L-Canceling

[sunshinesan]

How would you guys warm up to a new mechanic that added a cost to l-canceling in the new game? i.e. a max number of cancels that can be done with one stock/earning them through dealing damage, or taking a stock? Something similar to Blazblue's rapid cancel (which used a chunk of the super meter.)

I like L-canceling because it speeds up the game and gives you more combo potential, but I don't like how there is no strategic usage and it's just muscle memory out of an aerial/SHFFL 99% of the time. I figure Brawl got rid of it to simplify the game for beginners, but also it might have had merit as a design choice.

Though getting rid of it in Brawl but didn't fix how endlaggy most aerials were, it's like Sakurai got rid of a shoddy solution to a problem but forgot the problem was more of an issue than the shoddy solution itself.

 

[The Real Gamer]

L-Canceling isn't a necessary mechanic needed to speed up the game.

All that needs to be done is decreasing the amount of endlag after an aereal is performed regardless if the L/R buttons are pushed or not. In other words make every areal have the same endlag of a properly L-Canceled move, without the button input needed.

That way the game maintains its speed without having to add an unnecessary input barrier.

 

[Empyrean]

I think for a new game in the series a universal reduction of landing lag would be the best option, like TRG said. I personally would be interested in seeing how the gameplay would turn out if 100% of the lag was cancelled, à la Smash 64, but that will probably not happen. A 50% reduction like in Melee would be amazing. It's the one mechanic I would like too see implemented more than any other (now that hitstun cancelling is likely not returning).

But in the event l-cancelling returns as an additional input, I wouldn't be disappointed in the slightest. It's probably one of the easiest tech in Smash, and it literally took me 2-3 days to get it down (note that I started as a Brawl player too). It also wouldn't be entirely out of the realm of possibility, since 2 out of the 3 previous titles had some sort manual lag cancelling, and considering the implied direction he is taking this time around to appeal more to hardcores.

 

[Renji64]

I wouldn't mind if it came back i don't mind getting it down and having more combo potential. Idk what to expect from smash 4 atm.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wouldn't mind if it came back i don't mind getting it down and having more combo potential. Idk what to expect from smash 4 atm.

Same. I found it very fun to use, and it didn't have an extreme amount of effect on any match either(it's not on Wavedashing's level). It's not a bad thing when a player has to keep on their toes, imo.

I am not a fan of the "auto cancel", since it takes control away from the player. I'd like to practice and perfect it on my own. I've done pretty well with that. I don't think it's that severely hard to master that throwing it away actually adds anything to the game. Also, I find advanced techs like this really fun and found that it made my SSB(64/Melee) experience highly enjoyable. Brawl's... did not. It didn't even remove the same amount of lag equally among characters, so it wasn't even partially balanced.

I can understand some preferring the auto so they don't have to concentrate on it. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind it being a toggle option as is. The players who like it can keep it via their Name. Not sure it'd be that easy to toggle, but eh.

 

[Ulevo]

I hope it comes back. It doesn't matter if it doesn't add a layer of competitive depth to the game. Not every inclusion in a fighter has to in order to justify its existence, and that's something people who are against L-Cancelling need to come to realize. From a design perspective, it was a satisfying mechanic that rewarded the player and felt good to be able to execute despite being something relatively simple to do.

 

[LancerStaff]

Your ideas sound pretty complicated for Smash Bros... Things should be simple and easy.

 

[D-idara]

I think for a new game in the series a universal reduction of landing lag would be the best option, like TRG said. I personally would be interested in seeing how the gameplay would turn out if 100% of the lag was cancelled, à la Smash 64, but that will probably not happen. A 50% reduction like in Melee would be amazing. It's the one mechanic I would like too see implemented more than any other (now that hitstun cancelling is likely not returning).

But in the event l-cancelling returns as an additional input, I wouldn't be disappointed in the slightest. It's probably one of the easiest tech in Smash, and it literally took me 2-3 days to get it down (note that I started as a Brawl player too). It also wouldn't be entirely out of the realm of possibility, since 2 out of the 3 previous titles had some sort manual lag cancelling, and considering the implied direction he is taking this time around to appeal more to hardcores.

