Ledge Grab Rule

[DMG]

By getting rid of the LGLs. We shouldn't have tried to solve the ledge problem as prematurely as we did, and especially with a solution that creates more problems than it attempts to solve.

The only downside to this is that inevitably, people are gonna get planked and look at us asking "Why in the name of God did you willingly let this happen?" Especially since we're at the point of already knowing it's clearly broken in theory. It would be different if we didn't genuinely know.

 

[WindMajor]

That's the thing though, we put a band-aid over the problem too quickly, and the band-aid (for the most part), stopped planking. However, the band-aid we used is so big that it covers areas that don't need to be covered. It limits other characters when we don't even know if they are broken on the ledge. Now we need to find out if we have to change the band-aid so that it only applies to Metaknight, or if we even need the band-aid in the first place.

If we didn't act so quickly, the community would've grown around PPlanking. People would've gotten planked, but that's good because then we would at least have proof that this technique isn't only broken in a theoretical sense. We would've had something to work with. Right now, the problem sounds like a band-aid could solve the problem, but we won't know for sure unless we see it (which we haven't just yet).

Are there any videos or records of people trying to straight-up plank for the entire 8 minutes (no scrooging, just planking) in a tournament, or at the very least, in a friendly?

 

[GimR]

I lost access rofl. PSI wasn't pleased with me, said I didn't contribute enough despite giving you guys ideas on what to test, etc. Did you guys dig further into projectiles like I suggested?

For that, yeah I already knew people like DK/Bowser have holes (most people assumed, for whatever reason, that you could snap the edge with DK/Bowser's Upb before your initial invincibility ran out, and it's not true the game will not allow you to do that ((Unless someone has found exceptions to that)))

You basically have 10 frames where you can't grab the ledge no matter what but if your character has invincibility in his or her up-B then you can grab the ledge during your invincibility making it harder to punish the recovery.

For example, DK still won't grab the ledge for 10 frames, but he'll be invincible the 3 frames before he grabs the ledge.(Frame 4-6 of his Up-B)

Also, since his arms are invincible during most of his aerial up-B, then you can position as far away from the edge as possible so your opponent would have to leave the stage to hit you


Perfect Planking

 

[Staco]

Food on low is a good idea, but it doesnt stop planking at a stock lead.
It also can mess you up at attacking, which makes it unpredictable and adds some random factor.
Its also bad for slow characters.

 

[AgentJGV]

A crazy Idea: make it just flat out illegal to time the clock out by planking or remove the timer all together and ban planking. Either way you're banning planking.

 

[WindMajor]

Getting a time-out win is completely legitimate.
Removing the timer will make tournies never end.

We can't ban planking because we can't define planking discretely, which means we can't enforce a ban on planking.


Better idea: Remove LGLs so someone can plank with MK all the way to 1st place, so we can ban Metaknight.

 

[AgentJGV]

Getting a time-out win is completely legitimate.
Removing the timer will make tournies never end.

We can't ban planking because we can't define planking discretely, which means we can't enforce a ban on planking.


Better idea: Remove LGLs so someone can plank with MK all the way to 1st place, so we can ban Metaknight.

the thing is, it takes away from the core gameplay which is, fighting. Timing someone out seems like a cop out and it isnt a good test of skill, which is basically what we all hope in a match.

Though planking is subjective, we could make the tourny host also a ref. when some one is planking, have him come over and check the situation. Honestly I dont see a problem with using a subjective rule. If anyones played HvZ (Humans vs Zombies), the know that THAT game uses a lot of subjective rules and works fine as long as no one's a D-bag.

Or ya know ur last suggestion works fine too lol. Whatever makes the game fair again. Cuz its just not right.

 

[DMG]

the thing is, it takes away from the core gameplay which is, fighting. Timing someone out seems like a cop out and it isnt a good test of skill, which is basically what we all hope in a match.

Though planking is subjective, we could make the tourny host also a ref. when some one is planking, have him come over and check the situation. Honestly I dont see a problem with using a subjective rule. If anyones played HvZ (Humans vs Zombies), the know that THAT game uses a lot of subjective rules and works fine as long as no one's a D-bag.

Or ya know ur last suggestion works fine too lol. Whatever makes the game fair again. Cuz its just not right.

I'm not playing with hundreds or thousands of Dollars on the line if I know there's the small chance of said D-Bag being there. The instant you ask a TO to be completely unbiased and give him the power to subjectively decide who wins in a match where his criteria can vary from Game to Game or Set to Set... That spells trouble.

 

[AgentJGV]

its more of a thing of give the TO the power and people will stop doing it cuz they dont want to take a chance.

also i think theres some confusion of what i was saying. I'm saying the TO should only have the power to say, "Ur planking, game over, other dude wins." and if no ones planking then the game continues.

 

[DMG]

its more of a thing of give the TO the power and people will stop doing it cuz they dont want to take a chance.

also i think theres some confusion of what i was saying. I'm saying the TO should only have the power to say, "Ur planking, game over, other dude wins." and if no ones planking then the game continues.

