Kirby in 1.04

[Unknownkid]

Vectoring was removed. We should discuss how this'll affect Kirby.

WAIT WHAT? You kidding?

 

[Asdioh]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dawn-of-a-new-day-vectoring-removed-in-patch-1-0-4.378709/
don't go TOO crazy yet, some are saying that it's still in, but weaker

personally i played a bunch of games and didn't notice anything

hey Reserved go play some games on smashladder, I went and lost to a Pikachu so you should too >=(

 

[Aunt Jemima]

http://smashboards.com/threads/dawn-of-a-new-day-vectoring-removed-in-patch-1-0-4.378709/
don't go TOO crazy yet, some are saying that it's still in, but weaker

personally i played a bunch of games and didn't notice anything

hey Reserved go play some games on smashladder, I went and lost to a Pikachu so you should too >=(

lol

 

[Unknownkid]

*Reads the thread*
That's swell. I guess Upsmash, Upper Cutter and Hammer Bash will kill sooner now (in theory).

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Actually, I just realized something.

This is especially to @ Asdioh ...

When we're chasing an opponent in the air to kill with Upper Cutter, they're most likely holding down to fast fall. While they're doing this, they're vectoring, whether intentional or not. Now that vectoring is removed...

OMG UPPER CUTTER TOO OP

 

[Asdioh]

...that reminds me, I did get some KOs with Kirby's upthrow today. They were on battlefield platforms, but I'm pretty sure they would have survived them by holding down previously.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

...that reminds me, I did get some KOs with Kirby's upthrow today. They were on battlefield platforms, but I'm pretty sure they would have survived them by holding down previously.

oh god

guys we need to test kill percents of a fresh U-Throw on battlefield platforms

 

[Unknownkid]

What was the percentage for killing Mario (can we still use Mario as a based? Apparently, his weight change or was that placebo?) before 1.04?

 

[SapphSabre777]

+ Feet-based attacks have a longer range

+ U-Smash is significantly faster, has a sour-spot that allows the move to reach farther

+ U-Air is much faster, has reduced landing lag, hitbox extended to hit BEHIND Kirby now.

+ Dash speed is increased

- Increased landing lag on N-Air, F-Air

- D-Air -> sourspotted U-Tilt no longer a combo (normal U-Tilt still is)

- Kirbycide KOs Kirby first now

* Hup Cancel is still in

Can confirm all the things, but the ll on nair and fair is still the same

First and foremost, my sincerest apologies for starting the placebo effect. I guess that is what happens when you wake up 4 o'clock in the morning to this news. I hope you all can forgive me.

Anyways, U-Smash and U-Air in terms of hitboxes...perhaps the vertical vectoring removal has helped them and that was what I was noticing when I was testing them, but finals and what not prevent me from going in-depth.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

@ Asdioh Is Sheik easier to fight in 1.0.4? I would die pretty fast against her, so I'm not sure how her nerfs have affected her.

Also, guys, we'll know for sure whether Kirby was changed or not later tonight, as we'll get the results from the Data Mine. However, one of the things I'm a bit worried about is that general changes (his actual moveset) and Copy Abilities will be combined, possibly resulting in mis-lead changes.

 

[Asdioh]

Oh yes. I was fighting one of the top Sheiks on smashladder and I kept winning, literally because his kill moves were so weak, aside from sweetspotted Upsmash and UpB, which are hard to hit with. I felt pretty bad for him. She still overwhelms Kirby with her crazy speed and lagless aerials, but the matchup is probably even, possibly even in Kirby's favor since he can actually kill.
What they really should have done was nerf the landing lag on some of her aerials, so she can't just mindlessly spam them forever and then hit you with jab or ftilt you for trying to punish them. But in compensation they should've buffed the KO power of her dsmash and fsmash. At this rate she's looking like her Brawl self, where she was a good character but horribly gimped by no KO power.

Also, when Kirby spaces with F-air, be careful because it has a tiny bit of landing lag (like it always has) and doesn't make him crouch when he lands (like it always has, and like empty short hops do) so you'll get hit pretty easily by needles and other projectiles.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Oh yes. I was fighting one of the top Sheiks on smashladder and I kept winning, literally because his kill moves were so weak, aside from sweetspotted Upsmash and UpB, which are hard to hit with. I felt pretty bad for him. She still overwhelms Kirby with her crazy speed and lagless aerials, but the matchup is probably even, possibly even in Kirby's favor since he can actually kill.
What they really should have done was nerf the landing lag on some of her aerials, so she can't just mindlessly spam them forever and then hit you with jab or ftilt you for trying to punish them. But in compensation they should've buffed the KO power of her dsmash and fsmash. At this rate she's looking like her Brawl self, where she was a good character but horribly gimped by no KO power.

