Let's breathe some life into this forum

[selkies]

Hey everyone,

Warning, wall of text incoming! TL;DR at the bottom.

I've always loved Donkey Kong and in my endeavor to actually find a character in PM to main, I'm finally starting to settle down with Donkey Kong. I'm a huge fan of watching videos and reading up on guides and discussions to learn about characters. There's plenty of videos of people like Poob, Strong Bad, Mojohnbo, and other really great DKs and we have the great thread with all the videos in general discussion covering that, but what I'm really missing is discussion. The frame data thread is awesome and has a lot of great information, but that information is confusing and useless to someone who doesn't know how to navigate it or what to apply it to. Strong Bad's guide is absolutely amazing with a lot of awesome information, but with any guide that sets out to talk about a character as a whole including its entire moveset and tools all in one guide, it doesn't go into specifics. I mean, you could write an entire guide just on DK's tilts, or his recovery. There is so much more to think about, ask questions about, and discuss when it comes to DK's moves.

When exactly is down b the best option while tech chasing, and what are the best followups? What are the tools DK has for juggling-style combos and what are his finishers while juggling? Once I get the grab during neutral game, what's the best throw option, depending on where I am on the stage and what percentage my opponent is at, and what are the best followups? DK's neutral game is heavily based around grabbing, but what is DK's ultimate goal during matches when it comes to taking stocks (set up ledge guards, combo into finishers, gimp?)? When is it a better option to chase your opponent offstage for an edgeguard, or stay onstage with down tilts and smashes, or ledge hog? What should my thought process be when recovering with DK - when should I recover high, when should I try and sweet spot, and once I'm on the ledge, what are my best options for all situations? How can mobility tech like wave dashing, wave landing, and dash dancing be incorporated into my combos and neutral game? What are some changes I can make to my control scheme or how I actually input actions (I.E. c-stick for aerials vs direction+a) to make my combo game more consistent/easier to execute? What are DK's best matchups and worst matchups? Which stages should I try to avoid, and which ones should I try to pick?

These are all questions that facilitate enough discussion to fill up several pages of a thread each on their own, and I can keep going. These forums are pretty dead and have always been, Strong Bad's guide from a year ago says it was dead then too. So let's change that! I'm not a very skilled player, so I'm not looking to write up strategies or anything but I at least know enough about the game to ask questions that facilitate discussion and outline basic fundamental strategies/techniques to build a foundation to go from. I'm looking to make these discussion threads a regular thing, maybe every other few days post a new discussion or just whenever a discussion seems to be dying out. Or maybe it'd be a good idea to post multiple discussion threads at once. I'd definitely encourage anyone to not only participate in these threads by asking questions and offering input, but also make new threads of their own; these could be threads for questions that are a bit deeper than your average asking for a tip kind of question (I.E. how do I recover against Diddy or Link), or they could be threads by people who are great at DK and want to share some tips or experience (I.E. here are good ways to recover against Diddy and Link I've found). I'd really love to see the DK forums be revived, or really just brought to life, since it seems like it never really lived in the first place.

So, I'd love for anyone to come forward and say any ideas for discussions, or just tell me my idea's bad and I should feel bad. I'm really just looking for some confirmation that there are people here that do want to at the very least see some discussion and/or content about Donkey Kong, if not be the ones doing the discussing. We're fortunate enough to have people like Poob and Mojohnbo who have lots of tournament experience and visit the forums already in an effort to actually help people with their DK game. I think what this forum needs to come alive with discussion is just some direction and someone to push it in that direction. It really does seem like there are a good amount of people who want the discussion here, based on the threads that have been made and contributed to thus far, it just tends to die out if no one really pushes the discussion or brings up another one, then the next discussion happens over a week or a month later. I'm happy to play the role of facilitator for the discussions, even if at the end of the day I'm just another scrub that's looking for advice or just general reading material. I'd imagine that there's so many DK players and PM players who were thinking of picking up DK that have come to this forum looking for some sort of discussion or something to encourage them to learn DK's techniques. The forum being so dead discourages people from being here longer than the 30 sconds it takes to see that it's dead. Let's get this moving!

TL;DR: DK forums have been and are dead, but there's potential for them to live. Between the fact that DK is a character with just as much, if not more, depth as all the other characters in PM and the fact that we have some great DK players that come here, we can get these forums going. I'd like to start posting discussion threads regularly even if just to get people talking; I think having at least one thread floating around will encourage others to post, whether it's a question or tip.

Let me know what you guys think!

 

[POOB]

I like the encouragement. Ive tried in the past but it eventually just came down to me posting guides/answering questions by myself since not enough people answered questions, which was simply too much for me so i stopped and its been pretty much dead ever since. Hopefully we can get more dk's out there to post stuff. Btw, u should check out the dk skype group thread and post your skype name there so we can add u, we do actually talk about stuff there sometimes. Its like a group instant messaging chat

 

[selkies]

Thanks for the response, Poob! I've gone into the skype thread and posted my skype name. I definitely see what you're saying about it being too much, it really is too much for just one person to be the active experienced player in the forum. It might be that way for a bit, but I'm thinking if we get some momentum with discussion threads going, our number of active contributors will begin to grow. I'm willing to bet we get a lot of people that come to this forum, click around a couple threads, then realize that it's very inactive and just leave. If we can stay active, those couple people here and there will start adding up.

P.S. I don't know if you remember me but a few weeks ago I went to my very first tournament for PM ever, and my first match was against you in the winner's bracket because I got a bye the first round. You completely bodied me with Ganondorf, I was playing Samus. At least I can say my first ever tournament set was against Poob in the winner's bracket lmao

 

[POOB]

Oh wow i do remember that! Lol. Your opponent didnt show up so we had to play round 2 for your first match right? Also you were used to playing on a laggy tv and was thrown off by the crt tv's

 

[selkies]

Yeah I was pretty salty about johning to you. I was like seriously I just played Poob and johned to him, I'm such a scrub

 

[SSS]

Lol CRT hype. Better get one.

Okay so I have something to share with you. My absolute favorite thing to do in PM and Melee is upthrowing under a platform, wavelanding onto the platform, and techchase regrabbing. It is the greatest thing ever. I try to do it with every character. I saw M2K do it with Marth once and I fell in love. In Melee I do it with Marth, and I'll uthrow a spacie with Puff under a platform, waveland techchase grab, uthrow to rest, and it's godlike.

With DK it works just as well (except I usually use cargo uthrow to do it).

Just a little something I'd share with you.

 

[CBO0tz]

Something I'm curious about looking for in PM's DK is new meta. It bothers me that DK is on like, D-tier, while his buddy Diddy is top tier.
I had an idea that maybe DK could get an update to his Down-B where instead of slapping the ground, he slaps somebody directly below him in a semi spike, but that probably wouldn't help change his place in tier lists.
Maybe DK had some really good moves in Smash 64 that could return?

 

[Dad?!?]

I hope this thread takes off. I have so much to learn about DK.

For example, what's the advantage of jumping and cargo upthrowing right before hitting the ground? Does the aerial cargo upthrow send them less far than the grounded one?

 

[Planet Piss]

Something I'm curious about looking for in PM's DK is new meta. It bothers me that DK is on like, D-tier, while his buddy Diddy is top tier.
I had an idea that maybe DK could get an update to his Down-B where instead of slapping the ground, he slaps somebody directly below him in a semi spike, but that probably wouldn't help change his place in tier lists.
Maybe DK had some really good moves in Smash 64 that could return?

I agree.
I think DK has enough spikes, however. His fair can prevent sweetspots and is extremely strong, his dair is a Falcon-esque big foot, and forward B is a dirty, dirty move. His 64 self was kind of terrible in relation to his PM self.

Here are some of my ideas, but I'd like to hear others' suggestions for advancing the DK meta. Things are looking better than they have in early P:M days, though.

New meta was something that wasn't and largely still isn't huge in P:M DK. He's similar to his Melee self, but now all of his moves are good. For some reason, however, many still play him like he's 1) stuck in Melee and 2) only been buffed in a couple of areas. Some examples:
-Uairing repeatedly to rack up damage with no ultimate end goal
-Bairing the crap out of opponents in neutral with little to no emphasis placed on spacing or timing (this move is not as fast but has more active frames and reach than its Melee iteration.)
-Over-reliance on nair as if it is a sex kick, while in reality it has different utility

I don't mean to sound like I'm the only one who knows DK very well, but the fact that there are good DKs around doesn't mean that he is even half-developed in terms of meta. Basically, he's not Fox and doesn't get mileage out of stuff like cargo-uthrow into uair against floaties (unless it kills, of course.) DK players have to be creative. The notion of "playing safe" doesn't really apply to DK. You have to play smartly, creatively, and sometimes dangerously. You have to pick options that aren't necessarily "guaranteed". Ex. Replace an uair with a double bair and you can combo opponents for longer. Full jump weak bair into immediate (no jump) forward+b spike is, in chess terms, the "best move" at certain percents. Bair into bair or nair into nair is "guaranteed", but neither will kill opponents who can DI semi-proficiently. The success of strange options depends on tech skill as well as a bit of problem-solving.

In general, I'm discussing the use of gimmicky options for neutral game without using true mix-ups. Many characters in PM have character gimmicks that actually work competitively, and appear less raw than Melee characters because of their relative lack in necessity to use separate button inputs to get successful hits. Spacies' shine, in Melee, for example, is actually a reflector-shield (mind=blown). Fox/Falco are intended to reflect projectiles by holding the shine command, which is something that makes them unique--a gimmick of theirs. Falcon has Falcon Punch, Marth has shield-breaker, etc. These moves are character gimmicks that may or may not work well in tournament play. However, in P:M, character gimmicks (something perhaps canon and generally neutral-game based) are made with competitive play in mind, so projectiles like Mario's fireballs or several dash-attacks (DK's semi-included) give characters easier ins. Moves like Yoshi's egg roll combine approach into attack--other examples being Kirby's dash-attack, Link's items, and Sonic in general.

Where DK fits into this: He isn't as good at this as other characters. I know it's every P:M player's pet rebuttal that every character has its broken attributes, and I know it sounds a lot like "I have to work harder to play my character than you work for playing yours", but DK's success in neutral is barred from a high-level with gimmicky play. Simply put, DK can't fill the stage with fire, throw bombs and boomerangs while standing behind a shield, hammer on shields DGAF style, or move-in too fast to be punished. DK's dash-attack--and by slight extension, his dash-grab--are his only approach gimmicks, and against patient, mid-high level opponents, they won't be successful. My overall point is that DK has excellent potential in neutral which is often squandered in lieu of his incredible punish game. DK has to use a multitude of options, in neutral and while comboing, in order to be successful.

If you're playing a numbers game; if you run in with nair after a couple of dash-dances or risk crouch-cancel/shield punish on a mid-stage dash-attack, then your DK isn't what it could be. He's fast, but not fast enough to avoid most players' reactions. His falling speed is also somewhat fast, but he's no Falcon. He can't DJ into a FF dair (as reliably) to bait-and-switch shield-grabs. He's huge, and thereby extremely easy to combo, and he has no vertical recovery. He is a better contender than what he's made out to be, though, and has a ton of solid options for different circumstances, and these options almost all depend on mix-ups.
Here's a list of the stuff I use, and I'm sure there is more. Note: The things I listed previously aren't bad, but are used too frequently and gimmicky for DK to make a leap in meta.

P:M DK in general:
-Baits: player-player conditioning. This is necessary. You have to not only learn your opponents' habits, but with all these amazing new character builds, force them out as well.
-Spacing/timing split: Alternating between well-spaced and well-timed moves, based on my last point, will produce baits. Of course it's beneficial to both space and time moves well, but your opponents will learn your habits too easily if you don't mix-up.
-Fast fall vs. no fastfall (Thank Mango for this trick): Opponents expecting a fast-falled nair may come out of their shields early.
-Close-up vs. far away (The toes of bair vs' the quads, dtilt vs. jab, dash-grab vs. JC grab): Alternations between well-spaced moves and moves which come closer. Keeping opponents from coming in (defensive play), or going in (offensive). Poor spacing, when well-timed (low to the ground, generally), makes opponents think you messed-up. Try low bair on shield-->up+b.
-Intrinsic move differences, especially subtle differences: down+B for a tech read as opposed to going in and trying for grab, for example.
-Using literally all of his moves at some point or other
-Knowing percents
-Knowing specific hitboxes on moves and where/when they are active
-Knowing IASA timing
-Playing intuitively vs. playing on reaction: Hit-confirms as opposed to reaction-based combos, and vise-versa. Think Falcon's uair strings into knee vs. Falco's dash-attack into dair (spike kill).
-DI Mix-ups: Dash dance nair under a floaty who thinks you're trying to pursue a combo from below. Up+b opponents who are trying to use escape DI. Turning around repeatedly while in cargo-mode and/or mixing-up cargo b-throw and f-throw to get optimal DI for a kill. Cargo uthrow is not the end-all be-all; it's a complete myth that there is an objectively consistent way to get out of it, save for player reaction time.
-Reads in general: do them.
-Weak/strong hits

That's all for now.

