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Large Skill Gap: Do you understand it?

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
People get trapped in the tech skill trap all the time. People spend so much mental energy saying things to themselves like "wave dash, dash dance, shffl, waveland" when in reality, it is much more important in smash to know how to barely hit the enemy with your hitbox, or to hit them while htey are in shield and land behind them or far away from them. Oftentimes, people who have bad fundamentals are simiply not thinking about the problem. The problem is your getting shieldgrabbed? Then really focus on where you land after your aerial connects with a shield.
 

Phaiyte

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
932
I feel like my Marth and Ganon have just crossed really large plateaus over the last few days. It's honestly one of the most satisfying experiences in the world.

As a long time player though, I'll be one of the ones to tell you that focusing on just tech skill will not win games for you. Not even against intermediatish-beginners, even though they might be impressed with your movement. If they have better fundamentals than you, chances are you'll still lose. If you fundamentals are good enough, you practically never even have to move to win against someone who's just all tech no skill. Your spacing and mental play are much more vital than wavedashing will ever be.
 

"Shion"

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
570
Location
Le Cooch
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Shion_Sensei
I feel like my Marth and Ganon have just crossed really large plateaus over the last few days. It's honestly one of the most satisfying experiences in the world.

As a long time player though, I'll be one of the ones to tell you that focusing on just tech skill will not win games for you. Not even against intermediatish-beginners, even though they might be impressed with your movement. If they have better fundamentals than you, chances are you'll still lose. If you fundamentals are good enough, you practically never even have to move to win against someone who's just all tech no skill. Your spacing and mental play are much more vital than wavedashing will ever be.
Yeah I put this to use last night at a monthly tournament with some high profile mother****ers.

I got torn a new one, but I noticed that simple little things took a stock or two. Against the other peeps though, I found tntk be extremely simple beating them because they had simple habits that I caught up on.

I'm going to keep trying to implement that more and more.
 

MoonlapseOpethian

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
343
Location
Fruitland Park/Leesburg, FL
I guess a good parallel to draw would be - have you ever played against a friend who picks Kirby and just jumps up into the sky, then does Down-B? That's really, really easy for you to deal with, and you probably destroy that kid. And he's shocked because that stuff usually works on the people/CPUs he plays against, so he's like "aww man, you're so good at Smash!"

Or maybe taking it a little further, you've got a guy who plays Sheik, and always approaches with a dash attack. That's not as nubby as Kirby's Down-B, but it's still really easy to deal with. So again, every time you see him running at you, you know a dash attack's coming.

To these high level players, that's what you or I look like. We're just really, really predictable and telegraphed. There might be a good back and forth for about 50%, but then they understand us and what we're trying to do, and they just take us apart.

It's one of those things that can be tough to deal with, because you might not even realize what it is about you that's so predictable. That's why a lot of people say it helps to watch footage of yourself.
Exactly. I remember watching Brawl replay footage of myself from a year ago, and facepalmed at all the stupid mistakes I made. Granted, it was against CPU's, but I still noticed that I chose options that were less viable than others. It helps.
 

Xinc

Smash Lord
Joined
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xincmars
3DS FC
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I definitely feel like I've hit a plateau. Mostly because I don't get any time at all to practice, because I'm so busy, but to top it all off, I have literally no one to practice with.
That's always the problem when you have studies or are far from tournies.
 

Brim

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
819
NNID
Bitterbub
That's always the problem when you have studies or are far from tournies.
It's mostly just work for me - and literally no one in my community smashes except for like two guys, and only one of them actually takes the game seriously, and I talk to this one dude like three times a month.
 

Xinc

Smash Lord
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I feel like watching videos of good people gives you a better understanding and can make the plateau a bit higher, since you have more applicable knowledge.
 

Brim

Smash Ace
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Apr 6, 2010
Messages
819
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Bitterbub
I feel like watching videos of good people gives you a better understanding and can make the plateau a bit higher, since you have more applicable knowledge.
Yes, but when you're at where I am, I get what's going on in the matches perfectly. What gets to me, is that it bugs me how I know exactly what they're doing, and why they're doing it, but I can rarely match what they're doing - like dash dancing. For some reason that technique is harder for me than most.
 

9bit

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
2,740
Location
Illinois
If there is no Smash scene in your area: create one!

Find a nearby community center or college, see if you can use some space once a week, print fliers and hang them on walls, invite people from Facebook, do whatever you gotta do man!

