King Dedede Match-up thread (The king is in the house!)

[Berserker.]

Discuss vs

 

[erico9001]

Ah yes, the big blue tirkin. A lot of people who play as this character try to get you angry by crouching, turning around, etc, after your death. In fact, there's even a guide on this! Lol, don't let that face get to you

That's part one of a new, very nice guide on DDD, which can really help you understand the character.

D3's up B has super armor and he has several jumps, making him hard to kill off of the stage. However, at the top of the arc he makes while using it there is no super armor, so that is the best time to hit him if you can. Watch out for its high shield damage. Opting to counter his up B when he lands with it can be a good idea, although it may not work more than once since they can cancel the up B into a helpless falling state if needed.

D3 has an interesting aerial game. Always be aware that he has 5 jumps, 4 aerial ones. Jumping is usually the best option for getting out of DDD's aerial strings, but be aware he usually still has more jumps.

d-tilt, frame 6, is his fastest option. For once, we win up close with our frame 5 jab.

Don't try to counter the down b if it's out. Yes, it would do insane damage if you did counter it, but D3's love to wait for a spot dodge or something before using the move. Don't be freaked out when the down B comes out, as they are very vulnerable when in this state. If you can, take advantage of it with an aerial or something.

Let's talk about the gordos. Yes, most of Shulk's attacks can send it back, even jab 1. Simply sending the gordo back at D3 will work against many bad players and even some good ones. However, D3 can send it right back at you with either D-tilt or Nair. ~14% damage if it hits you! Be ready to hit the gordo back again.

Gordos will increase in speed and damage when you hit them with a higher damage dealing move. Therefore, Gordos sent back while in Monado Buster will be harder for D3 to react to and will be worse for him if they do hit him.

Also, Gordos hit by our U-tilt will actually fall at a downwards angle. This is good to know for when Dedede does a gordo throw while in mid-air or does his Upwards Gordo. Air Slash also sends it downwards.

So, D3 has three gordo throws if you didn't know. His upwards gordo makes it bounce high but it does not go far. The side gordo is probably what you mostly think of, so it bounces low and goes far/fast. The down gordo is a mix between the two: starts out fast/bouncing low then gets slow and bounces high. He can also use these different options while in the air - each retains properties but have higher bounce heights. Each of these is important to be aware of so that you do not get confused. There are many ways D3 can use his gordos to trap you, etc. The best way to combat them is to be knowledgeable of them. I recommend watching this (different part of the same guide I posted earlier).

Ranges? D3's F-tilt has a greater range than our D-tilt, AS, and D-smash. Our F-smash and Bair have a greater range than his F-tilt. Our F-smash has a greater range than the hammer part of his F-smash, which does lots of damage, but not as much range as the 6% hitbox that comes out when the hammer hits the ground. That hitbox hurts grounded opponents only, so Shulk's well spaced Fair actually outspaces his F-smash. This is a nice response to D3's who love to charge their F-smashes for recovering Shulks.

I find the easiest way to respond to an overhead D3 is U-tilt. It covers the common Nair, but also any of the other aerials AND if he decides to jump again.

That's all I have to say about this MU for now. Of course, I'll post again if I think of more to say.

Also, I find this MU to be somewhat fun since I understand it better. Before then, I really kind of disliked it.

 

[Piford]

I want to preference this with that I have little experience with the matchup and most of this is theory crafting probably with personal bias.

So King DeDeDe has 2 major flaws as a character, he has the worst air mobility in the game by far, and he has poor frame data. Now he makes up for these by having multiple jumps and tons of power respectively. Shulk, however, has great mobility especially when using his arts (speed and jump) and has tons of power as well when using arts (buster and smash). Shulk also often outranges DeDeDe which is nice.

Now the main point I want to address is DeDeDe's fall speed. DeDeDe's extreme fall speed combined with his weight makes him live to extremely higher percents when getting killed upwards. Shulk has some of the best vertical kill moves in the game, but that means almost nothing compared to the sheer survivability of DeDeDe. This means Shulk wants to kill DeDeDe off stage. This is further presented by the problem of DeDeDe having multiple jumps. Luckily his poor air speed and laughable jump heigh make him extremely easy to hit in the air, but extremely difficult to gimp because of the jumps. So because of this, I think the best method in killing DeDeDe is going to be through Smash Fair and Bair. DeDeDe's Super DeDeDe Jump goes pretty high so it's harder to KO through pushing him down. Also, watch out for the custom Rising DeDeDe which makes him have a hitbox on the way up instead of the way down.

Now despite him being harder to kill than the average character, DeDeDe's poor frame data is really what makes Shulk shine. being able to out reach most of DeDeDe's attacks quicker than he can throw out attacks is very nice. That coupled with better mobility overall and DeDeDe has a hard time dealing with Shulk at all. Shulk's counter (specifically power counter) is a nice tool because of the sheer power of DeDeDe. At lower percents opt for buster counter, while opting for shield or smash counter towards higher percents.

So I'm not sure if what I said is actually good, but it's what I think is good. I honestly think DeDeDe is one of the worst characters in the game despite his survivability. I'd probably give the matchup a +2, however I'm not too familiar with DeDeDe's Gordo play so possibly a +1 for the matchup.

 

[Soul Train]

snip

Well many thanks for all the links to my videos, much appreciated

Hah, you grasped well the implications of the points I outlined there, and therefore covered quite well what I was planning on saying here! Nice work.

I'll highlight one point in particular: 's Utilt really does shut down the aerial mixup game, so abuse it. We can't really punish it, and it'll force a ground approach. D3's air mobility is great actually. At least on mixup terms. I mean, we have five freaking jumps. Then we can mix up jumps/fastfalls/airdodges and get back to ground almost every time. But dat Utilt, man...