Then it comes down to what one person decides is planking. Or what is "too much" planking.

I have a local TO who hosts events. Doesn't play much regular Brawl anymore. He's not up to date with the current metagame or planking or scrooging, etc. How is he going to be able to make a fair judgment call about something he may not fully understand? I mean, there are even probably reputable TO's of National events who have a preconceived notion of what planking/too much planking is, especially if it's represented by inaccuracies or gaps in knowledge.

The other main problem with leaving it all up to the TO is that people want to know ahead of time what the rules are, in a concrete manner. People want to know "Ok 3 stock 8 minutes, Dedede Infinites Illegal, these stages legal, etc". People do not want "Come on down to the venue and the TO will decide on the spot what to do." Even if the TO decides to use the same exact rules he would have pre announced, people want to know up front what is acceptable and what is not. When it comes to Planking, I think we should tell people up front what to expect.

Will there be a LGL? If so, what number? Is this for the entire cast or MK only? Any difference for teams? If you address all of that beforehand, people can go "Oh hey, this is what I can expect. Alright." Instead, if you just say "TO discretion shall be used in situations deemed appropriate", that doesn't really tell someone what is acceptable or not. If I can get DQ'd on a whim by the TO, and Im not informed of what his criteria is beforehand, what confidence am I supposed to have that whatever decisions made are fair or that his criteria is sensible? Nobody wants to go into a match unsure of whether they can lose a match for grabbing the edge 20 times or still win after grabbing it 60 times, or whether characters outside MK are to be judged, etc

Past that, you could have problems enforcing TO discretion early on with multiple matches going on at the same time.

 

[AgentJGV]

fair enough.

The thing is, if a TO doesn't know what planking is then they probly would never know the TO discretion rule. Also, no offense, but i thnk too that they shouldnt be hosting tournies if they dont know that either.

Like, not gunna lie, any top rated smasher or TO is gunna know what planking is, and u can deffinately tell when someone is doing it.

I just think that because we're trying to objectify a subjective thing, its just not working. Keepit subjective.

edit: forgot something. With the early matches, hopefully the community would reach a point where they would just accept planking as banned and TOs wouldnt have to deal with it.

 

[SuSa]

I still don't see a LGL worth placing into the game. Planking only seems to be a real issue as one character against the cast. You're also dictating exactly how you feel the game should be played at this point. Timing out by abusing ledge invincibility is NOT OK? I can't fathom as to why. Oh? The cast can't deal with this? Seems degenerate. It's only for one character? You can objectively rid of the character but choose to subjectively limit him?

Gee. This makes a lot of sense.

[PS: I'm not comparing other subjectivish, but has an easily identifiable objective criteria to this case]

I'm still anti-ban. I just find all these rules dancing around the issue funny... however I don't see MK as an issue, and likely never will until I start getting 2-3 stocked by every MK in my region. So far that **** ain't happening and I get them down to last stock, last hit. Totally winnable.. I just need to stop being hit first.

 

[AgentJGV]

You might think that planking is only an issue for one character but in reality it detracts from the whole game. Timing out wins for that matter are a problem too. Brawl is a FIGHTING game not a hityourenemyandrunaway game. It drags out games longer than they should and makes the skill cap lower. Your basically playing a 1 stock game which is not the type of game i want to play.

But hey maybe this is just my opinion.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Agent: Yeah, we've dealt with that problem before.

By turning on the timer, we've allowed timing out to be a legitimate form of winning the game. In fact, if you look a little closer, there's an entire mode where the entire goal is to time your opponent out with the lead. What's more, timing out is in every fighting game. Just, under a different name (Turtling). And it's completely acceptable, but very hard. Defensive (gay) play is not an issue whatsoever. And you think timing someone out is easy? Dude, you try it. Go to a high-level tournament and try to time a good player out. You will not succeed; turtling effectively is really ****ing hard.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You might think that planking is only an issue for one character but in reality it detracts from the whole game. Timing out wins for that matter are a problem too. Brawl is a FIGHTING game not a hityourenemyandrunaway game. It drags out games longer than they should and makes the skill cap lower. Your basically playing a 1 stock game which is not the type of game i want to play.

But hey maybe this is just my opinion.

Street fighter has timeouts.
So does tekken.
*shrugs*
Take it as you will.

 

[AgentJGV]

I never said I thought timing out was easy. It seems like its an incredibly hard thing to do. At the same time though, it still happens. take like smash DIing. its a hard thing to do for many new players. but experienced players it comes second nature. Well with practice timing out could become that for you. And planking just aids that. (Which to be honest is really dumb.)

Actually you said it yourself. Other fighters have timing out but its really hard to do in your favor. And you're not becoming invincible or unreachable like planking grants you. your enemy is still able to kill you. If you win by a time out then its your opponents fault that he didn't kill you fast enough. I know someones going to refute that by saying "well why do you kill your opponent in brawl?" The answer? herp derp planking.

