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Landing Lag: A solution?

Kamiko

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I never liked the idea of L-canceling, but there's no denying the problems with excessive landing lag. However, I completely understand the reason it exists. So what can be done about it?

How about this: the frames of any given aerial's landing lag can tick away in the background when the move is performed. When the player touches the ground, only the remaining frames will be applied as a recovery animation. This way, a player who lands with only a frame or two left of an attack's animation can get right back into action. Meanwhile, a stab-happy Link player who uses his downward aerial just before hitting the ground will be punished for it.

Would something like this work, or am I overlooking something?
 

D-idara

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I never liked the idea of L-canceling, but there's no denying the problems with excessive landing lag. However, I completely understand the reason it exists. So what can be done about it?

How about this: the frames of any given aerial's landing lag can tick away in the background when the move is performed. When the player touches the ground, only the remaining frames will be applied as a recovery animation. This way, a player who lands with only a frame or two left of an attack's animation can get right back into action. Meanwhile, a stab-happy Link player who uses his downward aerial just before hitting the ground will be punished for it.

Would something like this work, or am I overlooking something?
This is actually...genius!!!
 

Ulevo

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I actually like this idea, as it is very intuitive to how you think it should work, but it also allows for excellent character depth and interaction while also making character balance easier to work with.

@ ryuu seika ryuu seika , the way moves have always worked is that, say an aerial moves duration lasts 20 frames with 15 frames of landing lag, if you land on the 19th frame, it will still give you the full 15 frames of lag, meaning the whole duration of the attack cost you 34 frames. If you were to land on frame 1 of the attack, you'd also suffer 15 frames of lag, meaning it cost you 16 frames. The landing lag is not dynamic based on when you landed during the aerials duration.
 
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The Real Gamer

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On paper this sounds like a nice idea but without any recovery frames every aerial would be virtually lagless if spaced/timed correctly. In terms of balance this would really mess things up since certain characters could get away with spamming SHFF aerials without having to worry about being punished for it.

I think a certain degree of recovery frames are necessary to keep certain moves in check.
 

Kamiko

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On paper this sounds like a nice idea but without any recovery frames every aerial would be virtually lagless if spaced/timed correctly. In terms of balance this would really mess things up since certain characters could get away with spamming SHFF aerials without having to worry about being punished for it.

I think a certain degree of recovery frames are necessary to keep certain moves in check.
Are you suggesting that if someone attacks at any point in time while airborne, they should suffer from lag even if it takes them literally an hour to touch the ground afterwords? Anyone who has returned to their normal falling animation has no reason to deal with that. I hope I'm misunderstanding what you said.
 

ryuu seika

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@The Real Gamer seems to have misinterpreted your suggestion is all.
TRG, the idea is not that there would be no lag at all, it's that the lag would last a fixed time and have no effect when in affect in mid air. This means that you could potentially spam aerials and only have the lag from the last one or that you could use an aerial, fall slowly and have little to no lag if you spent long enough in the air but it does not, under any circumstances, mean that traditional SHFFed moves will be lagless. Infact, they would probably have more lag.
 

The Real Gamer

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Are you suggesting that if someone attacks at any point in time while airborne, they should suffer from lag even if it takes them literally an hour to touch the ground afterwords? Anyone who has returned to their normal falling animation has no reason to deal with that. I hope I'm misunderstanding what you said.
No no no.

What I'm trying to say is that in the system your proposing, aerials with a short duration window would instantly become god-tier since the player could SHFF them all day without any commitment needed. If a character lacks quick aerials that can instantly be cancelled after a SHFF they are put at a huge disadvantage since all of their aerials require much more commitment.

I'm only proposing that certain moves need a bit of landing lag to keep certain characters in check.

Or on the flip side the duration window for certain aerials could be increased to prevent "lagless" SHFF aerials from being a thing.
 
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Kamiko

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No no no.

What I'm trying to say is that in the system your proposing, aerials with a short duration window would instantly become god-tier since the player could SHFF them all day without any commitment needed. If a character lacks quick aerials that can instantly be cancelled after a SHFF they are put at a huge disadvantage since all of their aerials require much more commitment.

I'm only proposing that certain moves need a bit of landing lag to keep certain characters in check.

Or on the flip side the duration window for certain aerials could be increased to prevent "lagless" SHFF aerials from being a thing.
Yeah, that's the kind of thing that would have to happen (the underlined part). But that's just a normal part of balancing, those kinds of moves would be a problem anyway. Increasing fall speed would help with that though.
 
