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Large Skill Gap: Do you understand it?

"Shion"

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I've been practicing pretty hardcore with tech skills like SHFFL, Waveshine, etc etc to really up my game with the characters I want to be excellent with, but I believe I hit a plateu.

I'll play against someone who's been around the block for a while longer, and it seems that I just cannot do a thing against them. Almost game breaking. I barely am able to remove a stock until all 4 of mine are gone instantly. It's not that I'm terrible; I like to think I'm somewhat skilled, but players who have been to higher profile tournaments and such seem to be a few levels above.

Is this skill gap simply due from them having more experience, or is there something I'm missing here?

Do you guys experience this too?
 

HyperrCrow

Emotional Reality
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They just have better fundamentals, spacing, mindgames, etc. Competing in tournaments gives you an edge over people who don't.
 

JOE!

Smash Hero
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There's a difference between knowing how to do techs like SHFFL, WD'ing, etc, and knowing how to apply them in an actual match. People who've been around for much longer more or less have that much more Experience than you based on the amount of time advantage, but that -can- be overcome as generally there is diminishing returns after a certain point (in my opinion anyway) where time experience won't mean -too- much compared to just plain fundamentals + applications.

In other words, just keep playing vs people and pick up on the next step after techs: mental play :)
 

XStarWarriorX

[Get Ready]
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Nope. haven't hit the "plateu" yet. But yeah JOE! just ninja'd me, that's basically what i was gonna say, play people better than you and learn to APPLY what you've learned. Keep at it bro, i know you'll do good :p
 

Brim

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Apr 6, 2010
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I definitely feel like I've hit a plateau. Mostly because I don't get any time at all to practice, because I'm so busy, but to top it all off, I have literally no one to practice with.
 

NWRL

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Joined
Aug 23, 2013
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544
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I felt like I was at a plateau with one of my buddies but then I just played him again last night and I was able to drop his best character down to one stock before I lost multiple times, and it's all because I changed up my mental game and tried a little harder to predict what he was doing. Mental game gets you FAR in Melee/P:M
 

Chzrm3

Smash Ace
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I guess a good parallel to draw would be - have you ever played against a friend who picks Kirby and just jumps up into the sky, then does Down-B? That's really, really easy for you to deal with, and you probably destroy that kid. And he's shocked because that stuff usually works on the people/CPUs he plays against, so he's like "aww man, you're so good at Smash!"

Or maybe taking it a little further, you've got a guy who plays Sheik, and always approaches with a dash attack. That's not as nubby as Kirby's Down-B, but it's still really easy to deal with. So again, every time you see him running at you, you know a dash attack's coming.

To these high level players, that's what you or I look like. We're just really, really predictable and telegraphed. There might be a good back and forth for about 50%, but then they understand us and what we're trying to do, and they just take us apart.

It's one of those things that can be tough to deal with, because you might not even realize what it is about you that's so predictable. That's why a lot of people say it helps to watch footage of yourself.
 

"Shion"

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That actually makes a lot of sense^

I do that when I have a boxing match to watch for my own errors,
I just never thought of applying that to smash.

Unfortunately, the ear to record and stream is a bit expensive. xD

So lots of practice is also helping.. That and being precise with my execution.
 

CORY

wut
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it also helps to either play with someone similar in level (which is kind of your problem, correct?) or someone who might wipe the floor with you, but is able to explain why they're doing what they're doing (either midmatch or after).
 

TreK

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I've been practicing pretty hardcore with tech skills like SHFFL, Waveshine, etc etc to really up my game with the characters I want to be excellent with, but I believe I hit a plateu.
From reading this first sentence, my immediate reaction was "another guy who thinks Smash is all about the tech skill".
Now in Smash it's all very confusing, because ATs do not just give you more numerous options, they also give you superior options. But even though learning ATs does make you slightly more effective, it does not instantly make you less predictable.
Now I don't know you and I could very well be wrong about you. But in case I'm not, here's what I'm going to say : competitive games are not about pressing a lot of buttons, they're about the interactivity. People who autopilot, no matter how technical they are, are easy to beat. It's not that you hit a plateau, it's that you don't have to be distracted by tech skill gimmicks anymore, and you can now get busy getting actually good. To sum it up, you've learned how to, now you have to learn when to. And we're all pretty much stuck there, because decision making is a skill of which the ceiling is as high as your opponent is able to raise it.
 