No. No L-Cancel.

 

[Pazzo.]

L-Canceling isn't a necessary mechanic needed speed up the game.

All that needs to be done is decreasing the amount of endlag after an aereal is performed regardless if the L/R buttons are pushed or not. In other words make every areal have the same endlag of a properly L-Canceled move, without the button input needed.

That way the game maintains its speed without having to add an unnecessary input barrier.

I fully agree with this. Simple is King baby.

 

[Renji64]

So do people want anything that requires some form or learning or practice in smash at all?:

 

[Renji64]

Same. I found it very fun to use, and it didn't have an extreme amount of effect on any match either(it's not on Wavedashing's level). It's not a bad thing when a player has to keep on their toes, imo.

I am not a fan of the "auto cancel", since it takes control away from the player. I'd like to practice and perfect it on my own. I've done pretty well with that. I don't think it's that severely hard to master that throwing it away actually adds anything to the game. Also, I find advanced techs like this really fun and found that it made my SSB(64/Melee) experience highly enjoyable. Brawl's... did not. It didn't even remove the same amount of lag equally among characters, so it wasn't even partially balanced.

I can understand some preferring the auto so they don't have to concentrate on it. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind it being a toggle option as is. The players who like it can keep it via their Name. Not sure it'd be that easy to toggle, but eh.

I also like the sense of mastery and learning the timing with different characters gives you something to work towards. I'm for more options in general to come back if not i understand at the same time.

 

[LancerStaff]

So do people want anything that requires some form or learning or practice in smash at all?:

Yes, learning how to read your opponent and perform character specific techs is enough though.

 

[D-idara]

I hope it comes back. It doesn't matter if it doesn't add a layer of competitive depth to the game. Not every inclusion in a fighter has to in order to justify its existence, and that's something people who are against L-Cancelling need to come to realize. From a design perspective, it was a satisfying mechanic that rewarded the player and felt good to be able to execute despite being something relatively simple to do.

Look at me! I can do L-Cancel, the people who can't do it aren't good, it doesn't serve only to inflate my competitive ego!

 

[Ulevo]

So do people want anything that requires some form or learning or practice in smash at all?:

No. Smash is really hard and complicated to play. I can't wrap my head around pressing down to fast fall, using the C-Stick for stronger attacks, and the fact that there are 3 different ways to jump on the GC controller.

Look at me! I can do L-Cancel, the people who can't do it aren't good, it doesn't serve only to inflate my competitive ego!

You don't need to have a self serving attitude in order to appreciate mechanics that make you feel rewarded. You know why the bulls eye in a dart board is so small? It isn't to make everyone who throws darts feel incompetent. It's to reward people who actually know what hard work is. Not that L-Cancelling is hard to begin with.

I don't expect someone who doesn't even care about competitive play to have a credible opinion on this though.

 

[Renji64]

Yes, learning how to read your opponent and perform character specific techs is enough though.

I feel ya i do understand the plus of making things simpler less mistakes and ect. I still think smash should require practice to be good at things as well.

Look at me! I can do L-Cancel, the people who can't do it aren't good, it doesn't serve only to inflate my competitive ego!

you sound like a person who can't even beat a level 9 cpu. It isn't about ego learning and mastering something is a fun aspect of the game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I also like the sense of mastery and learning the timing with different characters gives you something to work towards. I'm for more options in general to come back if not i understand at the same time.

While Brawl had a decent amount, so did 64. Melee itself felt a little too high, so I think 64 and Brawl's options were good enough. Brawl had great defensive options, and L-Cancelling arguably helps you set up for more attacks, since if you miss, you aren't hurt for long.

Again, I can understand some not preferring it, but I still feels it adds a fun layer to the game that auto-cancel lacks. It's one of the few advanced techs that are easy to do, but pretty rewarding overall.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Ganondorf has been praying to the god L cancelling comes back

 

[sunshinesan]

Your ideas sound pretty complicated for Smash Bros... Things should be simple and easy.