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The Real Gamer

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Overall I like your suggestion much more than the system we currently have in place I just think some adjustments would be needed to prevent certain characters from benefiting too much.
 

Ulevo

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Overall I like your suggestion much more than the system we currently have in place I just think some adjustments would be needed to prevent certain characters from benefiting too much.
You wouldn't necessarily have to have it in such a way that the landing lag you receive is based on the amount of frames left in the aerials animation on a 1:1 ratio, you could have a preset minimum amount of frames of lag you have to have regardless if you did it perfectly. This would need to be fine tuned and talored to each specific character. It would be like a character specific L-Cancelling system, instead it would require less arbitrary input and more understanding of the character either from a frame and knowledge perspective or from an intuitive perspective while having the benefit of involving associated choice on when and how to use it.
 
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smashbro29

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Just make them all get up faster on average.

Melee L-cancel speeds (barring some of the instant ones) without the extra input.

Because while this makes sense, it's no fun. You'd have to get serious height to make an aerial worth it.
 

Phaazoid

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While I like your suggestion, I have some tweaks in mind, some of which get a bit technical. I was thinking it through, when I realized that there was actually a much simpler solution, one that had been staring us in the face this whole time. If we remove all platforms, there will be no place to land, and therefore, the issue of landing lag will become a non-issue. I may not have actually read the first post at all.
 

Kamiko

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Just make them all get up faster on average.

Melee L-cancel speeds (barring some of the instant ones) without the extra input.

Because while this makes sense, it's no fun. You'd have to get serious height to make an aerial worth it.
I don't see why we can't have both if it's needed. As long as you don't wait until right before htting the ground, there shouldn't be a problem.
 

smashbro29

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I don't see why we can't have both if it's needed. As long as you don't wait until right before htting the ground, there shouldn't be a problem.
if we had both then a move with 15 frames of end lag would now have 7-8 frames default and even less the higher up you start?

Also why are we penalizing aerials done close to the ground? I don't see the reasoning behind it.
 

Kamiko

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if we had both then a move with 15 frames of end lag would now have 7-8 frames default and even less the higher up you start?

Also why are we penalizing aerials done close to the ground? I don't see the reasoning behind it.
Have you ever seen the flurries of attacks you can do in Megaman Zero? If not, imagine a short hopped aerial followed immediately by a ground attack, done over and over in rapid succession. That's why that lag exists.
 

smashbro29

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Have you ever seen the flurries of attacks you can do in Megaman Zero? If not, imagine a short hopped aerial followed immediately by a ground attack, done over and over in rapid succession. That's why that lag exists.
Oh my god are you saying the game might actually be fast and offensive? We can't have that! It should be boring!
 

Ulevo

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Just make them all get up faster on average.

Melee L-cancel speeds (barring some of the instant ones) without the extra input.

Because while this makes sense, it's no fun. You'd have to get serious height to make an aerial worth it.
You wouldn't for every aerial if you apply my suggestion and talor it to characters based on the values of the aerial.

What this does is create a risk and reward system with specific aerial attacks. Certain aerials would and should be safe regardless, but others would be more involved in the system. This would create really interesting interactions with things like like Pikachu's dair, or attacks that have strong and soft hit box properties. It will also change how the combo game works.
 

Big-Cat

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Here's what I'm noticing with aerials this time around.

If the aerial has launching capabilities, aka vertical knockback, on standing opponents, the move has considerable landing recovery. This does not apply if these aerials that finish their animations before landing. It may also apply to killing aerials like Zelda's kicks and Capt. Falcon's Knee.

Aerials that may be used primarily as pokes, combo fillers, etc. are subject to short recovery when landing regardless of height. There may be exceptions depending on the move. IIRC, Marth's FAir has considerable landing recovery.

What a lot of people don't seem to realize is two things. The first is that there is a shift to ground based fighting. The other is that most people here are not considering the risk:reward ratio on aerials.
 
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Senario

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I never liked the idea of L-canceling, but there's no denying the problems with excessive landing lag. However, I completely understand the reason it exists. So what can be done about it?

How about this: the frames of any given aerial's landing lag can tick away in the background when the move is performed. When the player touches the ground, only the remaining frames will be applied as a recovery animation. This way, a player who lands with only a frame or two left of an attack's animation can get right back into action. Meanwhile, a stab-happy Link player who uses his downward aerial just before hitting the ground will be punished for it.