 

[POOB]

Dad, youre probably thinking of when i was on the bottom of lets say battlefield for example, and i full hopped and up throwed right when i landed on the platform. This is so i get extra height when i want to kill with up throw up air so it will kill earlier

 

[Luckey]

Yo. I got some questions and stuff.
1. What are our best options immediately after snapping to ledge against a neutral opponent located on stage?
A) we have get up attack under 100%
B) normal get up
C) drop down snap back reset
D) fair, dair, uair, nair with some invincibility
E) charged dk punch with some invincibility
F) waveland with some invincibility into grab, jab, ftilt
I've been a big fan of C followed by D,F and sometimes A. However, I find it harder to perfectly waveland with dk. I can do it pretty easily with faster chars but the timing just seems to bother me with dk. Any tips? (I use tap down>y>Quarter circle>R) Also, with perfect timing, what aerials start their hit boxes before invincibility wear off?

2. What are our best options after dash attack both on the ground and ledge cancelled? I've been a fan of jump cancelled grab against shields on the ground and waveland pivot grabs against grounded shielding foes after dash attacking off platforms. Also, jumping out and wave landing on the opposite platform is pretty great on stages like battlefield, yoshis, dreamland, etc. There is a lot of depth to this move and I hope we can explore more of the nuances.

3. Shield grab is a great oos option for defending aerials when we can get it, but so seldom will good players allow for it. Between cross overs, fast moves after lcancel (shine, Mario dsmash, jabs, etc.) and proper spacing it becomes very high risk. (Although high reward) upb and reverse upb can help but even it can come out too slow against something like shffl dair shine pressure from falco, wave dashing oos is great, but with dks long jump animation, it's also a little slow for my taste.
So against a lot of fast shield pressure we have:
A) wd oos
B) upb oos
C) buffer roll (which I kinda hate)

Upsmash oos seems too slow. Any other suggestions or thoughts?

What are our options following a down b that send our opponent into a teching situation on a platform?
A) follow up with an aerial
B) jump waveland regrab
C) jump waveland downb
D) jump waveland charge dsmash
E) jump waveland jab into other cool things
F) double jump dair, fair
G) jump waveland, fall through platform, uair or double jump aerial

I used to do a lot of A but it's way too difficult. I've been a big fan of options B, C, E and F. (D at high percentage) what do you find to be most effective?

Lastly, what are our best options after landing a nair or bair against shields?
A) grab
B) jab
C) dtilt
D) dash away or through
E) wd
F) roll

I'm sure there are plenty more, but what are some thoughts on these? Personally I go for B and C a lot. D and E seem too slow but maybe I'm doing it wrong.

 

[TimepilotChkn]

I haven't gotten the chance to smash a lot lately (Local weekly Smashfest lost its venue). So I'll hold off until I can play again tomorrow to really expound on my general DK thoughts and to give my answers to the questions posed.

However I will contribute now by saying a really cool mixup I managed to win a match with at one such Smashfest.

You can turn Big Punches between the wind-up and the punch. Which can lead to some nice baits if somebody is pressuring you. Obviously low-percentage. But damn it was cool when I hit it.

Dk versus Falcon. 1 stock left each. I'm already at kill percent. He's pressuring me hard. I managed to grab a hold of him and get him up to kill percent. We're on either end of Battlefield after I drop the combo. He starts dash dancing on his side of the stage. I decide to charge my Big Punch, as I like to use it to force players to approach in the neutral game. Unfortunately I mess up and turn away from Falcon as I begin to wind. After ~3 winds he realizes I **** up and dashes and short hops over to punish. I turn the punch right as he gets past max range. Game! So Satifying.

Yeah, tomorrow I'll post again with some more of my thoughts on the Donkey Kong meta and what I like to do with the first member of the DK crew.