"Shion"

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You guys are bringing up some awesome points.

I don't think being skilled is all up to AT's, i figured that my options would be more open if I learned these tactics so I can execute them in different ways to chain combos.

But yeah, you did hit the nail on the head.
 

#HBC | Joker

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You're experiencing something that literally everyone goes through, usually pretty early on in their career. Just don't get discouraged, keep practicing your tech skill, and definitely keep playing with those people who are better than you. After playing them for long enough, you will eventually catch up to them out of sheer necessity.
 

"Shion"

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Playing people who aren't as good or on par skill-wise is a liability, IMO.

Don't have too many friends who are better besides my brother and Krich2nd, but none if is are near the high ranking gameplay I've vsed. I'll keep at it.
 

NightShadow6

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It is such a wonderful feeling though, once you finally see that improvement that we all strive for.
 

Starcutter

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this is especially hard for people like me who really don't have anyone who lives nearby to play with. like me. I don't got anyone. :urg:

sucks when you want to do competitively.
 

HyperrCrow

Emotional Reality
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Playing people who aren't as good or on par skill-wise is a liability, IMO.
That's a bad way to look at it.
If everyone who's a better player than you thought like this then you'd have no opponents to face and a very slim chance of improving.
 

Kink-Link5

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The best advice I can give is to take time to sit back as much as you can and draw out matches. Not to be a **** or grief your opponent, and not to win either. Rather, at this point, where you are still trying to learn as much as you can and apply it, extending matches out as long as possible provides many benefits.

1.) You can observe your opponent more, see how they approach, and see how they apply things. This strategy evolves at higher levels into picking up on patterns, but it works at lower levels to see what works.

2.) You will develop a sense of control over your opponent by avoiding and playing this way. You won't win, and that's fine, but by making your opponent come at you, you are forcing them into a broad range of things that encompass "approaching." This evolves into mindgames and higher level control, but at this point, is useful for getting a sense of causing the game to go at your own pace.

3.) You are forced to react and predict attacks. If you don't want to die and get hit over and over, the best way is to, well, avoid getting hit. It's an old adage, but it applies to the learning process. It is vital at all levels to avoid as much damage as possible, and it paves the way to understanding positioning and spacing.

4.) On spacing: You will get a better sense for assessing threats at various positions. You don't shield when you're on the opposite side of the stage right? Well, unless Falco lasers are involved I guess. But usually it's a bad idea. The same applies for shielding outside of your opponent's range of threat. This range is not evident, because it is not based solely on the range of attacks. Rather, it is the range from which an opponent could reach out with their fastest attack from furthest away within your personal comfortable reaction time. If you have a slow reaction time, it's a further point away, and faster is closer, but it all is based on knowing that maximum distance. This can only be done if you spend time exploring this distance, which means keeping away. You will, over time, come to pick up on just how far away you can stay, and how much you can push into your opponent's range safely, by exploring this area of the game.

That's all I have to say on playing patiently, observantly, and defensively, but I do have another point of advice.

Play more, and play opponents who are honestly trying their hardest. If you do so with an observant mindset regarding what your opponent is doing, as well as taking notes on what you yourself are doing, what is working, what isn't, and what you can do different in every situation, you'll no doubt see improvement.

Another point:

DO NOT PLAY TO WIN

I can't say enough what a stupid mindset this is, because it's a paradox in the first place. If you aren't winning, you aren't playing to win, or at least, don't have the toolset and mentality to do so. So what do you do instead?

PLAY TO LEARN.

