Rizen
Smash Legend
^But Ganon has been in 2 SSBs already.
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Le Lazy Lurking Link's Listen/Laugh Lounge ♪~ (^ 。^=)
- Thread starter Anonano
- Start date
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Ganon was the only notable Zelda villain at the time Melee and Brawl came out, save for Majora but he wasn't as popular. Ghirahim was famous amongst the Zelda fans so there's a possibility he'll be in Smash 4.
Famously made fun of among Zelda fans as well--I'd give Ghirahim only a small chance of making it in over Ganon. Some of those videos/comics/memes made about him are classics.
Gotta say, I really don't like the overall design of the Zelda characters in the new smash. HOWEVER, I've got to give the designers credit--Zelda looks very expressive in this one, and I do like that--a lot. Only hope they'll do the same to Link
Gotta say, I really don't like the overall design of the Zelda characters in the new smash. HOWEVER, I've got to give the designers credit--Zelda looks very expressive in this one, and I do like that--a lot. Only hope they'll do the same to Link
Rizen
Smash Legend
+ Veran/Onyx from Oracle games, the Nightmares from Link's awakening and Shadow Link from Zelda 2. I wouldn't say Majora's Mask is less popular than Ghirahim. Ganon is still, by far, the most popular and prevalent LoZ antagonist.
I'd say Ganon will not be replaced but it's possible they will add another villain too.
Naroghin
Smash Ace
I really don't think they would replace Ganondorf with Ghirahim since he was the main nemesis in the vast majority of the Zelda games (some notable exceptions, of course) and Ganondorf remains the only CF clone (less of a clone in Brawl, but still close) while Ghirahim would almost have to play like Marth, who has always had a brother character from the FE games. Not to mention there has always been a love for Ganondorf's character (even before the Smash games), while I don't think I can name a single person who didn't think Ghirahim was more of a *****y little girl than a real villain, at least in terms of his character development.
I think I would like playing as Ghirahim, though, since I have always had fun with Marth as a character. It would never be quite as satisfying as playing with Ganondorf but I think I could accept it as a necessary trade-off.
We'll just have to wait and see.
I think I would like playing as Ghirahim, though, since I have always had fun with Marth as a character. It would never be quite as satisfying as playing with Ganondorf but I think I could accept it as a necessary trade-off.
We'll just have to wait and see.
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Blue Link rocks!
InternetExplorer reps him in Melee.
LordXav1er reps him in Brawl.
Heero reps him in Project M.
White Link still has a place in my heart, though.
InternetExplorer reps him in Melee.
LordXav1er reps him in Brawl.
Heero reps him in Project M.
White Link still has a place in my heart, though.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Blue's actually my favorite true color but I use the default colors for each character.
I caught up some much needed sleep and got some good photos and hiked a bit today so I'm in a relatively good mood
http://collidoscope.deviantart.com/art/View-of-Cathedral-Park-From-Flagstaff-1-422480860
I have a lot of work moving stuff ahead of me. I should have been boxing stuff today.
I caught up some much needed sleep and got some good photos and hiked a bit today so I'm in a relatively good mood
http://collidoscope.deviantart.com/art/View-of-Cathedral-Park-From-Flagstaff-1-422480860
I have a lot of work moving stuff ahead of me. I should have been boxing stuff today.
You forget, Bomber reps him in 64 (well, white Link). 64 is still a Smash game too you know!
Rizen
Smash Legend
Good stuff Bomber
I got some good housework done already. Now I need to get groceries for my Gma. I was taking a
deadbeat holiday and now I have to get stuff done :/
I got some good housework done already. Now I need to get groceries for my Gma. I was taking a
deadbeat holiday and now I have to get stuff done :/
Heero Yuy
#sweg
It always bugs me how it's hard to use tech skill with Link on Wi-Fi, both Brawl and P:M. Although I did win a couple matches today online, it was mainly due to projectile camping and delayed spacing.
Naroghin
Smash Ace
Yeah, it's pretty tough. My main game is in edge guarding and interceptions, which is simply not reliable during wifi play. I've completed a few surprising interceptions but it's also cost me a few matches.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Yeah Link really sucks in lag . His ATs and recovery get unmanageable in heavy lag. Link's not a character who can camp by pressing 'B' or simple angle toward the opponent and press 'A' to attack, lol.