Also, when Kirby spaces with F-air, be careful because it has a tiny bit of landing lag (like it always has) and doesn't make him crouch when he lands (like it always has, and like empty short hops do) so you'll get hit pretty easily by needles and other projectiles.

Yeah, I've beaten Phuzix (the Sheik you're talking about) a couple times. However, I'd be killed fairly quickly. With her kill moves nerfed, then the MU is probably going to be easier for Kirby. Also, her needles are great to use against her for building up damage.

Good to here that she's easier for Kirby. Her Vanish is really annoying when Kirby's trying to edgeguard, though :/

 

[WootSnorlax]

So even with vectoring out we don't have any follow ups with our throws?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

So even with vectoring out we don't have any follow ups with our throws?

People can't vector away from our F-Throw, so F-Throw to F-Air is more likely to hit now.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

It means we die easier, doesn't it?

Though I guess it means we can kill easier too.

Also just woke up so uh, lets talk about it a bit more I guess XD

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

If we dont have Vectoring at least do have DI?

 

[Ansou]

Vectoring was removed. We should discuss how this'll affect Kirby.

I was never good at vectoring to begin with, so it's okay. Just kidding, but that's definitely a significant change for all characters. If it can help Kirby get kills with U-throw for example and maybe even combos with other moves, that would be great!

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby's Frame Data - credits to @Thinkaman and @Dantarion

Jab1
Hits on frame: 4.0
Hitboxes end: 6.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 65

Jab2
Hits on frame: 3.0
Hitboxes end: 5.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 80
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 65

Jab3
Hits on frame: 7.0
Hitboxes end: 10.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 5.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 300.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 45

Dash Attack
Hits on frame: 18.0
Hitboxes end: 23.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 10.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 70
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 700.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 55

F-tilt (high)
Hits on frame: 15.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 97
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-tilt (normal)
Hits on frame: 15.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 97
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-tilt (low)
Hits on frame: 15.0
Hitboxes end: 17.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 97
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-tilt
Hits on frame: 11.0
Hitboxes end: 19.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 90
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 700.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 95

D-tilt
Hits on frame: 7.0
Hitboxes end: 9.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 8.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 70
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 560.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

F-smash release (normal)
Hits on frame: 31.0
Hitboxes end: 36.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 22.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 86
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 880.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

U-smash release
Hits on frame: 25.0
Hitboxes end: 32.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 17.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 86
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 850.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 82

D-smash release
Hits on frame: 13.0
Hitboxes end: 37.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 17.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 680.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 48

Nair
Hits on frame: 12.0
Hitboxes end: 28.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 9.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 105
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 315.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 70

Fair
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 21.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 12.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 360.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Bair
Hits on frame: 7.0
Hitboxes end: 10.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 14.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 420.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

Uair
Hits on frame: 13.0
Hitboxes end: 30.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 11.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 440.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

Dair
Hits on frame: 16.0
Hitboxes end: 18.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 15.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 450.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 50

Pummel
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 6.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 3.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 100
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

F-throw
Hits on frame: 5.0
Hitboxes end: 7.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 75
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 28

B-throw
Hits on frame: 20.0
Hitboxes end: 22.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 75
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 28

U-throw
Hits on frame: 26.0
Hitboxes end: 28.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 72
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 87

D-throw
Hits on frame: 35.0
Hitboxes end: 40.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 4.0
Max Hitbox BKB: 120
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
Max Hitbox Angle: 80

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Wish I knew what all that meant for Kirby

 

[Unknownkid]

Nice! Apologies for my incompetence but what does this mean?