 

[ShadowLink84]

THe only one who can make himself completely invincible, in theory, is Metaknight, no one else can do it.

Otherwise, its the same as complaining about fireballs when playing E. Honda in SF2

 

[Staco]

What does actually happen, when two players reach the LGLimit and the time runs out?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

IIRC, it then goes by who has the most... Which seems kinda stupid, especially if they're close. Little improvement: if one is up by a solid factor (say, if you have 20 more LGs than your opponent, AND you've gone over the limit), then it comes into effect.

 

[Yikarur]

the normal winning procedure occurs (stock then percentages)

A lot of tournaments have "who has more ledgegrabs loses" but that is dumb.

 

[Staco]

What actually happens to the ledgegrab rule, if the match ends in a tie and a 1 stock match has to be replayed?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

the normal winning procedure occurs (stock then percentages)

A lot of tournaments have "who has more ledgegrabs loses" but that is dumb.

Oh right. My bad.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I read through most of the pages and no one gave me a real reason on why this rule set would not work.

 

[Ghostbone]

I read through most of the pages and no one gave me a real reason on why this rule set would not work.

All the reasons a normal Ledge Grab Limit is bad x100

 

[SaveMeJebus]

All the reasons a normal Ledge Grab Limit is bad x100

Everyone is ****ing stupid. They get pissed off if there is a LGL and they get pissed off if there isn't a LGL. Make up your ****ing minds already!!!!!!!!!!

We should make a poll to determine what the players want.

 

[WindMajor]

Nooo.

We should be trying to break ledge grabs to see if an LGL is even needed.

 

[Ghostbone]

Everyone is ****ing stupid. They get pissed off if there is a LGL and they get pissed off if there isn't a LGL. Make up your ****ing minds already!!!!!!!!!!

We should make a poll to determine what the players want.

I'm completely against an LGL just so you know.
If a character breaks the ledge, then either we ban that character, or ban all the stages with permanent ledges.

And no character besides MK even breaks the ledge in theory, and none in practice.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm completely against an LGL just so you know.
If a character breaks the ledge, then either we ban that character, or ban all the stages with permanent ledges.

And no character besides MK even breaks the ledge in theory, and none in practice.

We never gave any character a chance (not even MK) to prove that this tactic is broken or too powerful. The ledge basically forces players to take risks that can mean the difference between winning a match or losing the set.

 

[Ghostbone]

Exactly, you don't ban/limit things unless they're broken, planking hasn't been proven broken, so we shouldn't ban or limit it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Exactly, you don't ban/limit things unless they're broken, planking hasn't been proven broken, so we shouldn't ban or limit it.

Players (myself included) don't want to take the chance of losing 8$+ because someone didn't ban a tactic that has been proven (in theory) to be broken

 

[Ghostbone]

Then why go to a tourney with IC allowed?

Also, there have been plenty of tourneys with no LGL, and the tactic still hasn't been proven broken, what does that tell you?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Then why go to a tourney with IC allowed?

because I have never been to a tournament that has three or more Ice climbers in the top 10.

EDIT: It tells me that there wasn't enough money on the line to put my main at risk of getting banned which would cause me to lose more money in the long run (thinking like an MK pro)

 

[Ghostbone]

But they're completely broken in theory, just like MK's planking, what's the difference?

Point is, you don't ban things until they're proven broken, and if you think they're broken, go out and prove it. If you can't prove it, then it's not broken.

Other players can't complain, too bad they didn't use the broken tactic themselves first.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But they're completely broken in theory, just like MK's planking, what's the difference?

Point is, you don't ban things until they're proven broken, and if you think they're broken, go out and prove it. If you can't prove it, then it's not broken.

Other players can't complain, too bad they didn't use the broken tactic themselves first.

1. read the rest of the post above you
2. How can I prove this tactic is broken when there is a LGL not to mention the fact that I don't main MK.

 

[Ghostbone]

-sigh-

There shouldn't be a LGL in the first place.
It's a dumb arbitrary rule that has no reason to be there.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The fact that Plank got 3rd place at a national without perfect planking (no where near perfect planking in fact) is reason enough to have a ledge grab rule. how many more tournament results do you need? 303 attendants by the way

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=1357

 

[Ghostbone]

Umm...no it's not, especially when the tournament was over 2 years ago.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Umm...no it's not, especially when the tournament was over 2 years ago.

Keep in mind that he didn't even perfect plank.

 

[Ghostbone]

Your point?
He used a non-broken tactic to place well, what's wrong with that?
Gnes used bananas and placed 1st at Dallas, ban diddy's bananas?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Your point?
He used a non-broken tactic to place well, what's wrong with that?
Gnes used bananas and placed 1st at Dallas, ban diddy's bananas?

My point is that planking is powerful even when not done correctly