Would something like this work, or am I overlooking something?
No, this wouldn't work for the same reason I think auto cancelling is a worse mechanic than l cancelling It. It punishes those who wish to speed up the game with a quick air move and it essentially has no choice in why you do it you just do when you can. is highly hidden and restricting what frames it is possible to get low landing lag is just bad design since it is even more hidden. Not only that, it is something a casual player would actively have to learn and obviously wouldn't know about beforehand. It is better to just decrease landing lag across the board so it satisfies competitive play and is very accessible to casual play.
 

Khao

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I don't like it.

Think of the aerials that last last a long time, if you touch the groud early while doing them, the lag would be overly long to the point it would feel like the game's broken and glitchy, imagine doing Mario's fair and touching the floor early, the recovery time something like that would have would be absolutely nonsensical. Link's dair would become pretty much useless, so would stuff that hit for a long time, like Snake's nair, what would the recovery animation for those moves even look like if they had to last that long? Or how about the attacks that don't have a "real" set lenght, like Zero Suit Samus's dair?

This would only really work if every aerial in the game was a single short attack.

Also, if it worked like this, why bother to even touch the floor in the first place? you might as well just wait for your aerial to finish, it'll take exactly as long.
 
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Dr. James Rustles

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I think this would only widen the gap between useful and useless moves. Many of you seem ignorant of the aerial time on many attacks, like Falco's fair. With fast falling it would make many nairs ineffectual combo pieces.

@ Khao Khao Correct. Snake would be on the ground for around two seconds after a fast fall.
 
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Ulevo

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I don't like it.

Think of the aerials that last last a long time, if you touch the groud early while doing them, the lag would be overly long to the point it would feel like the game's broken and glitchy, imagine doing Mario's fair and touching the floor early, the recovery time something like that would have would be absolutely nonsensical. Link's dair would become pretty much useless, so would stuff that hit for a long time, like Snake's nair. Or how about the attacks that don't have a "real" set lenght, like Zero Suit Samus's dair?

This would only really work if every aerial in the game was a single short attack.
I'm in class right now so I can't elaborate as extensively as I'd like to, but you're wrong about how you're interpreting this idea. That's not really what would take place. I'll go in to detail in a bit.

I think this would only widen the gap between useful and useless moves. Many of you seem ignorant of the aerial time on many attacks, like Falco's fair. With fast falling it would make many nairs ineffectual combo pieces.

@ Khao Khao Correct. Snake would be on the ground for around two seconds after a fast fall.
Same with this.
 
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Khao

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I'm in class right now so I can't elaborate as extensively as I'd like to, but you're wrong about how you're interpreting this idea. That's not really what would take place. I'll go in to detail in a bit.
****, no wait, think I get it now.

Basically, attacks have the same "base" lag as they do now, except the lag's faster the later you cancel them, right?

'Cause that makes a lot more sense.
 

Hitzel

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How about these possibilities:

  • No/little landing lag, but blocking an aerial pushes players away from each other to prevent infinite blockstrings.
  • Landing lag can be canceled by attacks and other actions, but not by jumping. This prevents an endless flurry of aerials but doesn't punish players for attacking.
  • No/little landing lag, but blocked attacks have less hitstun and therefore have to be spaced properly to be safe.
Honestly, I don't see the big deal about everything having zero landing lag. Every other fighting game on the planet has it and there's no problems. I know that Smash is its own game, but still, just because past Smash games had L-canceling doesn't mean you can't think of jumping attacks ONLY in the context of L-canceling. C'mon guys...
 
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JoeInky

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I've already made a post about what I think would be the best solution for landing lag on aerials so I'm just going to repost it here:

L-Cancelling, I'm going to flat out say it: I hate L-Cancelling. I always get the timing wrong for the button press, but why should it need to be a button press in the first place when it's something that has no benefit to not doing it? I don't think they should flat out reduce landing lag on all aerial attacks either (they should definitely keep it on air-dodging though, that change is brilliant), I think they should make it so that if your attacks either connect with a player or a shield (with a good enough amount of shield stun so that it's actually safe), the move will be lag cancelled when you land, but if you whiff because the other person reads it and dodges, then you have the increased landing lag to allow for a punish.