The more you lose and the more you learn from it, the better you will get. Don't play to lose by any means, but do play to improve.

Actually, **** it, play to lose a game once in a while too. Do literally everything you think will be the worst decision outside of outright killing yourself, then ingrain how many of them are genuinely bad decisions and how many of them serve as surprising gimmicks that throw off your opponent.

Finally, don't stop practicing your tech skill as well. High level play is a balance of thinking, outthinking, playing and outplaying, as well as executing on point, so keep in mind what you're doing, and hopefully get to a point where you are not consciously thinking how to execute, but rather thinking, "If I SHFFL a nair and drift back just a bit, it will poke out safely and make my opponent make a mistake in their attempt to punish."
 

Fish&Herbs19

Smash Journeyman
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One thing that has helped me enormously is playing a character that doesn't have so many AT's to begin with. So no Fox, or any type of spacie. Playing DDD has really improved my mental game and by playing a slower paced (due to playing a non-aggressive DDD), I can really process gameplay and consciously chose options.
 

Johnknight1

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All that AT stuff at the beginning is nonsense. At the competitive level everyone can do that. The only difference with it at the competitive player is how well people use them and know how to use them, which usually isn't that big of a deal.

A match is ultimately decided on how well you space, use and apply techniques, time your opponent, DI, take advantage of opportunities recovery, defend recovery, and mix up your stuff to become unpredictable. If you execute in those areas, there is little to no way you will lose.
They just have better fundamentals, spacing, mindgames, etc. Competing in tournaments gives you an edge over people who don't.
Not only that, but when you face such people, ask them how they beat you, what their strategy was, what to do better, how to do better, how to beat what beat you, and in general just what they think you need to get better.

Then, after they do that (or before they do that), you should break down your game that way.

One thing I know I used to not do before I ask someone was edge grab reset. It really setup my timing to be way better at getting on the stage. Also, mixing up my tech landing (role forward, backwards, don't role, or don't even tech). Apparently I rarely never tech'd or tech'd backwards, and because of that, it hurt my game.

But yeah, it sounds like you hate losing, too. That's fine. Some people don't.

If you don't hate losing, then learn to love learning. Become enthralled by it, and your game will get to a new level. You should be open to losing to top players to learn, because then, you really may learn. Don't be afraid to love using what you learned and winning by it. In fact, that love of learning should lead to a sense of fulfillment in winning. That is something worth being proud of.

If you hate losing (or performing poorly), then channel that hate to love learning. Let that hatred for losing (or performing) drive you to want to get better, and thus, do whatever means necessary to become a better player, including losing more. Then, once you win, you will feel fulfilled because you went the right way, the hard way, in order to win. That is something worth being proud of.
 

"Shion"

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I'm going to use that today.^

A few smashers are coming to my place to throw down, so I'll put some of that stuff to good use!
 

#HBC | Joker

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Saying that practicing tech skill is nonsense is flat out wrong. Tech skill alone won't make you a good player, but it's absolutely a requirement for advancing your gameplay. If you don't have the techskill to perform the things you want to do, you won't be able to outplay your opponent.
 

"Shion"

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That's exactly what I thought too, which is why I put a lot of effort into at least learning HOW to do these things so I could try and incorporate them in my gameplay when the time came.
 

Spiffykins

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
547
It's just the first step though, and probably what advances first for a lot of people these days. I'm sure back when tech skill was much less developed in general, it was more about the mindgames at all levels of play, and the good players learned tech skill along the way as it was advanced by the community. Now the game is at a point where anyone can look up tutorials, threads, etc and practice how to do all those shenanigans, so learning all that first certainly doesn't hurt but the mental aspect is, as has already been said, something that primarily comes with experience.

I'm in pretty much the same spot as you, I'd like to think my tech skill is roughly 80% as good as it will ever be, but I am totally aware of just how much further there is for me to go. On the one hand it's daunting, but on the other it's really exciting. So what if I'm getting 3-4 stocked 90% of the time now. I just want to get better, and I can't wait to start seeing the results written on my opponents' faces.
 