Smash Bros has always been about that. We made it what it is today all by ourselves with no help from Nintendo or big companies and sponsors. Be the catalyst in your area.
 

Spookyjunk

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
20
Location
Aurora, Colorado
I live in Fort Collins Colorado and I play Project M the most. Brim I am a smasher in Colorado but do not know anyone else around here
I'm just starting to get into the smash scene. I live in aurora(centennial) Colorado. I'd like to get some friendlies in some time. Hit me up dude.
 

Brim

Smash Ace
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Apr 6, 2010
Messages
819
NNID
Bitterbub
I live in Fort Collins Colorado and I play Project M the most. Brim I am a smasher in Colorado but do not know anyone else around here
I wish I lived closer man, I'm all the way in Evergreen - nearly a two hour drive. And, trust me when I tell you my truck is most definitely not gas-saving.
 

"Shion"

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
570
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Le Cooch
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Shion_Sensei
Ol' boy is right. Create a scene for
Smash and people will flock to it.

There ARE smashers in your area, but sometimes they just never have a strong enough voice to be heard.
 

THK

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
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469
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Margate, FL
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TheRedKirby
3DS FC
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I will never understand topics like this. The only sure fire way to get better is to play as much as you can against as many different people as you can.
That'll never work if you never learn.

Also this thread is pretty cool and someone probably mentioned this and I missed it but if you have the ability to record your matches, do so and look back on it, see what you're doing wrong, see what your opponent's doing. It's kinda hard to do that within a match if you aren't mentally up to snuff (took me a while to realize to I have a bad back rolling habit, now all I need is shock therapy to get rid of it). Alternatively, if you have someone that can explain the issues to you, that works too.

Also yeah advertising around colleges is a good way to draw people out.
 

smashbro29

Smash Champion
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That'll never work if you never learn.

Also this thread is pretty cool and someone probably mentioned this and I missed it but if you have the ability to record your matches, do so and look back on it, see what you're doing wrong, see what your opponent's doing. It's kinda hard to do that within a match if you aren't mentally up to snuff (took me a while to realize to I have a bad back rolling habit, now all I need is shock therapy to get rid of it). Alternatively, if you have someone that can explain the issues to you, that works too.

Also yeah advertising around colleges is a good way to draw people out.
But that's how you'd learn...
 

THK

Smash Journeyman
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TheRedKirby
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But that's how you'd learn...
There are people, believe it or not, that do play without learning and thus they never improve. They never ask "why am I losing? Why does this work? Why doesn't this work?", they're the kind that go "But I can beat level 9 CPU". No thinking, no learning, they just DO.
 

Bukowski On Ice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
42
Location
San Francisco, CA
That actually makes a lot of sense^

I do that when I have a boxing match to watch for my own errors,
I just never thought of applying that to smash.

Unfortunately, the ear to record and stream is a bit expensive. xD

So lots of practice is also helping.. That and being precise with my execution.
Smash is a LOT like boxing. Every single player gets into a rhythm from which they can process you. The best players read their opponent's rhythm and then set their own rhythm to counter the pace. Practicing tech skill (especially alone) can build bad habits.

For example a player may WD twice backward then twice forward after every kill because that's the routine built into them. Those are movements without purpose, which will often put you in a bad situation.

The most important thing to do while playing is to THINK through every move you're going to make instead of "auto-piloting" or convincing yourself that the move you WANT to do is the move that you SHOULD do next.

That's why people hit a plateau. They don't process every moment of a fight because they think that ATs are what separate the good players from the bad. Or because they're not thinking, evaluating, and responding.
 

Tree Cat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 27, 2013
Messages
32
Work on spacing and APPLYING tech skill. Being able to wavedash across the stage means nothing.
 

"Shion"

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
570
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Le Cooch
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Shion_Sensei
I learned recently that a good understanding of the punish game is (obviously) VERY crucial to having an edge on your opponent.

If you don't understand or know your character's strong points and capabilities to inflict damage, you'll never be ABLE to.
 

UltimateWario

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
3,067
Location
Indiana, US
I'm definitely in that horrible void between "above casual skill levels" and "competetive skill levels". I can take a stock, maybe two, off of a highly skilled player, but I can't expect much more than that. I have no one to play with, nor the willingness to devote myself entirely to the game that becoming a "pro" seems to require.

