try to keep it civil. Smash 4 is a pretty good game and fixed most of the issues i dislike about brawl but it still feels ultra defensive and not alot of approach options.

 

[RespawningJesus]

The main point I got from this is that Vectoring is RNG from the attacker's point of view. You will not have the exact same knockback and enemy landing point in each similar situation. This will make SSB4 harder to theory craft but I think it will make watching matches more interesting. And it gives the one on the receiving end of a smash some options instead of just being forced to wait till they land or try to jump out of it.

Add in how you earn parts, some trophies and the custom moves - all RNG based, I think you get the point. RNG in this sense is an artificial way to length the time we play the game. At times we're not playing for fun, we're playing to farm the few items that RNGeesus will not give us. That in the long term is never fun. And it's a dangerous road to be travelling.
Skyward Sword had the farming for RNG loot drops for the materials, Hyrule Warriors is almost all about farming RNG drops and now SSB4 has a huge part of the game that is RNG.

- Character equipment
- Some trophies
- Farming CDs
- Custom moves
- The angry birds mode
- The Mario Party mode (the dice roll is RNG)
- And there could be even more.

In short if you hate farming for items that only drop as RNG loot then you'll hate SSB4.

Kind of a stretch saying that if you hate RNG, you'll hate Smash 4. Honestly, I HATE RNG with a passion, which makes grinding out custom moves a chore. But do I haylet Smash 4? Not really, because the core game is still plenty of fun, and custom moves are not really necessary, considering most of them are just the same moves, but with different properties.

 

[Blade Knight]

The collectors who want to 100% the game will have to grind out the last few items or custom moves because of RNG. I agree with what you say, but that only applies to people with your mind set, that these things are just a random bonus. To others they are required collectables that, thanks to RNG, will take a while to farm.

Isn't that true of every smash game except 64 though? They all have an awful lot of random grinding for things, trophies in melee, some of which you cannot get without events that we never got, brawl had the godawful number of stickers and challenges that required luck on top of music which really SHOULD be unlocked at the start. Really the only part that's particularly irking is the music for me.

 

[the8thark]

Isn't that true of every smash game except 64 though? They all have an awful lot of random grinding for things, trophies in melee, some of which you cannot get without events that we never got, brawl had the godawful number of stickers and challenges that required luck on top of music which really SHOULD be unlocked at the start. Really the only part that's particularly irking is the music for me.

I wonder if you can make a CD factory in SSB4 like you could Brawl. That would make farming the CDs a lot easier.

 

[AngeloHollow]

This is a great article. The writer objectively analyzes Sm4sh and points out the stupid things that can, and will, happen on both sides of the inevitable division between Sm4sh and Melee players.

Let's learn from the past, so that we don't make the absurdity of history repeat itself.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/on-the-future-and-the-repeat-of-history/

Sometimes history repeats itself because people are learning about what happened, it doesn't necessarily require the lack of it.

Anyways, this iteration of smash was supposed to be designed for casual and competitive players alike. Having rage is a mechanic that is in another competitive fighting game called Tekken 6. You would need to have around, I think 10% or less health for this to take effect and essentially makes your fighter's attacks more powerful. Some games need a comeback mechanic, as long as it isn't over the top, and rage is not an over the top comeback mechanic. It allows the losing player the chance to still win the fight despite clearly being at an extreme disadvantage. Both players have to play smart, and if the losing player plays their cards right, then they'll win. If they screw up and miss an important kill chance, then they're going to lose because they didn't think the action through enough.

Now, since smash is a substantially different fighting game (many argue is a party game and not competitive in any aspect), it cannot have a traditional combo system, because there are no hit points in a standard match. It's a game where you get progressively lighter and you die if you get sent going off-stage and can't return. If we had more traditional combos like other fighting games, then Smash would be a mess because it would basically be impossible to actually fight back if you didn't know any combos. I know that Melee had combos because of hit stun, hit lag, and all that jazz, but it wasn't so bad to the point where the combo system was insane as say, BlazBlue or something else to that regard.