Well I had a nice 2 mile walk I'm getting back in shape after the holidays. I also did my weights and situps
. His ATs and recovery get unmanageable in heavy lag. Link's not a character who can camp by pressing 'B' or simple angle toward the opponent and press 'A' to attack, lol.Well I had a nice 2 mile walk
I'm getting back in shape after the holidays. I also did my weights and situps
Heero Yuy
#sweg
A lot of P:M Links don't know that he heavily borrows from his Brawl Link self. Whereas most P:M characters rely on their Melee counterpart knowledge, Link I feel I adapted a lot of my Brawl skills into this new game. (Seeing as though I never actually used Link in Melee.)
I'm with Bomber and I encourage you to give him a try. Brawl Link was fun to use but a nightmare overall to get good with.
I'm with Bomber and I encourage you to give him a try. Brawl Link was fun to use but a nightmare overall to get good with.
Link is a lot heavier in Melee and less mobile. They made PM Link a nice mix between Brawl Link and Melee Link. He has more punch like Melee Link, but his feel isn't too far from Brawl Link, I think maybe more accurately, he moves around more like Brawl Link.
Rizen
Smash Legend
With SSB4 around the corner and having to move and stuff, I don't want to focus on learning a new metagame for P:M :/
I went to a tourney today and repped Link in a lot of friendlies and dubz I beats several PR players with him and did really well for a long time. I ended up dropping out of singles because I'd been playing for 7 hours and was getting tired and SDing a lot :/ but the friendlies and seeing the CO smash scene made it worth while
I went to a tourney today and repped Link in a lot of friendlies and dubz
I beats several PR players with him and did really well for a long time. I ended up dropping out of singles because I'd been playing for 7 hours and was getting tired and SDing a lot :/ but the friendlies and seeing the CO smash scene made it worth while Connections
I guess so. Though I'm not able to really do anything. No name change or whatever premiums can do.
Oh, and now this, I'm just winning today:
Oh, and now this, I'm just winning today:
- 10
Awarded: Yesterday at 10:40 PM
The first rule of the Back Rooms...
...is that you don't talk about the Back Rooms. The second Rule of Back Rooms is that you display a ribbon announcing to the world that you're a member of a Back Room.
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Heero Yuy
#sweg
Something that has made me curious over a while, but why doesn't Scizor come onto these boards? Guess he's not the kind of guy who would want to help others improve their Link game in Brawl, rather he'd keep his secrets of using Link to himself? I'm not sure.
Rizen
Smash Legend
Scizor and Kirin never did much for the online forums. They're more about live stuff I guess.
I try to hold stuff together here and help Link players. Sometimes I rep Link in live events too not that anyone notices
/jk.
I try to hold stuff together here and help Link players. Sometimes I rep Link in live events too not that anyone notices
/jk.
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Anybody going to Apex? Eyeballing particularly X, Rizen, and Huggles. :o
Rizen
Smash Legend
No
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Neither am I. *shrug*
Rizen
Smash Legend
As far as I can determine the key to what makes a character successful is how well they can zone. By zoning I mean safely attack and space other characters in a given situation.
It's not a matter of recovery; look at Olimar in top tier with a terrible recovery or Jigglypuff in bottom tier. Besides, Link players have been saying Link's short recovery isn't really his problem for years, lol.
It's not really about power or speed as shown by characters like Ike and Sheik respectively being mid-tiers. High tiers like Diddy and ZSS don't really have much power but they have great zoning.
ICs can zone well enough to get that grab and have it be worth while. As a counter example, Ganon can KO the entire cast after landing 4 or 5 hits but he's bottom tier.
Every successful character is successful because their zoning abilities.
_______________________________
Link's problem is he can't zone because his bad mobility and laggy moves. Although he does best keeping the opponent between sword and Zair range at closest and making the opponent chase him or eat a bunch of projectiles, the opponent can break this preferred zoning too easily.
Link is also very weird in how he zones and it takes a lot of careful reads and complex playing. Link can't be aggressive or campy in a traditional sense; he does everything to support his weird spacing needs.