This means you can still have your more fluid combo game when you connect or it gives you more opportunity to apply shield pressure, but if you **** up then the other person has an opportunity to capitalise on it, and since aerials would be more safe as an approach tool then, you could do stuff like just a running short hop to bait the spot dodge and punish that, or if the other players reads correctly they could grab you and go for a counter punish. I think it could work really well like that.
I prefer that than your method just because it gives a you a little more in terms of options instead of just having it automatically do it all the time.
 

FallofBrawl

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Pretty good system, love it!
I have another idea though, how about incorporating special dodges, for example if Link is caught up in the frames while he is removing his sword from the ground from a down air, he can press the guard button at the exact time his opponent strikes him, which will make Link avoid all or half damage and roll around his opponent to counter-strike. A little hectic and Dragon Ball-esque with teleportations but it can work. It would require extreme precision
 

RODO

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On paper this sounds like a nice idea but without any recovery frames every aerial would be virtually lagless if spaced/timed correctly. In terms of balance this would really mess things up since certain characters could get away with spamming SHFF aerials without having to worry about being punished for it.

I think a certain degree of recovery frames are necessary to keep certain moves in check.
So basically how every aerial in Melee was virtually lagless if you L-cancelled? Not trying to be smart but I thought that was the whole point of trying to fix the lag issue.
 

Ulevo

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Okay, so. Here's why I think this idea is cool, and why I think it is a great mechanic idea.

Currently right now the problem with aerials is that their power and usefulness is largely dependent on the amount of landing lag they retain when you land. This is to such a degree that aerials like Ike's forward air, despite having incredible power and properties (huge hit box, disjointed, offensive and defensive properties, good damage, KO's) is relegated to being a downside to the character as opposed to an asset simply because landing with it makes you vulnerable. What this means is that if you can't L-Cancel your aerials, your aerials don't autocancel, and if they don't have naturally low base landing lag, they're not reliable tools to use for your air-to-ground or ground-to-air game, and you as a player are punished or discouraged from them. To me this is a big problem because one of Smashes biggest hallmarks compared to other fighters is the autonomy and control you have in the air, and I don't think things should discourage you from using aerial play, tools, or maneuvers.

Now, to clarify to anyone who didn't understand this suggestion properly, I'm going to use Ike again as an example, specifically with his down air.

Ike's dair has a base landing lag of 29 frames, or roughly 1/2 a second. This is forever in fighting game time. We'll call this landing lag the "base" lag. Ike's down air also has an animation duration of 55 frames, but we'll say 1 full second or 60 frames for simplicity. Ike's hitbox comes out on frame 16-30 with the strong hit box that spikes presumably on the 16th frame, so kinda on roughly about 1/3 of the way through the full duration. I know he has auto cancel frames, but let's ignore this for now and pretend he doesn't.

Ideally in a scenario where you could L-Cancel Ike's dair, you would want to do it shortly after frame 16 from a short hop to maximize your safety as well as your ability to react quickly because the hitbox would remain out just prior to you landing. Unfortunately, without L-Cancelling, the base lag is too high to warrant doing this. L-Cancelling reduces the landing lag by half, so that would be about 15 frames.

What this suggestion suggests to do is that if you were to use Ike's down air and land on frame 1, you would incur a large amount of landing lag, while if you landing on frame 55, you would incur very little to no landing lag. What I believe an interesting proposition would be is to have the the amount of frames that have already passed act as the amount of frames that are reduced from the aerials landing lag based on a percentage, and up to a cap. So for instance, if Ike's dair lasts 60 frames and you land on frame 30, that's half the duration. So for the landing lag, which is 30 frames, we reduce half of that landing lag from the total, which would be 15. If Ike lands on frame 45, that would be a 75% reduction in landing lag, which would give the move 8 frames of landing lag. To avoid aerials being virtually lagless from being used too high up or for too long in the air prior to landing but still landing during their animation, you could use a % threshold, like 75%, to ensure that Ike's down air could only ever be 8 frames short.