 

[Ansou]

Kirby's Frame Data - credits to @Thinkaman and @Dantarion

I think I understand the first 3 rows, but I really have no idea what the rest is. Is this from the Data Mine you mentioned earlier?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Here's Kirby's "changes" in 1.0.4! Credits to @Thinkaman


Lots of misc scripting deletions
unknown instruction change at the end of subaction 2BA-2BC, 2BE-2C0, 2C2, 2C4, 2C6, 2C8
unknown line deleted at start of subaction 2E2-2E4, 2E6-2E8, 2EA, 2EC, 2EE-2F0, 2F2-2F4, 2F6-2F8
subaction 2FA and 2FB have unknown line removed and hurtboxes (3.0/5.0 damage, angel 0x16/0x169) unknown parameter changed from 0x3F to 0x1F
unknown line deleted on frame 15 of subaction 370
unknown line deleted at start of subactions 371-379, 37B, 3A2, 3AC
unknown line deleted on frame 23 of subactions 372-375, 377-379
unknown parameter in subaction 39F graphics changed from 0x2B -> 0x2F
multiple lines deleted on frames 11, 56, 71, and 101 of subactions 3BE-3C1
sound tweaks in subaction 3D0

---

As it's all "unknown" stuff, I'm sure it has to do with Copy Abilities.

 

[Beethro]

yo so kirby still has the cupid kirby-esque hover from spamming dark pit's arrows after a bthrow hahaha

but man i think the luma shot range hit kirby WAY harder than it hit rosalina, at least in that matchup in particular. it was such a good tool for instant ranged pressure that now barely passes our nose

 

[Uberlord]

This is why Nintendo should just give us patch notes.

I believe that Nintendo thinks we enjoy brainstorming to figure out what the changes are.

I also believe that Nintendo is wrong in this case.

 

[t!MmY]

It would help if there was some sort of reference for the data. I'm very familiar with this kind of data from my time spent with modding Brawl code, but it almost seems like the numbers are not congruent with what I would use based on my experience using Kirby in SSB4.

For instance:

"F-tilt (normal)
Hits on frame: 15.0"​

Kirby's F-tilt has been expressed as "5 frames" in previous Smash games, and it is my expert opinion that it is close to, if not exactly, the same in SSB4. Thus I would expect the above quote to read, "Hits on frame: 5.0" or very close to it, but it looks to be approximately 3x larger of a number than my expectation. As a reference, "Hits on frame: 15.0" would be approximate to Kirby's Up Smash in Brawl.

I think we're all competent enough here that we can visually tell the difference between Kirby's Up-Smash timing and Kirby's F-tilt timing which makes me think that there's some sort of interpretation of the data that is different. It would be nice to have something that clues us in on how to 'translate' the info.

 

[Asdioh]

Agreed. I don't know how much I trust that data. I can't see that much difference in timing between his dtilt (7) and ftilt (15)
Idk how good I am at seeing 8 frames of difference when there are 60 frames per second, but yknow.

 

[Unknownkid]

Well, I believe Indigo Jeans was trying to explain the frame data http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-data-and-hitbox-values-for-every-character-wip.378789/
Haha I'm still lost.

Anyways, @ Aunt Jemima , looks like Thinkamen update the information with Shield Damage Data on our Default Special Moves.

unknown substate 0x21a
Hits on frame: 11.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 35.0
Extra Shield Damage: 30
Max Hitbox BKB: 70
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 700.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

unknown substate 0x21e
Hits on frame: 11.0
Hitboxes end: 16.0
Max Hitbox Damage: 35.0
Extra Shield Damage: 30
Max Hitbox BKB: 70
Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 700.0
Max Hitbox Angle: 361

These two are apparently Charged Hammer (based on the Max HitBox Damage). I don't know what why this is posted twice.

 

[t!MmY]

I've done traditional animation (hand-drawn, frame-by-frame) and am pretty confident in 'reading' frames. I'd say that the average person can see the difference in 8 frames @60 frames-per-second (fps). The thing is that most people are not used to recognizing the difference even if they physically see it, but they will still accurately be able to tell a difference.

The fps shouldn't make too much of a difference since entertainment media (games/movies) are already designed around human perception. Off the top of my head the human eye 'sees' accurately up to about 120 fps, but the number doesn't matter much because creating animations at faster speeds just makes for a smoother possible animation - ultimately it's the display that caps the fps.

Edit:
After a bit of 'net research, it's more accepted that people can accurately 'see' closer to 150 fps but that the eye is capable of taking in much, much higher frame rates than that. The exact number isn't known, but 1000 fps seems to be capable. Indeed, people 'trained' in seeing (and recalling that data) have been recorded as much as 220 fps. So don't doubt your abilities to 'see' Smash frames!