 

[PCHU]

Honestly, I feel like sm4sh is at a near perfect distance between melee and brawl. Technical enough for some interesting depth, simple enough not to be fearsome for new comers. Of course, I'm placing my chips with it so to speak, so i'm biased.

I lean more toward the Melee side of things (especially now that PM 3.5's out) because I just enjoy fast-paced battles and high technical ceilings (combined with challenging, yet simplistic movesets so that tech isn't a requirement for decent play, kinda like Peach).
Melee was fun for me because I like to mess around with tech between stocks rather than taunt or just stand there, but Smash 4 is pretty nice and, if they can break past their opposition to balance and alter this transcendent priority so that attacks actually neutralize others (namely non energy-based projectiles) rather than go through them/even out the hitstun/whatever, it'll be a lot more fun to me.
I don't mind a more cerebral game so long as I'm not hard countered due to someone flat-out not giving me options to deal with my opponent.
I still like the game, but after being stuck in a simple jab loop that isn't Ike's, juggled easily by every Mario/Fox's utilt, and facing a wall of projectiles, I'm a little disappointed to remember how Melee's system tended to encouraged more creative combos and attack strings.

On the bright side, it's very effective for teaching optimal spacing/option select; it's made me far more careful and has actually helped me improve overall, even if there's still a character barrier.

 

[SirIanAsh]

This is amazing! I can relate to this, many conversations I've had with Melee players have resulted in the same thing over and over again.

Sakurai changed melee because he wanted this franchise to apply to all people.
C'mon guys there are 8 year old kids playing this game, don't expect them to wave dash and all that stuff.
This game is a party game and kids would play it that way, if you like melee... Play it.

 

[Etc_Guy]

I think these people are going to go away soon, at least I hope so. Their annoying and ruined a possible good game for me (melee).
Meleeist overhyped me for a worse game than Brawl. I even favor Smash 64 over Melee!

My List of most to least favorite:

Smash4 Wii U (when it comes out)
Brawl
64
Melee

"OH NO this game is gonna fail competetively!"
"Uh why is that again?"
"Well because it's not so easy to make it extremely one sided with a combo!"
"Uhhh yeah sure buddy..."

(Double Post, forgot) My thoughts about them. Because Melee is the most broken with Fox/Falco and Sheik. Brawl had Meta Knight, but that's the worse it got.

 

[AngeloHollow]

This is amazing! I can relate to this, many conversations I've had with Melee players have resulted in the same thing over and over again.

Sakurai changed melee because he wanted this franchise to apply to all people.
C'mon guys there are 8 year old kids playing this game, don't expect them to wave dash and all that stuff.
This game is a party game and kids would play it that way, if you like melee... Play it.

It was horrible when how good you actually are at the game is irrelevant, since "skill" is dependent on how well you can use all the exploits present in the game. It creates such a large divide between players where if you can't use the glitches, then you basically shouldn't be playing. A game shouldn't be like that.

 

[SirIanAsh]

It was horrible when how good you actually are at the game is irrelevant, since "skill" is dependent on how well you can use all the exploits present in the game. It creates such a large divide between players where if you can't use the glitches, then you basically shouldn't be playing. A game shouldn't be like that.

Remember, son.
It's not about who won, or who lost.
It's about how much fun you've had.


Yup...

 

[AngeloHollow]

Football is just a game too. People rage about that all the time.

 

[Roko Jono]

It was horrible when how good you actually are at the game is irrelevant, since "skill" is dependent on how well you can use all the exploits present in the game. It creates such a large divide between players where if you can't use the glitches, then you basically shouldn't be playing. A game shouldn't be like that.

Calling techniques people have worked hard to develop over the years glitches or exploits does not add to the conversation and can only add to the flames. There are plenty of "exploits" in competitive gaming such as combos in street fighter (yes, combo's were considered a glitch they have thankfully left in the game ever since). Marvel 2 and 3 have their share of exploits, and glitches too. Speedrunners race while using the gflitches and exploits in games. The general consensus is that you HAVE to be able to L-cancel or Wavedash, but in reality, it depends on the character you want to play. In Tekken, you don't HAVE to learn how to EWGF unless you use a character that needs it.

