Meta Let the Battles Begin! - Cloud Matchup Thread

Blue Mage · Nov 17, 2015

Figured I'd go ahead and get this going. Once Cloud finally gets released, we'll have a place to dump matchup info and discuss what characters are troubling us. I've been informed this will most likely get locked until Cloud is actually released, but at least we'll have a nice thread ready for info.

If there are any errors or misinformation that I might have missed, please inform me and I will correct it asap.

VS Bowser

|

VS Bowser Jr.

|

VS Captain Falcon

|

VS Charizard

|

VS Cloud

|

VS Dark Pit

|

VS Diddy Kong

|

VS Donkey Kong

|

VS Dr. Mario

|

VS Duck Hunt

|

VS Falco

|

VS Fox

|

VS Ganondorf

|

VS Greninja

|

VS Ike

|

VS Jigglypuff

|

VS King Dedede

|

VS Kirby

|

VS Link

|

VS Little Mac

|

VS Lucario

|

VS Lucas

|

VS Lucina

|

VS Luigi

|

Blue Mage · Nov 17, 2015

reserved just in case

Hanku Hirru · Dec 18, 2015

Welcome, everyone -- our favorite hero of Midgar joins the fray and this is the new match up discussion and analysis project!

Gold Saucer Guidelines

Quality Posts: Post relevant, detailed responses when possible. Avoid simple match up ratios/scores as they do little more than add numerical value to a match and we need thorough data; however, there is a data table provided below for members who do wish to use a scoring system. Providing hard data or tournament replays to support your post is always appreciated.
Civil Discussion: A discussion has more value when conducted in a civil manner. Have fun, but please avoid the jackassery and show some respect.
Full Potential: Always assume that both characters are being played to their full potential -- nothing less.

Let the Battles Begin!

The Overall Matchup Score: Which character has the advantage over the other, and by how much. See below for definitions.
How The Matchup Should Be Optimally Played: How to fight the opponent more efficiently and deal with them. General do's and don'ts of the matchup.
Relavant Data: Frame data and tournament replays, among other things.
Stage Choice: Which stages should be chosen against the opponent, and which stages should be avoided. Also, how the stage elements factor in to the matchup.

FIGHT ON! -- Various States of Gameplay

Neutral - Neither character have any significant positional advantages
Cloud's Advantages - How does Cloud establish an advantageous position and how does he optimize his opponent's disadvantage?
Cloud's Disadvantages - How does Cloud minimize damage while in a disadvantaged state what are his options to mitigate his struggles?
Cloud Edge/Ledge guarding - What tools does the opponent have while recovering and how does Cloud convert edge guards into stocks?
Cloud on Recovery - What are the opponents edge/ledge guarding capabilities and how does Cloud best handle them when recovering?
Cloud at a distance - What options does the opponent have when Cloud is at a distance and how does Cloud effectively close the gap? Is this a neutral position? Advantageous? Disadventageous?
Cloud at mid range - What tools does Cloud and the opponent have at their disposal when he is mid range? What options does Cloud posses order to reach an advantageous position?
Cloud in close quarters - What are Cloud's and his opponent's tools in this state? Is this an advantageous position for Cloud? What of his opponent? Specifically, what should Cloud do to space optimally to convert into an advantageous position?

Battle Square Points Score Card

+4 = decisive advantage for Cloud
+3 = large advantage for Cloud
+2 = medium advantage for Cloud
+1 = small advantage for Cloud
±0 = even or insignificant (dis)advantages for Cloud
-1 = small disadvantage for Cloud
-2 = medium disadvantage for Cloud
-3 = large disadvantage for Cloud
-4 = decisive disadvantage for Cloud

Credits: Inspiration for the format taken from @EnGarde and his Ph1r3 of Pherae: Roy Match-Up Discussion Directory.

Within the coming week we'll have our first batch of match up threads created. Stay tuned!

ぱみゅ · Dec 24, 2015

And so one week has gone by, we may now begin discussion
:196:

FightingPolygon · Dec 24, 2015

Let's see...

I'd say, Zelda will be having a bit of a hard time with him. She has to have a slight advantage over characters that camp and charge, since she can reflect. Cloud's the only one that has a non-projectile charge, that he can camp with.

The only thing she has over him is that she can edgeguard him, but that applys to pretty much every character Vs. Cloud anyway.

So, I'm guessing Cloud Vs. Zelda is... 70-30? Or 60-40, maybe? Either way, I think its a free win for Cloud.

DJ Casca · Dec 24, 2015

There was a lot of discussion about Cloud Vs. Shiek in my region. To me the deciding factor was if needles cancel with blade beam without limit break. According to one of the extensive guides on Cloud, needles DO NOT cancel blade beam and so Shiek wins the neutral.

Cloud's combo game can rival that of Shiek and in terms of raw kill power and the match up would be even if it wasn't for one thing:

CLOUD'S
GOD
AWFUL
RECOVERY.

