Least Favorite Character?

[Beasts]

Mine is Samus, I just don't think she is good.

 

[Gammelnorsk]

luigi

 

[Mr Bushido]

 

[NovaSmash]

i dont like fox

 

[T Brett]

 

[SheerMadness]

Sheik .

 

[Shears]

I hate green, red, and no hat pika. They're so unfashionable.

 

[Saltsizzle]

I previously used Kirby a bit just because I could win with him. Now I just find him boring and cheap.
(just my opinion)

This would also be interesting to see as a poll.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I previously used Kirby a bit just because I could win with him. Now I just find him boring and cheap.
(just my opinion)

lol i picked up kirby bc i thought he was really cheap and easy to win with

now I think he's really fun and is one of my favorite characters to play as

 

[Ceasar]

 

[Shears]

The difference is Kero finds winning fun while Saltsizzle finds something else, that I can't for the life of me figure out, fun.

 

[caneut]

Kirby because it take no skill and gives people false assessments of their skill level.

 

[clubbadubba]

kirby is the only flaw in the game

 

[KeroKeroppi]

if people spent as much time learning how to play against kirby as they did talking **** about kirby

he wouldn't be a problem

kirby isn't going anywhere and complaining isn't getting you any better

so **** off, kirby haters

 

[caneut]

if people spent as much time learning how to play against kirby as they did talking **** about kirby

he wouldn't be a problem

kirby isn't going anywhere and complaining isn't getting you any better

so **** off, kirby haters

easiest character with the most reward, its not that good people dont know how to beat kirby, its just you have to be considerably better, and not JUST better, than a kirby player to beat them.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

so then why isn't kirby considered the best character in the game?

if you think you have to be considerably better than a kirby player to beat them, then you're probably in the group of people that would be better off talking less **** and learning the match up more

 

[Shears]

I was playing a kid yesterday who I handle pretty easily, like 4 stocks most of the time with every character and just recently for the first time he started playing kirby and now the matches are somewhat competitive. His other characters are still getting 4 stocked, but his brand new noob kirby is getting 2/3. He just miraculously became so much more talented mentally by switching to kirby? Kirby just meets his mindset and playstyle although before he was introduced to bairs, utilts, and big kirby he was getting 4 stocked? No, its because a less talented person can beat a much more talented person with kirby due to how simple and effective kirby is. He knows it too. He is almost ashamed to use kirby because of it. If we were to quantify skill and say someone was an across the board 5 and someone else was an across the board 7. Then in theory the 7 should win an overwhelming majority of games assuming we didn't include kirby. Then we introduce kirby to the 5 and the 7 is stuck with the other 11, the 7 should still be able to win an overwhelming majority of games if kirby wasn't broken. But in reality, that 5 with the addition of kirby and not really knowing what to do will win games against a 7 because the options kirby has are very good and easy to perform without much tech skill, attention, practice, precision, or talent.

For anything less than S tier players, kirby is the best character in the game imo.

*I feel a tier list that is universal is hard to make. At the highest level of play I believe all characters are equal, but at the more manageable levels of play to even beginner levels of play, we see a lot of parity between characters and so on these levels I see kirby being god tier. Basically, in theory all characters are as good as each other if the person has the ability to play them flawlessly. But assuming they players are at an above average competitive playing level, kirby is the best character in the game.

 

[caneut]

so then why isn't kirby considered the best character in the game?

if you think you have to be considerably better than a kirby player to beat them, then you're probably in the group of people that would be better off talking less **** and learning the match up more

If you read my post with any thought you would see I never said he was the best. I said he was the easiest to be good with. You find you win more with kirby than any other character, so you use him. Do you believe you would have beat Z with any character besides kirby or pikachu? Wizzrobe? Both character are broken, and while pikachu requires more skill to take advantage of pikachus metagame, kirby requires the least amount of skill to take advantage of said characters metagame.

Like I said in my first post, kirby gives people false assessments of their skill. Yes you are very very good, multiple times better than me. You still think you are better than you truly are SOLELY on the fact that you win more with kirby .