Though you are right that they help a lot in high level play. The term glitch or exploit however, needs to go. It doesn't feel good for someone to come down raining on your parade yelling "oh you're just using glitches to win", which I highly doubt anyone high up in the competitive scene would ever say.

 

[Kage Me]

The “rage mechanic” is poor game design; it’s made for rubber banding. It means that the player who is “losing” has better kill options and can suddenly turn the tide. (...) In a fighting game, the winning player should have an advantage that he can use to press his opponent. The losing player has to then take riskier options that will either get him back in the game or end the game very quickly.

Nope. Not only does the author not fully understand the rage mechanic, but they also don't understand game design.

Imagine a situation wherein both players (Alice and Bob) are at 120%. Alice then gets a KO on Bob, who respawns with 0%. Bob now has less knock-back on his moves than he did before losing his stock, which gives Alice a little breathing room and an opportunity to build some damage on Bob before she goes down.

If stocks are equal but Bob has taken more damage than Alice, then yes, Bob's attacks have more knock-back. However, having a high percentage also means you take more knock-back. This means that Bob's kill moves become more powerful (higher reward) but if he leaves himself open, he's a goner (higher risk). This is a good thing. The game rewards Bob for taking risks when behind; if not for the rage mechanic, the correct decision would be to avoid fighting Alice and try to level the percentages with safe, boring play.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Next time, please do not make duplicate threads.

 

[Roukiske]

(Double Post, forgot) My thoughts about them. Because Melee is the most broken with Fox/Falco and Sheik. Brawl had Meta Knight, but that's the worse it got.

IMO I felt MK was more broken than Fox/Falco. Fox/Falco had their weaknesses such as being able to be combo'd in some ways that made them easy to be gimped at times, while I believe that MK had everything going for him with his actual combos, quick and strong attacks, and extremely good and safe specials. I feel this made him the near-ultimate character.

Edit: I love melee and I enjoy Smash 4 a whole lot. Definitely playing both games competitively.

 

[Code Bread]

Thank the nine that this was posted in the Smash 4 forum instead of the Melee forum. Or Reddit.

 

[Terotrous]

We already had a topic about this ages back and the consensus was that it was a crap article from someone who clearly doesn't play Smash4 and just wants the game to die in favour of Melee. It's just more subtle than most.

This was also posted within like days of Smash 4's release so don't expect it to be even slightly up to date.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We already had a topic about this ages back and the consensus was that it was a crap article from someone who clearly doesn't play Smash4 and just wants the game to die in favour of Melee. It's just more subtle than most.

This was also posted within like days of Smash 4's release so don't expect it to be even slightly up to date.

I don't think Praxis at all wanted that.

Though I agree that his doomsday parts about the techs are misinformed or just straight up wrong.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

This is a great article. The writer objectively analyzes Sm4sh and points out the stupid things that can, and will, happen on both sides of the inevitable division between Sm4sh and Melee players.

Let's learn from the past, so that we don't make the absurdity of history repeat itself.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/on-the-future-and-the-repeat-of-history/

This is a great article. The writer objectively analyzes Sm4sh and points out the stupid things that can, and will, happen on both sides of the inevitable division between Sm4sh and Melee players.

Let's learn from the past, so that we don't make the absurdity of history repeat itself.

http://www.meleeitonme.com/on-the-future-and-the-repeat-of-history/

The writer doesn't "objectively" do anything, he even starts the article off saying it's his opinion.

I don't even need to click to know you're probably referring to the Praxis write-up.

The fact of the matter is, even when a pro-melee player manages to use good syntax and verbosity, it doesn't make their message any less absurd: that they have any right to make declarations as to which Smash is better or more worth your time for any reason because they play Melee.

Melee players have made a new habit lately of playing the victim card in arguments, and his "What you will see players do" when it comes to Smash 4 players is obviously much more pronounced in contrast to his list for the Melee players. This is an article for MIOM after all, so I didn't expect a sliver of neutrality anyhow. That's really what this is, a slimy piece of "Melee is better" bias that's drenched in an attempt to appear non-bias but it's so easy to see right through it just by reading it.