With Shiek being the master of gimping people at will, this match-up becomes one about stage control, which cloud cant do with blade beam.

40-60 in Shiek's favor

Buckstrom · Dec 24, 2015

It always irks me that people decide matchups for Cloud and make their judgement 75% based on Cloud's recovery. Give me a break here.

I haven't played any high level Sheiks yet (thanks for having variety, Anther's!) but from what I can tell this is what we have against this illusive ninja:

+ Needles and grounded Blade Beam go past each other, resulting in a trade. If Needles are full, at a distance both take 6-8% and reset to neutral. If Needles are not full, there's still end lag so Sheik would still eat that beam. And I hope you're not using Blade Beam at close range :/
+ She falls fast, so if we catch her with an uptilt, dtilt, upair or maybe nair, we can juggle her as long as we're wary of the RPS possibilities Sheik can use to escape (Jump, Airdodge, Attack)
+ Up-B out of shield is a great option to counter pressure, and while it can be baited some platforms make landing a bit easier. Nair out of shield might help against opponents that are behind us, though getting that initial hitbox can be tricky.
+ Limit Break improves our mobility and helps loads with controlling the pace of the match since Sheik has to play defensively in the face of the following threats: A projectile that kills in red percents; a crazy fast Cross Slash that can kill at 90; and a frame 7 Climhazzard that can kill at 140%, potentially lower with rage or being midair, that is possible to use out of shield.
+ If we get Sheik offstage and we have Limit ready, get ready for this: We can edgeguard her. Crazy, right? She can't use Bouncing Fish if we're in any respectable position, unless she's using it for a wall jump which should leave her quite vulnerable anyways for good ol' Cross Slash or even Finishing Touch if you're feeling ballsy. Her options are to recover low or sweetspot the edge with Vanish. A low recovery allows you to setup a trump, but with the trump option you can also bait out a buffered ledge roll or jump which of course is a punish if you read it, and Cloud punishes hard.

* A particular option I love to do is run right off the edge and "KYO Edgehog", which is inhabiting the edge with your automatic Cross Slash and stage spiking. Its hitboxes are active for a total of 6 frames, spanned through frames 10-11, 15, 23, 29, and 41. If any of Sheik's two frames of invulnerability gets caught by one of these hits, and you are positioned low enough, that's a stage spike. It's possible to be so close to the stage that the move becomes untechable, which is easier if you land a hit before the launching hitbox. You can land safely on stage right afterwards, though if you whiff stage control shifts about 40:60 in Sheik's favor as I'd measure by Smash Theory. Still a fun option if you fancy playing with some jank ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

+ At the point of the neutral where both players are at high percent, I believe Cloud is actually more in favor than Sheik unless Cloud is at the percentage where her fair would kill. As long as both players have to respect each others' distance, Cloud gets Limit Charge, and Sheik has to respect Cloud's distance since his upair kills and his nair can outrange her.

= Our weight makes us combo food, so Sheik can take advantage of us better at low percents. She's going to struggle a lot with killing, however.
= Sheik might have superior frame data, but it's not an easy task to infiltrate the defensive abilities Cloud has while he charges up. That said, we NEED platforms. A good Sheik will take us to FD or Lylat (for those damn edges *~*) since there's more favor in breaking zones than making zones due to the flat and straightforward layout.

I'll write up all of the disadvantages later since I've tired out being such an optimist with all the good stuff we have going for us

Even though that recovery can be a problem it's not that bad as long as you know what you're doing. MU's a 50:50 by me.

Fenriraga · Dec 24, 2015

I mentioned this a few days ago, but Cloud seems to favor the Rosaluma Matchup. It doesn't matter what Rosalina does with Luma either with her or out roaming, Cloud has so many options to absolutely decimate Luma. A significant number of his moves send Luma into freefall, even when they re spawn with a fresh HP bar. Without limits, he can knock Luma around enough to keep him from trying anything, and with a full limit gauge even his Blade Beam can knock Luma offstage with ease, even with Rosalina shielding. Cloud's attacks are wide and strong enough to poke Luma away from Rosalina, even if she's shielding. When Luma is gone, it can be fairly tough for Rosalina to outspace or stall long enough for Luma to respawn, Top that off with his fairly decent movement options to get where he needs to be, and Rosalina's lightweight status, and I think Cloud really shines against her. His up air and down air even linger as long as Rosalina's up and down air. Obviously it's not a TOTALLY lost cause, Rosalina can gimp him fairly easily, especially if she can keep a Luma around enough to chase him offstage, and she can still punish some of Cloud's more unsafe moves. But I do feel this is an instance where Cloud has an advantege.

CptPuff · Dec 25, 2015

Cloud seems to struggle against pikachu, but not to the level of, say, falcon.

With Cloud's up-air, nair, and general range, he's able to catch pikachu out of his up-b fairly consistently. Other than that small advantage, piachu is able to gimp Cloud excessively hard with his back-air off stage, which requires a pretty tight tech that may prove difficult to pull of in tournament play (or maybe I'm bad lol).