Brim

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Bitterbub
The best advice I can give is to take time to sit back as much as you can and draw out matches. Not to be a **** or grief your opponent, and not to win either. Rather, at this point, where you are still trying to learn as much as you can and apply it, extending matches out as long as possible provides many benefits.

1.) You can observe your opponent more, see how they approach, and see how they apply things. This strategy evolves at higher levels into picking up on patterns, but it works at lower levels to see what works.

2.) You will develop a sense of control over your opponent by avoiding and playing this way. You won't win, and that's fine, but by making your opponent come at you, you are forcing them into a broad range of things that encompass "approaching." This evolves into mindgames and higher level control, but at this point, is useful for getting a sense of causing the game to go at your own pace.

3.) You are forced to react and predict attacks. If you don't want to die and get hit over and over, the best way is to, well, avoid getting hit. It's an old adage, but it applies to the learning process. It is vital at all levels to avoid as much damage as possible, and it paves the way to understanding positioning and spacing.

4.) On spacing: You will get a better sense for assessing threats at various positions. You don't shield when you're on the opposite side of the stage right? Well, unless Falco lasers are involved I guess. But usually it's a bad idea. The same applies for shielding outside of your opponent's range of threat. This range is not evident, because it is not based solely on the range of attacks. Rather, it is the range from which an opponent could reach out with their fastest attack from furthest away within your personal comfortable reaction time. If you have a slow reaction time, it's a further point away, and faster is closer, but it all is based on knowing that maximum distance. This can only be done if you spend time exploring this distance, which means keeping away. You will, over time, come to pick up on just how far away you can stay, and how much you can push into your opponent's range safely, by exploring this area of the game.

That's all I have to say on playing patiently, observantly, and defensively, but I do have another point of advice.

Play more, and play opponents who are honestly trying their hardest. If you do so with an observant mindset regarding what your opponent is doing, as well as taking notes on what you yourself are doing, what is working, what isn't, and what you can do different in every situation, you'll no doubt see improvement.

Another point:

DO NOT PLAY TO WIN

I can't say enough what a stupid mindset this is, because it's a paradox in the first place. If you aren't winning, you aren't playing to win, or at least, don't have the toolset and mentality to do so. So what do you do instead?

PLAY TO LEARN.

The more you lose and the more you learn from it, the better you will get. Don't play to lose by any means, but do play to improve.

Actually, **** it, play to lose a game once in a while too. Do literally everything you think will be the worst decision outside of outright killing yourself, then ingrain how many of them are genuinely bad decisions and how many of them serve as surprising gimmicks that throw off your opponent.

Finally, don't stop practicing your tech skill as well. High level play is a balance of thinking, outthinking, playing and outplaying, as well as executing on point, so keep in mind what you're doing, and hopefully get to a point where you are not consciously thinking how to execute, but rather thinking, "If I SHFFL a nair and drift back just a bit, it will poke out safely and make my opponent make a mistake in their attempt to punish."
I absolutely love everything said here.
 

GaretHax

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
464
Have you tried approaching things from a different perspective? It's very easy to get distracted with match-ups, tech-skill, and other strategies when playing and forget that that you are actually playing against another human being. Practice can create a false personal need to use the newly acquired techs, which while not being an inherently bad thing, will sometimes be the proverbial straw that breaks one's focus. Melee, and by extension, PM demands an immense amount of awareness and focus, which can be difficult for newer players to muster whilst also trying to l-cancel, wondering whether they should wavedash now or when their opponent gets closer; maybe just go for a poke, or waveland on the platform unless it is Marth, but if you shield and grab him..., etc. My point is that this game can be incredibly mentally overwhelming and it is surprisingly easy to stop giving your opponent the attention required to perform at your best, which in a game with a skill ceiling as unobtainable as Melee can make things very frustrating pretty fast. Try taking a step back, slowing yourself down and just watching your opponent and yourself, try to pick up on the patterns and spacing going on, both your own and your opponent's. Try to view things from the perspective of an observer and actively think about the options presenting themselves, notice when both you and your opponent go in, what options you utilize, why either of you would attempt it and what you are trying to do. It can be really hard to enhance or regain the mental aspect of your game, but it is something worth working on. Just try to pay more attention, learn as much as you can about your game, their game, and PM itself from your opponent, and try to think around their strategies while prevent them from doing the same to you, really just be as aware and receptive to information as you can be, but mostly enjoy yourself and don't let the struggle to improve leech the fun out of the experience for you. We all have room to improve and learning how to beat someone better than you, even if they are cripplingly, overwhelmingly, depressingly so, can be really exciting and rewarding if approached with the proper mindset.
 