 

[KeroKeroppi]

nobody's arguing that kirby isn't easy to use

but the difficulty a character is to play is not reflective of how well that character performs

ness is hard as **** to use and he still blows

a good kirby is not considerably better than any other good character

who cares if the kirby player got good with half the time / effort

my original post wasn't directed towards you, cane, it was more so directed at the idea that kirby is broken

which, admittedly, nobody was really saying at first so i probably shouldn't have even posted anything LOL

but now that it's been said, kirby and pikachu are NOT broken by any means

and again, you thinking that they are probably just means that you need more practice vs them

my skill level, your skill level, and the way i perform vs other players are completely irrelevant so i will not be addressing those points

 

[Sedda]

I love playing against Kirby because that cute pink ball exposes my poor spacing

 

[caneut]

Fox is by far the most broken character in the game. If you use him perfect you will always win, that's a fact. That's not saying TAS Fox is better than any other character because then we're breaking the game at that point in the metagame. But a perfect human player Fox is better than any perfect Kirby.

We're not perfect.

Fox is punishable with mistakes, and being the a top 3 character in terms of required button pressing obviously introduces a lot more human error. Is kirby that unforgiving? Besides having multiple more jumps than fox, how many times more is kirby less gimp-able that fox? Remember, 1 mistake with fox and you can be gimped EASY. 1 mistake with kirby and you can probably get a stock out of it anyway.

but the difficulty a character is to play is not reflective of how well that character performs

Again not what I said, and I prefer you read my posts without blindlessly going into another post with constant linebreaks. But to reply to this, Tier list /=/ Tiered difficulty of metagame

ness is hard as **** to use and he still blows

Low in tier list.

who cares if the kirby player got good with half the time / effort

The person that reads "Kirby because it take no skill and gives people false assessments of their skill level." and is bothered enough to reply several times.

my original post wasn't directed towards you, cane, it was more so directed at the idea that kirby is broken

While you did not reply to my post, I made one of the only posts about kirby, besides salt which his comment about kirby was not as harsh as mine. I'm pretty sure anyone will agree you we're replying to my post.

which, admittedly, nobody was really saying at first so i probably shouldn't have even posted anything LOL

Yet you did.

but now that it's been said, kirby and pikachu are NOT broken by any means

And your argument besides saying "people should learn how to beat a less skilled player using a broken character" (PARAPHRASED )?????????????????????????

my skill level, your skill level, and the way i perform vs other players are completely irrelevant so i will not be addressing those points

You are better than me.

I'd also like to end this so let me say this. If I was given a chance to play you I would because I'd much rather be playing smash than not. Yet if we were playing friendlies, and we both chose our mains, I would probably have to try really hard to even make it a fair match, with you being much better than me. So much effort is tiring and I stop playing smash faster than I would playing friendlies, not using so much effort, and exploring new options to learn the game a little bit more. This brings us back to "I would much rather be playing smash than not."

 

[Fireblaster]

Kirby has a pretty big weakness for a top tier in that a game that's based around securing death combos from a single hit, kirby doesn't really have many of those. Most of the other characters can do a lot of damage from a single hit and possibly even secure the death of that stock if they follow up on the combo correctly.

Kirby probably has the best neutral game in the game but it can be tricky for him to pull off death combos. To learn to do well against kirby you must get good at making sure each hit/combo counts. Otherwise, you're gonna spend your time going even/losing in the neutral game against kirby and thinking to yourself that he's a broken/cheap/noob character.

 

[WertQuadNine]

I know it's just 64, but it won't hurt

 

[caneut]

Kirby has a pretty big weakness for a top tier in that a game that's based around securing death combos from a single hit, kirby doesn't really have many of those. Most of the other characters can do a lot of damage from a single hit and possibly even secure the death of that stock if they follow up on the combo correctly.

Kirby probably has the best neutral game in the game but it can be tricky for him to pull off death combos. To learn to do well against kirby you must get good at making sure each hit/combo counts. Otherwise, you're gonna spend your time going even/losing in the neutral game against kirby and thinking to yourself that he's a broken/cheap/noob character.

You usually don't need a death combo when it's so easy just to gimp. That goes for some characters and not others.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

waaaat

it's not a fact that perfect fox is better than any other character

and my earlier lines were directed towards shears.. we're not the only two people on this conversation

also, you were like one of three people to even say anything about kirby, even if i was directing my posts at one of you (which i wasn't) that's still only a 1/3 chance that i was talking about you

you're looking at this whole thing way too personally

ignore me, you, wizzrobe, z or whoever else you mentioned idr

i agree that kirby is very easy to pick up

if two players play the game for x amount of time, and one of them is a kirby player, the kirby player will probably win most of the games, i think we both can agree on that

but that isn't because kirby is broken, it's because kirby is easy to use

with enough kirby experience the other player could definitely be a better player

he just has to learn the match up more

that's all I'm trying to say lol

again, my first post wasn't directed towards you, but if i misunderstood you in any of my other posts that were directed towards you, i apologize

i'm too lazy to do this anymore

all i've gotta say is that your harsh feelings towards kirby probably just mean that you're bad at the match up, kirby isn't so bad once you play him enough

you've just gotta train harder n0000000000000b

 

[caneut]

Endless linebreaks

Ignores the post yet again

Starts on your side

Goes back to his point with no actual argument

"yo bro i def wasnt talkin bout u bro"

"but u just gotta learn the matchup"



(in that order)

 

[Fireblaster]

You usually don't need a death combo when it's so easy just to gimp. That goes for some characters and not others.

Same goes for kirby. Just throw him off and one or two solid reads on his recovery and you don't even need to apply that much damage or a death combo to kill him.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

"u just gotta learn the match up" is the only argument necessary

you can apply that to any situation in this game and it's the right answer lol

how do i hook up online

u just gotta learn the match up

idk why you can't see that cane god you suck so bad

 

[caneut]

"u just gotta learn the match up" is the only argument necessary

you can apply that to any situation in this game and it's the right answer lol

how do i hook up online

u just gotta learn the match up

idk why you can't see that cane god you suck so bad

Again you're pointing out your better than me, didn't I already say that?

I made an argument for why it's more than just a matchup, and why kirby is a handicap. You keep shouting "matchup."

Same goes for kirby. Just throw him off and one or two solid reads on his recovery and you don't even need to apply that much damage or a death combo to kill him.

You CAN but that goes back to my human error. "You just need a grab and one OR two SOLID reads."

How hard is *You just need a grab and one OR two SOLID reads.* for pikachu?
How hard is **You just need a grab and one OR two SOLID reads.* for fox or mario?

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I made an argument for why it's more than just a matchup, and why kirby is a handicap. You keep shouting "matchup."

it's more like the call of a baby t rex letting his papa t rex know that he's about to get ****ed up by a gang of velociraptors

kind of like "MATCH UP MATCH UP WAAAAAAH MATCH UP MATCH UP"

obviously not the same situation but you can imagine the sound can't you?

MATCH UP MATCH UP MATCH UP MATCH UP

 

[Fireblaster]

You CAN but that goes back to my human error. "You just need a grab and one OR two SOLID reads."

How hard is *You just need a grab and one OR two SOLID reads.* for pikachu?
How hard is **You just need a grab and one OR two SOLID reads.* for fox or mario?

I don't understand your point

 

[Shears]

if two players play the game for x amount of time, and one of them is a kirby player, the kirby player will probably win most of the games, i think we both can agree on that

but that isn't because kirby is broken, it's because kirby is easy to use

with enough kirby experience the other player could definitely be a better player

That is colloquially what broken is.

"Two players, A and B, of equal skill Y play the game for an equal amount of time X but A plays kirby and B plays anyone else, A will win the majority of matches." Thats basically what you agreed to.

"Player B can beat A if he plays for X+Z amount of time." Thats basically what your counter argument to kirby being broken is.

X + Z != X

Argue how thats fair? I'm equally as talented as you at a job. We both work 40 hours. You get paid more because you accomplished more tasks using a tool that wasn't available to me. I have to work 50 hours to get the same tasks done. Does that seem fair? No. So I get my hands on that tool, get as many tasks done in 40 hours and make as much as you. Then its fair.

Using your own words, your logic leads to everyone either playing kirby or having to play more than someone else to be better than them. Caneuts and my points are now proven, a higher skilled player shouldn't have to work harder to beat a lesser skilled player.

Thanks for agreeing. Cashbah mother****ers.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

That is colloquially what broken is.

"Two players, A and B, of equal skill Y play the game for an equal amount of time X but A plays kirby and B plays anyone else, A will win the majority of matches." Thats basically what you agreed to.

"Player B can beat A if he plays for X+Z amount of time." Thats basically what your counter argument to kirby being broken is.

X + Z != X

Argue how thats fair? I'm equally as talented as you at a job. We both work 40 hours. You get paid more because you accomplished more tasks using a tool that wasn't available to me. I have to work 50 hours to get the same tasks done. Does that seem fair? No. So I get my hands on that tool, get as many tasks done in 40 hours and make as much as you. Then its fair.

Using your own words, your logic leads to everyone either playing kirby or having to play more than someone else to be better than them. Caneuts and my points are now proven, a higher skilled player shouldn't have to work harder to beat a lesser skilled player.

Thanks for agreeing. Cashbah mother****ers.

MATCH UP MATCH UP

 

[Shears]

So if its all about MATCH UP MATCH UPs then in this scenario "Two players, A and B, of equal skill Y play the game for an equal amount of time X but A plays kirby and B plays anyone else, A will win the majority of matches." the character player B plays can be represented by C. Since C can be anyone else other than kirby, and kirby is winning then kirby has a matchup advantage against every other character. Game is broken, everyone plays kirby. You're confusing experience and matchup. They are not identical and are also not mutually exclusive.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

i'm arguing that after enough MATCH UP MATCH UP time playing against kirby, kirby doesn't become as much a threat as he was before

you have a pika and kirby main start playing at the same time

after one month kirby beats pika

after two months kirby still beats pika

after some MATCH MATCH UP the pika starts doing better

some amount of months later the pika player finally beats the kirby

kirby gets good fast but peeks sooner

fox is way harder to use than mario, but you'd agree that fox is better right?

with enough MATCH UP MATCH UP fox beats mario

but not at first

bc MATCH UP MATCH UP is the only key to SALVATION

k i admittedly kind of skimmed through your post bc i gotta go so forgive me if i completely missed your point LOL

my time hear is done

i'll be back later on to school you guys in the ways of MATCH UP MATCH UP

 

[caneut]

Same goes for kirby. Just throw him off and one or two solid reads on his recovery and you don't even need to apply that much damage or a death combo to kill him.

I don't understand your point

While kirby does not have the best 0death combos, kirby is still broken, and you can't just ****ing say "you can gimp kirby too."

You've played fox, you realize the consequences of a mistake. Any fox main will tell you, you make a mistake and stock. Kirby starts most of his gimps from a character making one small mistake, and kirby being so broken recovers from a hitstun and just spams A. Neutral air sends them off stage. Now the matchup is just kirby edgeguarding a character.

Now flip it around, fox gets kirby at any low percent, grabs kirby off stage, can you honestly say these two matchups are even?

Kirby edgeguarding fox
Fox edgeguarding kirby

Kirby is open to mistakes, and look up at shears post about his noob friend getting better with kirby. Would you not say movement is not the biggest factor in making mistakes? Would you say you can make equally amount of harmful mistakes with kirby than with fox?

A person who spends a lot of time playing a character, like fox, learns from mistakes, and like I said before, perfect fox with no mistakes is top tier and will always win. A fox playing a lower skills player is bound to make hardly any mistakes at all because less mental power is being used, and I'm sure less movement (button presses) are being used as the more skilled player can read much more easily.

Losers finals, z vs kero. Z is pretty much known as one of the best fox players right? What I'm saying is fox is the hardest character to use, more mental power and button presses, both which are main causes to mistakes, is needed. In a situation where you are faced up with another player of pretty close skill levels, I'm sure Z needed to perform precisely with fox to get stocks off kero's pika. And this is a fair matchup because both players are available to choose what ever character, but in that game Z chose the character that is a lot more open to mistakes and punishes, while kero did not.

 

[Shears]

I think if players were equally skilled, and time played was the same and player A had kirby and B had anyone else and neiter of these players were world class players, then B will never catch A. The assumption that player B catches A when they learn the MATCH UP MATCH UP is an assumption I can't make, because I think in your assumption you are misunderstanding what equally skilled means.

 

[caneut]

I think if players were equally skilled, and time played was the same and player A had kirby and B had anyone else and neiter of these players were world class players, then B will never catch A. The assumption that player B catches A when they learn the MATCH UP MATCH UP is an assumption I can't make, because I think in your assumption you are misunderstanding what equally skilled means.

Equally skilled meaning they both know the characters metagames and are able to perform them the same, yeah I think you made a great point there.

 

[clubbadubba]

Honestly I do pretty well vs kirby's now, and my hatred for kirby isn't becaue he's good, cheap, or easy. Its because for all 12 characters, kirby is either the least fun character to fight against, or at least one of the 2 or 3 least fun matchups. Kirby just sucks the fun out of the game, and we'd all have a better time if he wasn't in the game.

 

[mixa]

>players of equal skill