Ledge occupancy during ledge rolls

[The_NZA]

For those who don't know, in melee when you rolled onto the stage, the game registered as if you were holding on to the edge until the moment you pretty much stand up. It seemed odd and it made it pretty easy or forgiving to keep a ledge occupied. In PM, you only occupy the ledge as long as your character is on it. This means when you roll onto the stage, you'll only be occupying the ledge for most characters for the first set of frames. Once you begin rolling away from the ledge, anyone can grab it.

I know it looked weird, and in a way it made edge hogging very easy. But the thing is, PM already has much better recoveries all in all compared to melee (with more unique recovery archetypes that add a new difficulty to edgeguarding). Meanwhile, edge guarders lost something pretty important: the ability to edge hog, and roll onto the stage to punish the enemy who was forced to recover onto the stage. Is there a demand to see the melee ledge roll return?

 

[Xanthus]

Not from me. I much prefer this new more intuitive one.

 

[Soft Serve]

Rolls still occupy the ledge while you are rolling, its just for a shorter duration. I beleive melee's value was like 24 frames and PM is 16 frames.

someone correct me on that if I'm wrong

Edit: yeah, those numbers came out of my ass.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Those numbers aren't accurate. It depends on the length of the animation, in both games, which changes based on the character and whether or not they are over 100%

 

[Xinc]

I've definitely witnessed some "invisible" ledge occupancy when a guy rolls off a ledge and the other guy can't recover onto the ledge.

 

[Sai_]

Speaking of ledge occupancy, I've noticed that a player can hang onto a ledge and someone with tethering ability such as Link or Samus can hang onto the same ledge simultaneously. Is this a bug or some weird feature?

 

[SpiderMad]

Those numbers aren't accurate. It depends on the length of the animation, in both games, which changes based on the character and whether or not they are over 100%

Would a good estimate be everyone's was cut in half?

Xinc and Sai those both are intended

 

[Kally Wally]

Speaking of ledge occupancy, I've noticed that a player can hang onto a ledge and someone with tethering ability such as Link or Samus can hang onto the same ledge simultaneously. Is this a bug or some weird feature?

It's intentional. Melee-style tethers couldn't be implemented, so tethers just grab the ledge regardless of who's on it. Otherwise, tethers would be beyond useless, like they were in Brawl.

They're very punishable if they reel in while you're on the ledge, though, so it's not quite a free recovery.

 

[standardtoaster]

Rolls still occupy the ledge while you are rolling, its just for a shorter duration. I beleive melee's value was like 24 frames and PM is 16 frames.

someone correct me on that if I'm wrong

in melee you occupied the ledge for the entire duration of the animation

 

[The_NZA]

People are clarifying the rules but aren't clarifying their preferences. What do you all prefer? Because I think I would prefer for edge roll occupancy to be reverted to their easier melee versions so it is more viable to cover an edge and on stage option in this game.

 

[batistabus]

I personally prefer how it was in Melee.

 

[Phantasmagorical]

I'd still be willing to see it tried out, if it hasn't already been tried and found to be inferior to the current system. I do get the feeling, though, that while Melee ledge roll occupancy would help some at edgeguarding the good recoveries in this game, I think it'd help more at edgeguarding the bad ones, which would basically just increase the gap between the good and bad recoveries. Think Marth or Roy: currently in PM it's slightly more difficult to edgeguard them because you have to better predict when they'll use their up-b because you have a smaller window of ledge occupancy and because of how they hang at the end of their up-b. If you had a larger amount of occupancy time, they'd die much easier than they already do. Meanwhile someone with a good recovery like Pit, Samus, or MK still has a bunch of mixups they can do to recover on the stage, on the ledge, on platforms, etc. Melee ledge rolls still only cover a few of their options, meanwhile for the characters who aren't graced with recoveries as flexible as theirs, Melee ledge rolls cover basically everything they can do.

 

[The_NZA]

I'd still be willing to see it tried out, if it hasn't already been tried and found to be inferior to the current system. I do get the feeling, though, that while Melee ledge roll occupancy would help some at edgeguarding the good recoveries in this game, I think it'd help more at edgeguarding the bad ones, which would basically just increase the gap between the good and bad recoveries. Think Marth or Roy: currently in PM it's slightly more difficult to edgeguard them because you have to better predict when they'll use their up-b because you have a smaller window of ledge occupancy and because of how they hang at the end of their up-b. If you had a larger amount of occupancy time, they'd die much easier than they already do. Meanwhile someone with a good recovery like Pit, Samus, or MK still has a bunch of mixups they can do to recover on the stage, on the ledge, on platforms, etc. Melee ledge rolls still only cover a few of their options, meanwhile for the characters who aren't graced with recoveries as flexible as theirs, Melee ledge rolls cover basically everything they can do.

I see what you're saying and I think it would be impossible for a ledge occupancy change to not disproportionately affect certain recoveries more than others, but think of how forcing someone to recover onto the stage would lead to better punishes. Afterally, many characters that are good at sweetspotting the ledge still have recovery time when they land on stage. Characters like Link, Lucario, Mario, Luigi, DDD, Pit, Wolf, Lucas would all become more punishable.

I think it would affect everyone and may affect people with worse recoveries more. But at even mid level play, its pretty easy to get to the edge fast enough to punish a cfalcon, marth, roy, ganondorf.