With that said, I think Link has the tools to be a high tier in skilled hands but he lacks the stats. Look at Toon Link; his ground game is slower than Link's but he has the air speed and mobility to actually zone. Link has some incredibly good zoning tools: good reach rivaling Marth's, Zair, bombs and 3 projectiles that work together and can set up locks and frame traps, landing canceling aerials. All these things work well together but his stats kill his potential.
Terrible air speed, ranked 34th. 35th place for running speed. Terrible roll dodges, frame 11 grab, frame 7 jump and Brawl's nerfed to death Spin Attack make his OoS terrible. Frame 6 jab/Dsmash as fastest ground attacks and Link is generally laggy in all his moves compared to high tiers (Snake's Ftilt is frame 4).
______________________
So my theory is to make Link high/top tier in the current Brawl cast (but not OP) he needs these stats:
(current fame data: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=124952)
Frames start/IASA
Jab 3/16 (and shorten gaps in the jab combo accordingly)
Dash attack 6/40
Ftilt 11/35
Utilt 7/35 (same)
Dtilt 9/26 and give it a small sweet spot bubble that has priority (like Zelda's Fair) for the spike.
Fsmash1 10/35 and add hitbubbles behind Link like TL's Fsmash
Fsmash2 can begin 18 frames after Fsmash 1 and IASA 40, also add hitbubble on Link's body like TL has
Usmash 8,16,26/50
Dsmash 6,14/46
Nair 5/30
Fair 10,21/38
Bair 4,12/24
Uair 9/46 (landing canceling on 39)
Dair 9/68 (landing canceling and hitbubbles end on 58)
Zair 10,20 and reduce end lag (IDK how long it is)
Grabs
Standing 9/65
Running 10/75
Pivot 11/65
Boost throws' damage to
Fthrow/Bthrow/Uthrow 9%, Dthrow 11%
Specials
Arrows 15/22 (uncharged) +Allow Link to hold fully charged arrows like Sheik's needles.
Boomerang 20/32 +boost air speed and range
Bomb Pull 22/40
Spin Attack 6,8,18/55 (3 separate hits) +enlarge and add hitbubbles to Melee's size. In the air boost height to 1.5x and generate momentum.
Buff roll dodges a bit.
and boost Link's speeds to:
air .94 (same as TL)
walk 1.22
run 1.39 (same as ICs)
fall 2.67 (same)
Link should jump and be in the air on frame 5 not 7
Character stats are based on what is listed here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/prin...itive-2012-edition-tutorial-vid-added.316961/
Keep in mind this is a rough draft. I know it's serious frame buffs but very few changes to how moves work and those could be left out.
So in SSB4 IF Link gets half decent states he could be viable in the competitive metagame.
It's not a matter of recovery; look at Olimar in top tier with a terrible recovery or Jigglypuff in bottom tier. Besides, Link players have been saying Link's short recovery isn't really his problem for years, lol.
It's not really about power or speed as shown by characters like Ike and Sheik respectively being mid-tiers. High tiers like Diddy and ZSS don't really have much power but they have great zoning.
ICs can zone well enough to get that grab and have it be worth while. As a counter example, Ganon can KO the entire cast after landing 4 or 5 hits but he's bottom tier.
Every successful character is successful because their zoning abilities.
_______________________________
Link's problem is he can't zone because his bad mobility and laggy moves. Although he does best keeping the opponent between sword and Zair range at closest and making the opponent chase him or eat a bunch of projectiles, the opponent can break this preferred zoning too easily.
Link is also very weird in how he zones and it takes a lot of careful reads and complex playing. Link can't be aggressive or campy in a traditional sense; he does everything to support his weird spacing needs.
With that said, I think Link has the tools to be a high tier in skilled hands but he lacks the stats. Look at Toon Link; his ground game is slower than Link's but he has the air speed and mobility to actually zone. Link has some incredibly good zoning tools: good reach rivaling Marth's, Zair, bombs and 3 projectiles that work together and can set up locks and frame traps, landing canceling aerials. All these things work well together but his stats kill his potential.