It's not really complicated, but for Smash's standards, maybe. I was originally against Lucario's Aura mechanic, as well as type-weaknesses, as I felt it was un-smashlike, but I've warmed up to them, and welcome things like Little Mac's meter, as long as it's not overly complex, it might spice up the bland... yet solid Smash formula.

 

[Fuqua]

I always enjoyed L-cancelling, it made combos more satisfying to execute. Honestly i think if L-cancel were to return I wouldn’t change the way they function at all. If sakurai would introduced some sort of downside to L-cancel (like a meter or maybe 10 L-cancels per stock) it would achieve exactly what he was trying to avoid with the smash bros series which is making it too technical.

L-cancel, the way they function right now, strike a perfect balance for smash bros. If you are a casual player you won’t really care since the advantage from L-cancel isn’t humongous, if you are hardcore player you should be willing to learn this relatively easy technique which also makes the game more satisfying to play. And to the people saying L-cancel is pointless, obviously, sakurai doesn’t agree with you since it has been in 2 smash games already and wasn’t in brawl for obvious reasons. I think L-cancle has a good chance of returning in smash 4.

 

[Hayzie]

Smash Bros is already way too deep without L-cancel. I don't care for it. L-cancel is not the end-all/know-it-all factor for making you a competitive player. Smash was never designed around it. Fact.

But if it returns, I'm okay with that.

 

[Chimera]

So do people want anything that requires some form or learning or practice in smash at all?:

Yeah I'm sure l-canceling was the difference between n00b and professional.

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah I'm sure l-canceling was the difference between n00b and professional.

It wasn't, and that's kind of the reason he posted that.

 

[Chimera]

It wasn't, and that's kind of the reason he posted that.

I read it as an implication that people that don't care for l-canceling just don't want to have to practice. His next few posts confirm that.

 

[LancerStaff]

I always enjoyed L-cancelling, it made combos more satisfying to execute. Honestly i think if L-cancel were to return I wouldn’t change the way they function at all. If sakurai would introduced some sort of downside to L-cancel (like a meter or maybe 10 L-cancels per stock) it would achieve exactly what he was trying to avoid with the smash bros series which is making it too technical.

L-cancel, the way they function right now, strike a perfect balance for smash bros. If you are a casual player you won’t really care since the advantage from L-cancel isn’t humongous, if you are hardcore player you should be willing to learn this relatively easy technique which also makes the game more satisfying to play. And to the people saying L-cancel is pointless, obviously, sakurai doesn’t agree with you since it has been in 2 smash games already and wasn’t in brawl for obvious reasons. I think L-cancle has a good chance of returning in smash 4.

But L-canceling is just an arbitrary button press that's easy to do. The only reason people don't L-cancel is because they've simply never heard of it. It adds nothing to the game and flys in the face of SSB's signature simplicity. And honestly, do you think people would be asking for it had it not existed previously?

 

[mimgrim]

Eh. L-cancel is a slippery slop.

Both sides have valid points.

Personally. My problem with it isn't the execution factor, at least not anymore. I really don't mind it in that sense and am fine with either way. But rather that I feel it makes aerial attacks mind-numbingly safe. Personally I would like to see it worked into a risk VS reward factor to where you can only L-cancel if the attack makes contact, including contact on shield, so as to be able to try and follow up with the attack but makes whiffing out aerial on whim more risky. But that's just me.

But I'm also fine with how it works in Melee and PM, I definitely would like to see PM's white flash, or something akin to it, if L-cancel were to return, or if there were to just become less lag in general. I can go either way.

 

[Miles Pierre]

Yeah I'm sure l-canceling was the difference between n00b and professional.

No, but if you watched the smash bros documentary they talk about how L-canceling was the difference between winning and losing when they were first discovering how to play competitively. All things equal If one guy can attack quicker than another guy then he has the upper hand. Obviously an L-canceling n00b is not going to beat a pro who doesn't L-cancel but that's not the point. It was an important mechanic that offered the potential for being a faster player which is potential for being a better player.

On the subject of the mechanic returning I hope it does return ... It was satisfying to do (especially with links dair) but if I'm going to be honest I'd rather have it return automated just to speed up the entire game. If not though Id be fine with it coming back just as it was in melee.

 

[smashbro29]

I read it as an implication that people that don't care for l-canceling just don't want to have to practice. His next few posts confirm that.

I practiced it, I can do it consistently and the minor feeling of superiority over others who can't aside it is ****ing pointless.

I hope it never comes back.

 

[Tremendo Dude]

The problem isn't that L-cancel adds too much depth or anything silly like that. The problem is that it doesn't add much depth at all, and only serves to cut a jagged line on the skill curve. The advantage gained from L-canceling is not by any means a small one. If you don't know it exists, you will be devastated by those who do. It adds one more thing for new players to have to master when they start getting into the world of smash bros. It's also a basic, all-encompasing developer-intended technique that can only be learned through word of mouth, since the only time it was revealed by the developers was not in the manual, but in a tiny feature page for the original Smash Bros that has long been taken off the net.

I don't mind at all if L-Cancel doesn't see a return in the new game, so long as the landing animations for aerial attacks are fast enough to keep the game interesting (like Melee's or Project M's L-Cancel effect). I doubt the development team will consider bringing it back, but if it does come back I hope they at least stick it in the manual or an in-game video guide for all the newcomers to the smash world.

 

[Ulevo]

Eh. L-cancel is a slippery slop.

Both sides have valid points.

Personally. My problem with it isn't the execution factor, at least not anymore. I really don't mind it in that sense and am fine with either way. But rather that I feel it makes aerial attacks mind-numbingly safe. Personally I would like to see it worked into a risk VS reward factor to where you can only L-cancel if the attack makes contact, including contact on shield, so as to be able to try and follow up with the attack but makes whiffing out aerial on whim more risky. But that's just me.

But I'm also fine with how it works in Melee and PM, I definitely would like to see PM's white flash, or something akin to it, if L-cancel were to return, or if there were to just become less lag in general. I can go either way.

I'm not sure how you feel it is too safe. L-Cancelling or no L-Cancelling, you need to space properly regardless. If you don't want to get grabbed, shined, or hit with out of shield options, you need to cross up or space properly on someones shield. The only difference L-Cancelling will make is that it just creates an even bigger window to punish if you don't, and that doesn't mean anything once you're used to the game. The exception to this would be specific instances in Melee and Project M, like dealing with shine pressure from spacies. But universally this holds true.

 

[Miles Pierre]

But L-canceling is just an arbitrary button press that's easy to do. The only reason people don't L-cancel is because they've simply never heard of it. It adds nothing to the game and flys in the face of SSB's signature simplicity. And honestly, do you think people would be asking for it had it not existed previously?

Well none of that is true at all. L- canceling doesn't fly in the face of SSB's simplicity at all. Neither does wave dashing, DI, or any other advanced tech. SSB works because its similar to an onion. Very simple for a player to pick up and play but has depth to it. Other layers that can be discovered and nurtured if you take the time to invest yourself. It absolutely adds something to the game. I'll use the most obvious example. Play with link in melee. Perform a dair without hitting an opponent. Now perform that same move and L-cancel. The lag without L-cancing is substantial. L-canceling that move allows you to quickly go on the offensive or defensive without being completely open to attack -- or in other words -- L-canceling makes aerials safer (not safe, but safer) to perform...

 

[mimgrim]

I'm not sure how you feel it is too safe. L-Cancelling or no L-Cancelling, you need to space properly regardless. If you don't want to get grabbed, shined, or hit with out of shield options, you need to cross up or space properly on someones shield. The only difference L-Cancelling will make is that it just creates an even bigger window to punish if you don't, and that doesn't mean anything once you're used to the game. The exception to this would be specific instances in Melee and Project M, like dealing with shine pressure from spacies. But universally this holds true.

Well at least someone finally brought up a valid argument against my idea that I didn't think of and can agree with.

But I would still argue that L-cancel makes the spacing of an aerial a a bit more lenient since the lag is reduced and enables the play to act more quickly out of it. However, other then that I would say I have to agree on with you in that it wouldn't matter in the end if you are use to the game, I hadn't thought of it like that.

Still don;t have that strong of an opinion on how L-cancel as is should be done. As I think both sides have valid points and could thus go either way of keeping as it is, but at least adding the white flash that PM has as it is super helpful, or just reduce lag in general, like how other fighting games do it because as far as I know other fighting games don't have something akin to L-cancel in terms of reducing landing lag.

 

[Ulevo]

Apparently that white flash featured in Project M was actually in the Japanese test versions for Melee. Not sure why they removed it.

 

[Renji64]

Apparently that white flash featured in Project M was actually in the Japanese test versions for Melee. Not sure why they removed it.

I thought that was a good idea some type visual nod to make sure you are doing it right.

 

[Morbi]

So do people want anything that requires some form or learning or practice in smash at all?:

I sure know that I do not want anything that requires any form of learning or practice. It is a party-game for muh.

 

[smashbroskilla]

I sure know that I do not want anything that requires any form of learning or practice. It is a party-game for muh.

"Come on Dewey, join the party"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnZh1fgk8wk

I think everyone has practiced or learned the game in some way. When I first played the game I didn't know you couldn't walk off the stage. I wasn't used to anything besides life bars and meters. I learned not to do that anymore. I think the word "practice" or "learning" is all relative to every individual.

 

[Morbi]

"Come on Dewey, join the party"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnZh1fgk8wk

I think everyone has practiced or learned the game in some way. When I first played the game I didn't know you couldn't walk off the stage. I wasn't used to anything besides life bars and meters. I learned not to do that anymore. I think the word "practice" or "learning" is all relative to every individual.

When I first played Smash? I thought that the increasing percentage was health, I thought I was healing my opponent. I was only 4 or 5, a very incompetent 4 or 5 year old.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I prefer the game be based on strategical gameplay as opposed to technical skill. That said L-canceling is not very technical so I don't really care either way.

 

[smashbroskilla]

When I first played Smash? I thought that the increasing percentage was health, I thought I was healing my opponent. I was only 4 or 5, a very incompetent 4 or 5 year old.

Yea but you still learned though. You adapted to becoming a better player. I have a friend I've been playing smash with since the first one. He's really good without wave dashing or L(R) cancelling. I choose to L cancel and wavedash. I like bowser, ganon, captain falcon. Playing characters like these against spacies you have to L cancel otherwise you're in big trouble. L cancelling isn;t nearly as hard as wave dashing with some characters. I think if everyone who spent even only 5 minutes attempting it and learning it, you wouldn't think it's that big of a deal.

 

[Morbi]

Yea but you still learned though. You adapted to becoming a better player. I have a friend I've been playing smash with since the first one. He's really good without wave dashing or L(R) cancelling. I choose to L cancel and wavedash. I like bowser, ganon, captain falcon. Playing characters like these against spacies you have to L cancel otherwise you're in big trouble. L cancelling isn;t nearly as hard as wave dashing with some characters. I think if everyone who spent even only 5 minutes attempting it and learning it, you wouldn't think it's that big of a deal.

I am not opposed to technical skill being included in the game; I always believe that it should be there for those who want to learn and become better, I have just never had that ambition. I feel as though no one would complain if there was a little tutorial on some of the advanced techniques, that would enable them to become an inherent aspect of the game in my opinion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I am not opposed to technical skill being included in the game; I always believe that it should be there for those who want to learn and become better, I have just never had that ambition. I feel as though no one would complain if there was a little tutorial on some of the advanced techniques, that would enable them to become an inherent aspect of the game in my opinion.

There is a small tutorial for basic stuff. It'd be cool if Sakurai made one for the more advanced techs(things like L-Cancel, Wavedashing, Footstool Jumps, Gliding, etc. Albeit, I know some of those are gone in 4, but it's the same type of thing)