Beyond learning new techniques on my own, I think I've hit my plateau, although I think I'm okay with it. I can take out 3.0 Lvl. 9s with relative ease, and I know Samus, Mewtwo, and Wario's ins-and-outs pretty well (I especially know Samus like the back of my hand), so I think I can be happy with where I'm at. I don't plan on entering any real tournaments any time soon, and it's nice to be able to hold my own really well in friendlies.

So, yeah, I understand the skill gap. I appreciate it, observe it, and don't plan on trying to bridge it.
 

"Shion"

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
570
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Le Cooch
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I'm definitely in that horrible void between "above casual skill levels" and "competetive skill levels". I can take a stock, maybe two, off of a highly skilled player, but I can't expect much more than that. I have no one to play with, nor the willingness to devote myself entirely to the game that becoming a "pro" seems to require.

Beyond learning new techniques on my own, I think I've hit my plateau, although I think I'm okay with it. I can take out 3.0 Lvl. 9s with relative ease, and I know Samus, Mewtwo, and Wario's ins-and-outs pretty well (I especially know Samus like the back of my hand), so I think I can be happy with where I'm at. I don't plan on entering any real tournaments any time soon, and it's nice to be able to hold my own really well in friendlies.

So, yeah, I understand the skill gap. I appreciate it, observe it, and don't plan on trying to bridge it.
I feel you. I'd say I'm in the same place more or less.

I'm in a different mindset, though. I tire of the higher players treating the rest as 'below' them as players and as people. I live for the day that I wipe that smirk off their faces by being defeated by a 'scrub'.
 

UltimateWario

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
3,067
Location
Indiana, US
I feel you. I'd say I'm in the same place more or less.

I'm in a different mindset, though. I tire of the higher players treating the rest as 'below' them as players and as people. I live for the day that I wipe that smirk off their faces by being defeated by a 'scrub'.
More power to you, friend. Determination makes all the difference in the world.
 

Mera Mera

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
372
Location
Neenah, WI
The most recent epiphany I've had with this game was realizing I go for reads in situations where if I instead just wait and react, I can get a punish every time.

The best example of this is tech chasing. A lot of people try to read where the person will go before they actually can react and see the opponents tech choice (tech left, tech right, tech stand, no tech).

Try to wait and punish as you see their tech choice (tech stand being the fastest so be ready for that first). When trying to read them, if they tech away, they may get away depending on your character and the character who is teching (barring no ledge stops them short, making them easier to reach). Nonetheless it is still better to wait and react because teching away puts them in a bad position anyways (being closer to the ledge than they once were, giving them less space to retreat/dash dance).

Oh and you'll want to be near them when they land so if they don't tech you can jab (making them stand up, invincible at first but then can be hit before they can move later, called a "jab reset") or tilt them. You'll want to jab reset for a grab if your character can (Zard can't, cause his jab is a launcher and some can't cause their jab is too high), or you can tilt if it has a guaranteed followup or will cause a knockdown, leading to another tech chase.

The other example I have is when you hit someone and they DI right, and you can't hit them, don't necessarily still try to do the same combo anyways. Think about their options... if you waiting or re-positioning yourself puts them in a worse position, do that. If using a disjointed attack from a safe distance gives them no or bad options, do that.
 
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Yurya

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
187
That's a bad way to look at it.
If everyone who's a better player than you thought like this then you'd have no opponents to face and a very slim chance of improving.
I believe Korean DJ played $1 MMs to get better players to both play him and play well.
 

HyperrCrow

Emotional Reality
Joined
Mar 1, 2013
Messages
1,422
Location
Boston, MA
I believe Korean DJ played $1 MMs to get better players to both play him and play well.
It was $5 each. Although you have to account that had he not MM'ed those better players he would have been shrugged off. Not all less skilled players are willing to drop insane amounts of cash to get better at the game. Playing people who are below your skill level isn't always bad.
KDJ 4-stocks me most of the time, as well as most of us MA players, but you don't see his skill degrading, the guy was one spot off top 16 in Melee this year at APEX after not attending any big tournaments for a long time.

tl;dr - you can still learn something from less skilled players
 
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Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
6,232
Location
Hall of Dreams' Great Mausoleum
As long as you keep in mind to be observant, rather than just autopilot, knowing you have the win, sure.

Which is what gets me when commentators will say things like M2K or Mango or whoever are "just playing around" in their first stocks. They aren't playing around; they're using that time to get reads and figure out the opponent. That is why they can come back after losing a stock and clean sweep the rest of the match.

Addendum: Mango does genuinely play around in finals occasionally and generally does not take his opponent or the match seriously.
 
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