Terrible air speed, ranked 34th. 35th place for running speed. Terrible roll dodges, frame 11 grab, frame 7 jump and Brawl's nerfed to death Spin Attack make his OoS terrible. Frame 6 jab/Dsmash as fastest ground attacks and Link is generally laggy in all his moves compared to high tiers (Snake's Ftilt is frame 4).
______________________
So my theory is to make Link high/top tier in the current Brawl cast (but not OP) he needs these stats:
(current fame data: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=124952)
Frames start/IASA
Jab 3/16 (and shorten gaps in the jab combo accordingly)
Dash attack 6/40
Ftilt 11/35
Utilt 7/35 (same)
Dtilt 9/26 and give it a small sweet spot bubble that has priority (like Zelda's Fair) for the spike.
Fsmash1 10/35 and add hitbubbles behind Link like TL's Fsmash
Fsmash2 can begin 18 frames after Fsmash 1 and IASA 40, also add hitbubble on Link's body like TL has
Usmash 8,16,26/50
Dsmash 6,14/46
Nair 5/30
Fair 10,21/38
Bair 4,12/24
Uair 9/46 (landing canceling on 39)
Dair 9/68 (landing canceling and hitbubbles end on 58)
Zair 10,20 and reduce end lag (IDK how long it is)
Grabs
Standing 9/65
Running 10/75
Pivot 11/65
Boost throws' damage to
Fthrow/Bthrow/Uthrow 9%, Dthrow 11%
Specials
Arrows 15/22 (uncharged) +Allow Link to hold fully charged arrows like Sheik's needles.
Boomerang 20/32 +boost air speed and range
Bomb Pull 22/40
Spin Attack 6,8,18/55 (3 separate hits) +enlarge and add hitbubbles to Melee's size. In the air boost height to 1.5x and generate momentum.
Buff roll dodges a bit.
and boost Link's speeds to:
air .94 (same as TL)
walk 1.22
run 1.39 (same as ICs)
fall 2.67 (same)
Link should jump and be in the air on frame 5 not 7
Character stats are based on what is listed here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/prin...itive-2012-edition-tutorial-vid-added.316961/
Keep in mind this is a rough draft. I know it's serious frame buffs but very few changes to how moves work and those could be left out.
So in SSB4 IF Link gets half decent states he could be viable in the competitive metagame.
HarryTheChin
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 815
I just got learned.
Naroghin
Smash Ace
And he can KO most of the cast at 0% with his Dair spike, further strengthening your point. Comes in handy when people force the fight to the edge after losing a stock to Ganon in the hopes they'll get a quick gimp.
Anyway, I like your proposed buffs; they don't sound unreasonable to me. Then again nothing sounds unreasonable to Link mains, haha. Also, his backwards roll should change to quick/low backflip. He has always standing-backflipped to dodge in his games, why does he have to roll backwards in smash? He has also always seemed pretty light on his feet, too, besides smash games. What gives?
Rizen
Smash Legend
Happy New Year from Colorado!!!
Embarrass
Embarrass
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Harry I wanna Link ditto you sometime in P:M. I hear a lot of good things from people about your P:M skills. :o
HarryTheChin
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 815
Haha, sure thing dude.
Gentlemen, I have an announcement i have declared 2014 the year of Link expect big things i'm going to give it everything i got to show link isn't as bad as we're all force fed by top players and the mediocre mid skilled players, unfortunately i can't make apex this year but SKTAR 3 if it happens will be my next national i will try my best to make you guys proud. :D
Edit: also feel free to ask me any questions or if someone wants to work with me on a video to show the current link meta since i feel all the old link videos by the past link mains are rather out dated.
Edit: also feel free to ask me any questions or if someone wants to work with me on a video to show the current link meta since i feel all the old link videos by the past link mains are rather out dated.
N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣
不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2012
- Messages
- 3,123
Edit: No NTAO
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Rizen
Smash Legend
Sure I'll play. Let me fire up the wii.
edit, are you ~COH~?
edit, are you ~COH~?
Happy New Years guys! I also agree. This year will be the year of the Link. We may be few but, we have the determination and we have each other so we can definitely work towards a goal where Link is viewed in a different light this year.
N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣
不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2012
- Messages
- 3,123
Last edited: