Ledge Snap Vulnerability - Edge Guarding Tech Video

[Davis-Lightheart]

This was posted into the character impressions thread, but I felt it warranted it's own discussion to understand who is affected by this the most and what this means for the future.

I feel like I've seen this applied to tournaments though, so I think on a subconscious level this has been being worked at.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I also posted this in the mechanics thread. It seems to be making the rounds pretty well at this point.

I feel like I've seen this applied to tournaments though, so I think on a subconscious level this has been being worked at.

I think it's more likely that people are just trying to hit their opponent out of their recovery just before they grab the ledge. (Since the ledge is an obvious target, sweetspotting and all.) If the hitbox lingers for any real length of time then it would be almost certain to hit during this vulnerability window.

What would really be interesting to see is if people tried this against teleport recoveries like Zelda before this became known.

 

[Zylach]

I can verify that this has been known for Zelda's recovery for a long time now. I didn't know it worked on all recoveries though.

 

[ATH_]

This is actually really useful then, this'll help a ton!

 

[David Viran]

Does this happen for tethers to.

 

[ATH_]

Does this happen for tethers to.

That...that's a great question. I imagine it would, but idk? Does hanging count as being on the ledge?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Does this happen for tethers to.

I'd imagine yes, but tether recoveries can vary the time they snap to the ledge and try to mindgame the edge guarder. The risk being... if you wait on the end of your tether too long, they'll just come to you instead of you going to them. So it's still risky.

 

[LancerStaff]

Interesting... Seems to me that it'll only be useful against warping recoverys though. It's a pretty big knock against Shiek, but also Zelda and Palutena.

 

[DanGR]

Are the characters' hurtboxes during the ledge grab (just before invincibility) the same as when you're grabbing it idly afterwards?

 

[icraq]

Are the characters' hurtboxes during the ledge grab (just before invincibility) the same as when you're grabbing it idly afterwards?

I don't think so, I think it's lower or further away. Even at 1/4 time I could never get a hit to land that would've worked if they were just idly hanging on.

 

[Gawain]

Definitely interesting. I bet it has something to do with the "magnetic" effect on the ledges. Or maybe it's intentional, who knows. Seems like some characters will benefit a lot from this though. Almost seems like a guaranteed neutral b for Ike on every character if they try to recover low.

 

[Mindles]

i suppose this could work for fox's dsmash

 

[Asdioh]

i suppose this could work for fox's dsmash

It would work for a lot of dsmashes, but if this is true:

I don't think so, I think it's lower or further away. Even at 1/4 time I could never get a hit to land that would've worked if they were just idly hanging on.

Then it won't. Definitely needs more testing, preferably frame-by-frame if possible.

 

[MrEh]

Almost seems like a guaranteed neutral b for Ike on every character if they try to recover low.

Depends on the character. Nearly every character in the game has the luxury of delaying their recoveries somewhat, meaning it's actually quite difficult to Eruption people for free. We tested this quite a bit. I was the non-Sheik in most of the video's examples.

It just comes down to hitting your opponent on that frame where they can be hit. Against telegraphed slow recoveries like Sheik, it's basically guaranteed if Sheik gets knocked far offstage and has to snap or die. Against someone like MK, it's basically impossible because of the huge amount of ways he can delay his recovery timing.

 

[Gawain]

Depends on the character. Nearly every character in the game has the luxury of delaying their recoveries somewhat, meaning it's actually quite difficult to Eruption people for free. We tested this quite a bit. I was the non-Sheik in most of the video's examples.

It just comes down to hitting your opponent on that frame where they can be hit. Against telegraphed slow recoveries like Sheik, it's basically guaranteed if Sheik gets knocked far offstage and has to snap or die. Against someone like MK, it's basically impossible because of the huge amount of ways he can delay his recovery timing.

I see. But theoretically if you were frame perfect 100 percent of the time, you could hit them 100 percent of the time with eruption in these scenarios right? Or what I am saying is that every character has this vulnerability and any attack that hits below the ledge (and has super armor) can hit them.

 

[san.]

Nope, not if the recovery is faster than the release of eruption. Bair/dair is probably easier sometimes since you can position yourself. It's good if you can force a predictable upB recovery for hard punishes or if you have longlasting hitboxes offstage such as drill dairs.

 

[MrEh]

^This

If you don't have enough time to react and release the Eruption in response to seeing an UpB, it's not practical.

Is it possible? Yes. Practical? No.

 

[Gawain]

Nope, not if the recovery is faster than the release of eruption. Bair/dair is probably easier sometimes since you can position yourself. It's good if you can force a predictable upB recovery for hard punishes or if you have longlasting hitboxes offstage such as drill dairs.

Ah I see now what you're saying. Still interesting to note, and I feel like this might seriously hurt Shieks matchups against some characters.

 

[MrEh]

We'll have to wait and see on that one.

Could this affect matchups? Possibly. The potential is certainly there. It just depends if players actually figure this out and make it a practical thing versus just a proof of concept kind of deal. It's hard to say until people actually try it and experiment in actual matches.

 

[Swoops]

Any more thoughts or research on this? I feel like I'm starting to see this happen at tournaments more.

It looked like on the Spooky stream last night there were quite a few timed dtilt/dairs to hit the ledge snap. It seems like this will be absolutely useful in practice with heavily active hit boxes. Kind of like meaty attacks in traditional 2D games.

 

[Lavani]

In hindsight, this probably should've been more immediately obvious considering Gordos lodged in the ledge completely deny ledgegrabs.

Are the characters' hurtboxes during the ledge grab (just before invincibility) the same as when you're grabbing it idly afterwards?

Late reply, but it doesn't seem so. When I was testing this with CPU Palutena I had to space attacks a fair distance off the ledge to catch her before the ledge snap, like so:

Though, I think the angle they approach the ledge from plays a part too. I could consistently hit Pit with Dedede's dash attack if he recovered from directly below the ledge, but if he ledgesnapped from under the stage I whiffed every time.