What this does is it gives Ike an interesting way to utilize his dair in a multitude of ways. For instance, let's say you're in melee range of your opponent, and you're in your shield. You plan to use an out of shield dair because you predict your opponent is going to spot dodge in fear of you going on the offensive so close to him, and you want to push him with an out of shield aerial. With the way Ike's dair currently works, you would need to hit the strong part of the dair to even remotely justify using this as an option, not just because of how unsafe it is, but because the follow up isn't there thanks to you incurring nearly half a second of lag no matter how you use it or when you use it in the air. With this change in mechanics though, you could opt to go for a soft or early dair, to ensure you land on the ground later while you stay in the air suspended with the weak hit box. This will punish the spot dodge while also ensuring that if you manage to hit him, you have a follow up after because the landing lag will be much shorter. However, because Ike's dair comes out on frame 16, if you account for the extra air time you have until you land while hitting with the strong hit box, you might land on say, frame 20. That would be 33% or 1/3 reduction in landing lag, which would be only 20 frames. Given how much hit stun Ike's dair has, if you were to opt to do that, you could potentially still have a combo or kill set up. Neither is better or worse than the other overall, it just depends on what your needs are and what you decide to do in this specific situation.

This has a ton of application because there are a lot of aerials with unique properties and kinds of uses. You have things like Pikachu's dair with a hit box in the air while also having a hit box when they land. You have dive kick aerials. You have aerials with multihit hitboxes. You have extremely fast aerials. You have aerials that act like semi-spikes like Pikachu's tail flip or Ganondorfs uair, or combo starters like Marios Uair. You have pop up spikes like Falcos dair. There's a huge array of possibilities here.

What this change essentially allows for is it allows for a use for the slower aerials that still have interesting attributes and uses, but without having them be equivalent or better than the aerials that comprise of little landing lag that might be your bread and butter.

Certain aerials like say, Ike's back air, should have little landing lag regardless because it's simply a bread and butter move. And for all intents and purposes, this change would mean very little to Ike's back air. But what this could do for his dair, his up air, and his fair is incredible. Some characters might not care at all, like Meta Knight, who naturally have low lag on all their aerials. But other characters would benefit tremendously from this while still being the slower characters iconic to their theme and design.

What's also wonderful about this is that it is intuitive. It makes sense to the player to understand that if they take longer in the air with the attack, it will be less time on the ground when they land, and vice versa. While there's a math behind it, you wouldn't necessarily need to know the math to apply it.
 
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Johnknight1

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Roughly half of the aerials have lagless, including all of the best ones.

I don't see why it's such a big problem to you people.

You can literally pillar with Fox or up tilt into z-Air all day with Toon Link, or do all kinds of crap with Samus.

If you learn to adapt to the physics, and implement strategies from all games (mostly 64) and techniques from all games (especially Brawl) and the feel of all games (especially Melee) and a bit of games like Street Fighter mixed in, you should learn how to win fairly quickly.

I know I did.
 

Ulevo

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Roughly half of the aerials have lagless, including all of the best ones.

I don't see why it's such a big problem to you people.

You can literally pillar with Fox or up tilt into z-Air all day with Toon Link, or do all kinds of crap with Samus.

If you learn to adapt to the physics, and implement strategies from all games (mostly 64) and techniques from all games (especially Brawl) and the feel of all games (especially Melee) and a bit of games like Street Fighter mixed in, you should learn how to win fairly quickly.

I know I did.
We're not talking about winning. We're talking about creating and designing an ideal system for Smash.
 

Big-Cat

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Ulevo, your idea is overly complicated and convoluted.
 
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Here's what I'm noticing with aerials this time around.

If the aerial has launching capabilities, aka vertical knockback, on standing opponents, the move has considerable landing recovery. This does not apply if these aerials that finish their animations before landing. It may also apply to killing aerials like Zelda's kicks and Capt. Falcon's Knee.

Aerials that may be used primarily as pokes, combo fillers, etc. are subject to short recovery when landing regardless of height. There may be exceptions depending on the move. IIRC, Marth's FAir has considerable landing recovery.

What a lot of people don't seem to realize is two things. The first is that there is a shift to ground based fighting. The other is that most people here are not considering the risk:reward ratio on aerials.

I agree. Everyone is approaching the game in the same fashion as the previous games without considering that aerials may serve as finishers and follow ups from the ground. While Melee did have this, grounded approaches did little at low percents, and smash attacks weren't the most viable kill method with all characters. There are some exceptions to this with characters like Fox and Sheik who are strong on the ground and have legitimate ground to air / ground to ground follow ups, but not all characters can safely approach without aerials. Perhaps smash 4 will function in such a way that characters can utilize moves that keep a character stunned when grounded, like how Wii Fit Trainers jab forces the opponent into the ground, so you can jab series > backward F-tilt> Bair. Or you can do a Dair instead to bounce the opponent into the ground and back up into another aerial attack.

I know this is all theory for the most part but I can see things potentially leaning in this direction.
 
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