smashbro29

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I will never understand topics like this. The only sure fire way to get better is to play as much as you can against as many different people as you can.
 

Xinc

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I definitely feel like I've hit a plateau. Mostly because I don't get any time at all to practice, because I'm so busy, but to top it all off, I have literally no one to practice with.
I'd say use the wifi if you can't reach any practice. There's a really good matchmaking site for battles and a lot of the people there are pretty good.
 

trash?

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not in the slightest, no. it's not that you can't transfer skills from wi-fi to IRL, it's that you're going to also be transferring really bad habits if you aren't careful. doubly so if you play any tech-skill heavy characters, it's why you see spacies little online

if you have a decent enough computer, people are just doing online matches through dolphin now, which, while not exactly being local-level of goodness, is good enough to get things going
 

"Shion"

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Ehh I'd rather stick with meeting people up, makes life more interesting.
 

Brim

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Bitterbub
I'd say use the wifi if you can't reach any practice. There's a really good matchmaking site for battles and a lot of the people there are pretty good.
My internet is absolutely horrid. Going online for Smash is basically the last thing I want to do, and personally I'd prefer the face to face encounter.

Speaking of which - where are most of the Colorado Smashers? I can't find any remotely near me.
 

Blarg I'm Dead

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
105
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Colorado State University
Bunch of **** posts up in here but Chzrm3, kink-link, and johknight1 said it best. I'm not gonna bore you with a novel but the more experienced players have more match up knowledge and a better punish game. Chances are they are reading your habits and punishing you for your choices.

examples being;

Do you jump from the edge often?
Do you use your double jump to escape combos?
Do you stall and try and buy yourself time in the air?
Do you recovery the same way, same trajectory, etc all the time?

These are common examples. A smart player will recognize a bad habit (ex, using your dj to escape a combo/juggle) pretty quickly and the result is something like... they land a grab/uthrow/utilt/launcher/whatever, wait a split second before acting, you double jump as planned, you get juggled across stage and can't do jack to escape or mix up your recovery, rinse repeat and you lose by 3 stocks.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
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There will most likely always be someone better than you. So you'll always have something to learn.

My best advice is to play lame. If you don't quite know what kind of risks you can take, or how much you should respect your opponent, then dash dance camp until you have a solid read and just observe.

Use platforms to your advantage. Don't just jump down from them with an attack constantly. Maneuver around them until your opponent gets frustrated.

Do safe attacks and see how your opponent reacts to changes in spacing and common approaches. Do they shield? Do they tilt/jump at you? Do they spot dodge?

Also I find it best to never believe anything you think you "know." Everything has a chance of being wrong. Learn everything back from the ground up so you can apply things that will only work against skilled players, and stop bad habits from forming.
 

Blarg I'm Dead

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Messages
105
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^another excellent post.

You have 8 entire minutes, use them. For example fox can ran away and laser camp till you think of a good idea or learn the opponents habits better. Some habits aren't exactly bad but they can be punished. Some players spot dodge more often than just simply blocking the hit, some players only approach with specific moves at certain spacing, none of these habits are inherently bad but you can use them to make the prediction aspect of the game much simpler.
 
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