Pikachu is so light, however, that Cloud's f-smash and uair can kill earlier than some options other characters who also struggle in the MU have.

I'd say 60-40 Pikachu.

Buckstrom · Dec 25, 2015

Cloud is pretty good at shutting down Pikachu's tricky movement attempts with that nair and can keep him from getting in with range, but again, combo food once we lose the neutral. We still have our pretty decent Up-B for aerial counters and escapes.

LB Blade Beam might be useful here but you'd need to charge more often.

TheGoodGuava · Dec 25, 2015

I'm going to consider Cloud's matchup with Sheik even or almost even until I see more tournament results. He has an answer to everything she can do. Cloud has the advantage in kill power, with Finishing Touch covering every ledge option if you space it correctly. Sheik may have an advantage with gimping, but that requires stage control, which he will not easily forfeit. He has a massive projectile that trades with needles, nothing she can do is especially safe against him and can charge LB while being camped without any consequence. You can also gimp her, albeit with a lot more precision. Try catching her bouncing fish with dair, fair, or bair. If you have limit break it might be worth your time to use your neutral b, it wins nearly every trade and offstage it will kill her at maybe 40% depending on where she is next to the blast zones. She will probably take you to Lylat, and honestly everyone but characters with poor recoveries will. Large stages with good platforms will help you, so I recommend town and city or duck hunt.

Buckstrom · Dec 26, 2015

Whenever I encounter projectile zoners such as

and

, I usually throw Fox or Marth at them since I'm terrible at handling them as Cloud. However, what do you guys think do we have that can tip the match into our favor?

Kuraudo · Dec 26, 2015

Buckstrom said:
Whenever I encounter projectile zoners such as and , I usually throw Fox or Marth at them since I'm terrible at handling them as Cloud. However, what do you guys think do we have that can tip the match into our favor?

We have the ability to make them stop fighting as a zoner. That's the beauty of Cloud. A lot of Cloud's moves have the ability to stuff Mega Man & Toon Link's projectiles (most of them at least) if you're not shielding them. Also? One very important thing about fighting projectile zoners? Is this,

Cloud needs to play defensive. Make them sweat when you begin to build your Limit gauge so that the second they start to come closer and quit zoning you? You overtake them with your superior neutral control. The biggest mistake that you can make is getting too aggressive with Cloud. You should be charging to unleash your Limit Breaks on so that it forces a more favourable/damaging/close-quarters combat situation. It's not the same amount of power as Little Mac's KO Punch, but Cloud being able to make people fear his early kill power and the impulse to try and STOP him from building it up is something we can use to our advantage.

To really mess with Mega Man and Toon Link as well? Learn to z-catch their Metal Blades and Bombs. For Mega Man? That's scary because now he's lost his best zoning tool. Crash Bomber can be shielded, leaf shield as well, Charge Shot is predictable and slow to zone with, and the best thing he's got going for him now is Mega Buster shots but he has to get closer for those too. He throws one of those out when you have Limit Break? He's eating Blade Beam or you're shielding through them before using Cross Slash. You take away his Metal Blade and start holding onto it while building your gauge, you control the on-stage game.

As for Toon Link, it's a little harder because you can't keep his bomb forever for obvious reasons.

But similar rules apply like I said before. Play defensive, camp, build your Limit Break, make him come closer because eventually he's gonna need to try and net the kill either on-stage or off-stage. Just so happens that you're WAY stronger with the on-stage killing options.

Ark of Silence101 · Dec 26, 2015

How is Cloud faring in the Rosalina MU?

Fenriraga · Dec 26, 2015

Ark of Silence101 said:
How is Cloud faring in the Rosalina MU?

I just mentioned it the other day. Nothing concrete, but these are my thoughts on it.

DarkMakoPS1 said:
I mentioned this a few days ago, but Cloud seems to favor the Rosaluma Matchup. It doesn't matter what Rosalina does with Luma either with her or out roaming, Cloud has so many options to absolutely decimate Luma. A significant number of his moves send Luma into freefall, even when they re spawn with a fresh HP bar. Without limits, he can knock Luma around enough to keep him from trying anything, and with a full limit gauge even his Blade Beam can knock Luma offstage with ease, even with Rosalina shielding. Cloud's attacks are wide and strong enough to poke Luma away from Rosalina, even if she's shielding. When Luma is gone, it can be fairly tough for Rosalina to outspace or stall long enough for Luma to respawn, Top that off with his fairly decent movement options to get where he needs to be, and Rosalina's lightweight status, and I think Cloud really shines against her. His up air and down air even linger as long as Rosalina's up and down air. Obviously it's not a TOTALLY lost cause, Rosalina can gimp him fairly easily, especially if she can keep a Luma around enough to chase him offstage, and she can still punish some of Cloud's more unsafe moves. But I do feel this is an instance where Cloud has an advantege.

Ark of Silence101 · Dec 26, 2015

All right I have another question, I know I have to wait until solid and concrete results are in but how good is Cloud in the Ike MU so far?

Buckstrom · Dec 27, 2015

Cloud:Ike is a 55:45 or maybe even a 60:40 MU. I don't know much about Ike's approaches or combos so bear with me here.

Cloud is basically a whole upgrade to Ike's moveset with the exception of throws. We literally have basically his exact same a-button moveset but with buffs:
Nair is faster and has less lag.
Fair is "snappier", more akin to Brawl Ike's Fair; and it is capable of spiking.
Uair has a lot less general lag on it, and its startup is fast.
Bair has more range.
Dair has a lingering hitbox (that we can potentially combo out of!)
Jab is a bit faster (no jab cancels unfortunately)
Dash attack is faster.
Dtilt can't be teched and is much better at starting combos while being less vulnerable.
Utilt can juggle and is much faster.
Ftilt is slighty quicker and a bit safer on shield, albeit a bit shorter on range)

And for specials, two of Ike's are very situational, those being Counter (for reads) and Eruption. One thing I do fear is that if we have to recover low and Ike has stage control, Eruption has super armor frames that our recovery can't pierce, meaning we're going to get bopped at the edge if Ike times it right. This sends us up if it doesn't kill (which it shouldn't hopefully since if you gave Ike time to charge that thing while you recovered you'd have done goofed in any matchup) which Ike can't really challenge because we can airdodge or attack until we land on the stage or M2K up-b sweetspot the edge. Ike's recovery is just as exploitable as ours, if not more vulnerable. Quick Draw can be eaten by Nairs or a well timed Fair, and we can occasionally land Blade Beam on Aether if Ike's recovering low. Recovery is one disadvantage on us overshadowed by an even bigger one on Ike, which is good.

We can control the stage a lot better than Ike can. While Ike only has melee attacks to back him up and has to approach head on or outspace his opponents with slow and sometimes risky sword attacks, Cloud can do exactly that and more. Cloud's agility benefits his combo game on this heavy mercenary, and we have just as big of a Buster as Ragnell so range is in our favor since we can attack without necessarily having to commit. Our Up-B doubles as a combo breaker and Side-B can rack up some fresh damage. We benefit from not having to approach thanks to Limit Break, and Limit!Cloud would be a 65:35 Ike since we threaten his unsafeness a lot more.

However, Ike can deal a lot more damage per attack on us than we can, and since both of us are heavy swordsmen with good combo games, it's a war over who can take momentum and begin going ham on the other. He has combo throws that dish out lots of damage, so he can get more mileage over pressuring our shield that we can on his. And... not quite sure what other advantages he has over us. We're Ike 2.0, after all.

Hanku Hirru · Dec 28, 2015

While I'm glad to see that there's a match up thread, this is really disorganized and we shouldn't be covering characters on a flavor of the day basis. There should be sub threads (or at least some consistent means of discussing match ups) with week-long discussions dedicated to a specific match up. It'll allow for the specific match up to get its time to shine before it stales and once it does slow down, the community can move onto the next discussion.

Buckstrom : Ike match up is a hell of a lot closer than what you're indicating, especially if you toss in Ryo-esque shenanigans. Cloud does hold an overall advantage, but it's minimal at best. Also, Ike's jab 1 and 2 are faster than Cloud's and are great poking and setting up combos.

Ike's Frame Data

Cloud's Frame Data

Yes, Cloud wins neutral and his mobility gives him an advantage regarding stage control, but unless he's got an LB charge or the player manages miraculous, perfect vanilla Climhazzard recovery; he's going to struggle getting back on stage and that'll be the area in which Ike will excel. Ike has some really solid edge guarding tools, especially against characters with subpar recovery (i.e Counter makes Cloud it's ***** if Climhazzard doesn't ledge snap, D-tilt, walk off Bair, Fair strings, full hop Nair to cover rolling or vanilla get-up, Eruption, etc.). So needless to say, both fighters strengths mitigate their weakness, making for a fairly even fight. This -- compared to other potential match ups -- will be the epitome of footsies and patience. Which player capitalizes on their opponent's mistakes?

I love Cloud and he's such a blast to play, but don't sleep on my boy, Ike; especially when he fights for his friends.

Ark of Silence101 · Dec 28, 2015

Hanku Hirru said:
While I'm glad to see that there's a match up thread, this is really disorganized and we shouldn't be covering characters on a flavor of the day basis. There should be sub threads (or at least some consistent means of discussing match ups) with week-long discussions dedicated to a specific match up. It'll allow for the specific match up to get its time to shine before it stales and once it does slow down, the community can move onto the next discussion.

Buckstrom : Ike match up is a hell of a lot closer than what you're indicating, especially if you toss in Ryo-esque shenanigans. Cloud does hold an overall advantage, but it's minimal at best. Also, Ike's jab 1 and 2 are faster than Cloud's and are great poking and setting up combos.

Ike's Frame Data

Cloud's Frame Data

Yes, Cloud wins neutral and his mobility gives him an advantage regarding stage control, but unless he's got an LB charge or the player manages miraculous, perfect vanilla Climhazzard recovery; he's going to struggle getting back on stage and that'll be the area in which Ike will excel. Ike has some really solid edge guarding tools, especially against characters with subpar recovery (i.e Counter makes Cloud it's ***** if Climhazzard doesn't ledge snap, D-tilt, walk off Bair, Fair strings, full hop Nair to cover rolling or vanilla get-up, Eruption, etc.). So needless to say, both fighters strengths mitigate their weakness, making for a fairly even fight. This -- compared to other potential match ups -- will be the epitome of footsies and patience. Which player capitalizes on their opponent's mistakes?

I love Cloud and he's such a blast to play, but don't sleep on my boy, Ike; especially when he fights for his friends.

On aerials Ike's fair and bair win by a landslide but Cloud has the edge with upair and dair(albeit basically a negligible advantage with the last one).

Browny · Dec 28, 2015

I've been playing a ton of Cloud and Mewtwo since release on both sides vs mains of each. You can just switch the pros/cons around to get it from the Cloud perspective.

Pros
Mewtwo can camp Clouds landing extremely hard with full charge shadowball, dash attack and upsmash.

Mewtwos falling nair will kill cloud offstage if it hits and outlasts airdodges, this is almost impossible to dodge sometimes.

Clouds uair isnt very useful against Mewtwo who can float around to avoid it.

You're often going to lose limit break by being forced to recover as Mewtwo can safely knock you offstage from range without ever having to risk getting hit by LB cross slash.

Mewtwo can punish cross slash and climhazzard on hit by floating out of it but needs pretty fast reaction times.

Cons
Clouds fair can challenge mewtwos fair and win and is extra safe on block due to Mewtwos low traction.

If Mewtwo is on the ledge and you have limit break, Mewtwos rather bad ledge options can be hard punished on reaction.

Clouds dash attack and dtilt can force his way throughs Mewtwos defenses, possibly easier than anyone else in the game.

Fsmash can kill particularly early on Mewtwo who is weakest to horizontal KO moves.

Mewtwo basically loses his juggle ability vs cloud which is quite good in the new patch but it still cant contend with clouds dair.

Watch Out For
As Mewtwo: Limit Break cross slash, easily the biggest threat. When both characters are in KO %'s, Mewtwo has a lot of safe KO options but LB cross slash can punish even his safest moves if hes not careful.
As Cloud: Don't land on the ledge, Shadowball will beat anything you try except a perfectly spaced fair but thats a risk hardly worth taking.

Good Stages FD/Omega

Bad Stages BF/Dreamland

Rating I feel that Mewtwo simply has too many options to end clouds stock safely and when at high %'s or when Limit break is charged, shield camping is quite effective vs cloud. The likelihood of Mewtwo getting a low % kill offstage is far greater than the likelihood of Cloud getting an early kill in any other method. Mewtwos combos all work on cloud while Mewtwo is too light to fall for any of clouds. A cloud that is patient and camps for limit break will put a lot of pressure on mewtwo who is normally a high-risk, high-reward character. LB Cross slash is just that good of a move that it can seriously scare a Mewtwo into being aggressive or even just go for a grab. Cloud can space Mewtwo out easily with fair but if Mewtwo has a full charge shadow ball ready, jumping in neutral is super risky as clouds landings are possibly the easiest to camp in the game.

Slight advantage for Mewtwo. Cloud should absolutely not rely on early % kills vs Mewtwo because he just doesnt have the safety to pull them off like other top tiers do and Mewtwo can punish too hard. Cloud needs to watch his landings and dont waste LB, having it ready is a great threat.

Buckstrom · Dec 29, 2015

Mewtwo might benefit a lot from floating around but if we aim right we can kill him at higher percents with an LB Climhazzard which has become one of my most favorite limit break janks ever

Frame 7 with a bit of invincibility makes it an even faster kill move if Cloud can find an opening, though unless there are platforms a punishment is inbound if you whiff or get blocked.

ぱみゅ · Dec 29, 2015

Hanku Hirru said:
While I'm glad to see that there's a match up thread, this is really disorganized and we shouldn't be covering characters on a flavor of the day basis. There should be sub threads (or at least some consistent means of discussing match ups) with week-long discussions dedicated to a specific match up. It'll allow for the specific match up to get its time to shine before it stales and once it does slow down, the community can move onto the next discussion.

There is always room for improvement, we can try to see if implementing different things is beneficial or we just keep posting like this and try to fit it into the OP.
Whatever the case, as of now I merged your thread with this one because you provided amazing explanations on how to post about a matchup discussion.
:196:

Hanku Hirru · Dec 29, 2015

ぱみゅう said:
There is always room for improvement, we can try to see if implementing different things is beneficial or we just keep posting like this and try to fit it into the OP.
Whatever the case, as of now I merged your thread with this one because you provided amazing explanations on how to post about a matchup discussion.

Thank you. I'll be posting a table as soon as I can he it made. I won't step on any toes, by I'll do my best to try and keep the thread as organized as possible.

Haze~ · Dec 29, 2015

So i just learned Charizard can just throw you offstage and neutral b you with or without limi(it will hit limit too) and then fsmash you or whatever, don't get grabbed whatever you do cause if you do there's a 50 % chance you'll die when you are up against a good gimping character. Specifically Charizards flamethrower has very little endlag so he can react with a punish after interrupting your up b very easy which is why he is so dangerous and which is why vs bowser who has more endlag we can grab the ledge most of the time after being interupted with flamethrower from him. But this dragon man ugh, he was one of the best players i've played online tho.

Kalierdarke · Jan 4, 2016

vs

As someone who mains both but prefers

, I hate to say it but I'm pretty sure cloud has a +2 or even +3 in the MU

On stage, Cloud has better reach than everything puff has, and puff can't rest "counter" anything cloud has(to my knowledge) except maybe down tilt. His aerials are vastly better than puffs, which puts puff in a bad position for approach and combos. To top it off, Cloud can KO puff at low %s, so even if he ends up getting hit more, a couple good hits and it's all moot. Add to that the few attacks with good shield damage and puff can't afford to shield often, so that leaves mostly dodges/rolls.

Add to that the fact cloud basically forces puff to approach, via Blade Beam or just straight up charging limit. Cloud with charged limit is one of the scariest things to face as puff, everything but LB Blade Beam is a massive threat (not that LB Blade Beam isn't nasty enough on its own, just easier to survive/avoid). Cloud also has better speed almost all around.

The only real things puff has to her advantage in the MU is being one of the better characters in the game at gimping. Cloud's aerials still can beat out puffs if you aren't baited, but using them when recovering low can still cause you to lose a stock due to their endlag. vs puff, recovering high is often the better option, as you get more options to protect yourself against her.

As long as you can avoid letting her throw you off stage she shouldn't be much of a threat.

::edit:: also, try not to let puff take you to Halberd or Kongo Jungle 64 if they're legal where you play. You still have the advantage, but it's lessened a bit. FD and Smashville are very good options to pick VS puff

-m0 · Jan 5, 2016

Kuraudo said:
We have the ability to make them stop fighting as a zoner. That's the beauty of Cloud. A lot of Cloud's moves have the ability to stuff Mega Man & Toon Link's projectiles (most of them at least) if you're not shielding them. Also? One very important thing about fighting projectile zoners? Is this,

Cloud needs to play defensive. Make them sweat when you begin to build your Limit gauge so that the second they start to come closer and quit zoning you? You overtake them with your superior neutral control. The biggest mistake that you can make is getting too aggressive with Cloud. You should be charging to unleash your Limit Breaks on so that it forces a more favourable/damaging/close-quarters combat situation. It's not the same amount of power as Little Mac's KO Punch, but Cloud being able to make people fear his early kill power and the impulse to try and STOP him from building it up is something we can use to our advantage.

To really mess with Mega Man and Toon Link as well? Learn to z-catch their Metal Blades and Bombs. For Mega Man? That's scary because now he's lost his best zoning tool. Crash Bomber can be shielded, leaf shield as well, Charge Shot is predictable and slow to zone with, and the best thing he's got going for him now is Mega Buster shots but he has to get closer for those too. He throws one of those out when you have Limit Break? He's eating Blade Beam or you're shielding through them before using Cross Slash. You take away his Metal Blade and start holding onto it while building your gauge, you control the on-stage game.

As for Toon Link, it's a little harder because you can't keep his bomb forever for obvious reasons. But similar rules apply like I said before. Play defensive, camp, build your Limit Break, make him come closer because eventually he's gonna need to try and net the kill either on-stage or off-stage. Just so happens that you're WAY stronger with the on-stage killing options.

I think this is great info, but I want to address a few things on MM. The only way you're going to be able to Blade Beam/CS Mega after he shoots a CB/MB/LS is if he uses them at midrange and shoots them straight at you, which he shouldn't be doing (even if midrange is where Mega wants to be usually). MB can be used through a virtually lagless item throw, and it can better that way as a bonus, even linking into a grab (though not the infamous diagonal metal blade to utilt). It can also be zdropped at close range to use aerials and create shield pressure. LS, on the other hand, is almost never used as a projectile except at the max of its very long range. I believe it can be used to force shields into a grab, which in turn adds more damage with the leaves. I believe @ChopperDave is sort of the Leaf Shield aficionado around these parts. As far as CB goes, I believe it's used as a long-range spacing tool to again, force/bait shields/unsafe actions so Mega can punish.

Haze~ · Jan 5, 2016

Fair straight up beats fully charged shadowball and chargeshot which is really cool imo, use it when they want to cover your landing with it and you're 100% certain you'll time it

Kuraudo · Jan 6, 2016

How do people feel about Roy vs. Cloud? It's not a bad match-up or anything to me, but Roy can get in so easily on Cloud and has superior frame data as well. It's also pretty hard to edgeguard him so I need to rely on kills on-stage. But once I'm offstage against Roy (granted it's like this against most characters I imagine), Cloud is toast.

Ffamran · Jan 6, 2016

"Captain? I'm the Captain."

"But Falco, you're just the ace pilot of Star Fox. You didn't even finish your study in the Cornerian Academy; you dropped out."

"..."

The Falco boards have started their ongoing matchup discussion on the legendary mercenary and ex-SOLDIER, Cloud Strife. As characters are developed over time, MU discussions shouldn't be limited, so, drop in whenever if you found new things about the MU: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...ece-of-cake-ill-make-first-in-no-time.427601/.

If you want to spar against Falco players or just have fun, head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/, and let the battles... BEGIN!

CoveredNMoney · Jan 6, 2016

Who is considered to be a bad MU for cloud?

DJ Casca · Jan 7, 2016

CoveredNMoney said:
Who is considered to be a bad MU for cloud?

If you go by the word of my friend

is great counter to Cloud (Kappa)

But in all seriousness,

,

, and

I could see giving him the hardest time.

: Can gimp people very easily and benefits from defensive play just as much as Cloud does

: While blade beam can trade with paralyzer consistently, her combo game is mix-ups are something to be feared

: A smart Ryu will no problem in this match-up, as Cloud's size and fall speed make him perfect combo food.

Hanku Hirru · Jan 7, 2016

Okay, so how about we cover Cloud vs top tier match ups for a bit? We're jumping around a lot and it makes it kinda hard to compile data.

So, we could discuss Sheik if anyone is interested in adding their insight?

Rucent · Jan 7, 2016

The Sonic Match Up Thread is currently discussing Sonic vs Cloud! We would love it if you gave us your input on the match up!

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...0-31-cloud-lucas.390575/page-12#post-20705178

Thank you! :D

Large Dad · Jan 8, 2016

V.S

This one for Cloud is rather hard. Here's why:

Pros For Cloud:

+Against offstage, Cloud can fairly well spike Villager's Up Recovery with a simple D-Air or F-Air
+Villager is a rather light character so Cloud's punishments means good knockback against Villager.
+Villager's Side B can rather be avoided and punished by a jump and N-Air
+ Villagers D-air or N-air can't defend well of Clouds Up-Air

Cons For Cloud:

-Cloud only has one recovery option: Up. All villager needs to do is camp near a ledge and once you recover, he could easily drop a bowling ball on your head and could kill you around near 50-60%.
-If that 1 second of exposure before you grab the ledge from your recovery is still not there, and if Villager cuts down that tree, prepare for punishment.
-Villager could cancel Cloud's slow projectile with Side B.
-Villager's F-air/B-air is hard for to approach. Not to mention it's a good for gimping Cloud offstage
-Against a Villager, Cloud will most likely need to be the one who approaches, Since Villagers defensive options are good. Even still, it's bad to rush a villager down.
-If you charge up your Limit Break Blade Beam and throw it at him, Villager players just need to tap the B button and now he has your Limit Break Blade Beam. (I don't know how long he can hold it though.)
-Villagers grab could reach about the same as most of Clouds attacks. (But it is still slow)

Anyways, this is all I can think of for now. If you can help me out of this (or if there is something I got wrong) don't be afraid to reply. (Just to keep in note, this is the first time I've done this.)

Shotgun B · Jan 10, 2016

I'm still a little confused. Are we (A) going to discuss all the matchups here, or are we (B) going to make matchup threads?

If A, which character are we going to discuss first?
If B, I think this is our Sheik matchup thread (should be linked in OP): http://smashboards.com/threads/the-cloud-vs-sheik-matchup.426218/

I personally think B would be a lot easier to organize and collect data from.
EDIT: It says the OP hasn't been on since December 22, so we might need a Mod's help in order to get this thing going.

Kalierdarke · Jan 10, 2016

Large Dad said:
V.S
This one for Cloud is rather hard. Here's why:

Cons For Cloud:

-Cloud only has one recovery option: Up. All villager needs to do is camp near a ledge and once you recover, he could easily drop a bowling ball on your head and could kill you around near 50-60%.

Actually, that would be the only recovery option he -always- has. If he's knocked high enough into the air compared to his horizontal, he has the option of recovering down as well(climhazzard downslash ledgesnaps if above stage). Still not safe against villager, but a lot safer than recovering up. And villager still easily has the advantage.

Nu~ · Jan 10, 2016

Vs

Now that I've seen both sides of the matchup, it's about time I contribute.

+++
Cloud's Nair is a nightmare for pacman players. It beats every fruit, hydrant toss, and aerial that pacman has. The fact that it comes out so slowly is the best part for cloud. Use it liberally but space it well. PacMan's OoS game is weak to spaced attacks. Disjoints in general are a big weakness to pacman and cloud has a moveset full of them. Hell, both char's jabs come out on the exact same frame so cloud ties in the boxing war while simultaneously winning the mid range and footsies.

Limit charging forces pacman to go on the offensive. While pacman should already be trying to put the offensive pressure on you, it's much harder if he doesn't have a fruit in the hand. Cloud is fast enough to get to him before he can catch a fruit, making it far more difficult for him to get his tools together. Also, the hydrant is launched by one Bair. However, I would suggest that you avoid the hydrant all together since it's main use is for diversion.

Cloud kills pacman super early. While he can be incredibly evasive if he wants to, cloud has more than enough mobility to keep up with him. What sucks for pac is that he relies on fruit to earn his KOs while cloud knocks him out far before he can rely on his rather inconsistent options.

Hydrant and fruit traps on the ledge don't matter to cloud because he can drop from the ledge and Nair their hitboxes away. Still watch out for trampoline traps however. It forces cloud to jump making it easy for him to punish. Either sit on the ledge and wait to punish his wall spike option, or wait for his Bair/side B/whatever read and then get up.

Juggling him is easy since cloud's Uair knocks his hydrant back up.

If you take his fruit, he struggles hard. It's almost kind of sad. Cloud can z drop -> Nair to keep him at bay and limit camp while he tries to get in.

---

Pacman has his way with cloud offstage. One orange spells out death unfortunately. You especially want to watch out for a wall bounced orange as those are harder to see coming without matchup experience. His fair drags cloud down offstage since he has no combo breaking moves, and pac can stay airborne for much longer than cloud before having to recover. I suggest to try throwing out nairs when he comes near to offput his gimp attempts.

Cloud is combo food for pacman once he gets going. Uair chains are not uncommon for pacman and galaxian confirms are devastating. Always watch out for galaxians and try to stop their hitboxes before they touch you.

Fruit block LB blade beam. Since every fruit has a hurtbox, they take the first hit and keep on going. This is important to take note of because if throws a key at you when you throw a LB blade beam at him, he will win every time.

Pellet shielding stops long range blade beam spacing. He will heal 2% for every blade beam you throw out.

All in all, I believe that cloud wins this matchup. 60:40
Cloud puts a stop to Pac-Man's General gameplan pretty well. Pac has some things over cloud however and can royally screw him over if he actually does get going, but even then, cloud always has an answer.

HFlash · Jan 10, 2016

Kuraudo said:
Roy can get in so easily on Cloud and has superior frame data as well.

Ummm what?

Frame data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=127531413

Frame data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=1944325963

Cloud has vastly superior frame data. It's not even funny.

As for the discussion thread, I recommend making one central one and then talking about one character at a time. It's what the more successful MU threads have done.

Kuraudo · Jan 10, 2016

HFlash said:
Ummm what?

Frame data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=127531413

Frame data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=1944325963

Cloud has vastly superior frame data. It's not even funny.

As for the discussion thread, I recommend making one central one and then talking about one character at a time. It's what the more successful MU threads have done.

Sorry for jumping the gun so brashly earlier. The raw strength behind Roy's quick hits is probably what gave me that false idea. I just gotta learn how to utilize the stage and my tools in the match-up better.

Large Dad · Jan 11, 2016

Kalierdarke said:
Actually, that would be the only recovery option he -always- has. If he's knocked high enough into the air compared to his horizontal, he has the option of recovering down as well(climhazzard downslash ledgesnaps if above stage). Still not safe against villager, but a lot safer than recovering up. And villager still easily has the advantage.

Ah, I was meaning when he was recovering up but still, good contribution.

Meta Let the Battles Begin! - Cloud Matchup Thread

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Bringing the Propane

❤ ~

Smash Cadet

Smash Cadet

Futile. Futile! FUTILE!

You have the strength to overcome your destiny!

Smash Cadet

Futile. Futile! FUTILE!

Smash Ace

Futile. Futile! FUTILE!

4Aerith

Smash Master

You have the strength to overcome your destiny!

Smash Master

Futile. Futile! FUTILE!

Bringing the Propane

Smash Master

Smash Hater

Futile. Futile! FUTILE!

❤ ~

Bringing the Propane

Smash Journeyman

Smash Journeyman

Smash Ace

Smash Journeyman

4Aerith

The Smooth Devil Mod

Smash Cadet

Smash Cadet

Bringing the Propane

Only strive for first place.

Smash Cadet

Smash Rookie

Smash Journeyman

Smash Dreamer

Future Physician and Sm4sher

4Aerith

Smash Cadet

Information

Network