Also. Don't try to counter more than once-twice a match. We LOVE counter characters. We have great throw combos and D3 is built to be reactionary, so you will be punished heavily for abusing.

Overall: I actually think the match is even, with maybe a slight advantage for an incredibly patient Shulk. It's quite a fun momentum-based game - you'll be comboing and out-prioritizing D3, or he'll be comboing and edgeguarding you. Shulk has a million disjointed hitboxes with crazy range, coupled with great speed (in Speed mode at least), and lots of other fun tools. But the fact is: you don't have a projectile. And any character without a projectile instantly becomes miles easier for D3, because then we can't be camped (D3's weakness). We're free to play our Gordo game with you - and it's one that we WANT to play, even if you get good at reflecting - because by playing, you've lost momentum.

This game is 100% won mentally first. Don't play hungry. Play patient, and frustrate the D3 instead of him frustrating you. Get him to start rushing you with unsafe attacks, and you've won. Good luck because D3s can be pretty frustrating too

Personal experience: I love it when Shulks use Jump mode. It makes my Gordo traps only that much more fun. Take from that what you will.

Also, D3's frame data isn't poor...mostly. It's specialized. D3 has a move for almost every situation that's not just out of grab range. I'll paste one of the D3 threat ranges I use in my videos - get IN the red, stay out of the green. We have a better grab range, and a great, lingering disjointed hitbox in Ftilt. Stay away from those, and abuse your crazy-disjointed-no-lag aerials. I'd also say that whole grey area in between the green - for Shulk - is a great range for you with your Ftilt/Dtilt. Abuse.

Hope that helps

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

This match-up is a pain, very even but a pain. First things first, Dedede does have less than good frame data, especially against a combo heavy character with fast attacks and mobility, but Shulk isn't one of those characters. After comparing the two here, it's apparent that Dedede is actually able to match a lot of Shulk's attack speed. In fact the only moves he has that are really slow in comparison to Shulk are Jab, Dash Attack, and F-Smash. Every other attack is pretty even in speed, with Dedede often being a frame or two faster, but unlike other characters that out-speed Shulk's attacks (almost every character in the game), Dedede only has slightly less range than Shulk not counting Dedede's N-air and will hit you for a lot often for approximately 10% per move, again not counting N-air. This means when you are trying to hit him, you have very small room for error cause one over-committing aerial and Shulk's eating a move that does +10%, which will hurt even more if Shulk has Jump, Buster or Smash on.

Thankfully, Dedede's movement speed barring his fall speed is pretty slow, so Shulk can just dance around him with Speed and Jump (just don't get hit in Jump it will hurt) From the Dedede's I've played, they like to hover right outside Shulk's jump range and take advantage of their fall speed to punish any attack Shulk tries to throw out with a falling N-air or B-air, or possibly force an action with a Gordo. If the Shulk just holding shield waiting for an attack, Dedede can just eat you. In this situation you either want to keep track of his jumps and try to shut down his air game with a U-tilt and force him to stay grounded. You might also be able to throw off his spacing by turning on Jump and try to space with an aerial, but messing that up can hurt. A lot.

Next annoying part about this match-up is Dedede lives forever. He's very fat and unlike the other fatties, he has an amazing recovery with 4 jumps and an Up-b that is both invincible and snaps to the ledge as he ascends. Which means Shulk loses out on his great edge-guarding in this matchup, and many attempts to do so usually just result in free damage or maybe even a KO for Dedede. However this doesn't mean don't hit him when he's offstage, just don't go hard. Wait for him to get near the stage so he can't catch you from far away, and don't fight Dedede when he's recovering low cause Dedede can just U-air Shulk if he tries, which won't KO at stage level, but it won't get Shulk anywhere closer to winning. The only time Shulk can really for sure get a solid edgegaurd, is if Dedede drops from the ledge and opt to regrab, win which case you can either go for a dair or possibly an angled F-smash. Just watch out for if they bait it and hit you with a U-air.

So to KO Dedede at a reasonable % you will either have to land a clean Smash Attack (which needs a hard read or punish), turn on Smash (Risk factor), or land a Vision (Need a read or good reaction time). Thankfully, provided Shulk plays safe and doesn't get hit offstage, Dedede will also have trouble landing a KO. Dedede doesn't have a kill throw, and his KO moves are either slow or not as big as his other moves.

Another thing I think is annoying about this match up is that the Monado weakness become very apparent here.
Since Dedede hits so hard, Jump, Buster and Smash weakness becomes much worse for Shulk, since Shulk will eat huge amounts of damage if he's hit, and messing up in Smash is far more dangerous vs Dedede than other characters. It also means that the mobility Shulk loses in Shield might not be worth it. Because Dedede survives so well, Smash wont kill very early and Speeds damage nerf will become much more of a factor here.

The quick and short version
- Shulk out-speeds Dedede in terms of movement
- Dedede hits hard.
- Shulk will have to land way more hits to get Dedede to KO % than Dedede will.
- Attacks the players should be using in neutral are about the same speed and range, with Dedede's usually being slightly faster but with slightly less range.
- Because of the above point, both players will probably play super patiently and wait for a proper punish or make a read.
- Properly placed and timed U-tilt will shut down Dedede's on-stage air game.
- Dedede edgeguards Shulk way better than Shulk edgeguards Dedede.
- If both players play safe, KOing requires a good amount of work from both sides or a big mistake from one player.
- Monado Art flaws become more apparent.

Dedede can hurt Shulk really bad if the Shulk isn't as patient as the Dedede, but Shulk has better mobility options and with Monado Arts he can out-mobilize Dedede until Dedede messes up and go in for some damage. Both characters are really good at responding to each others mistakes and options. I think the match up is annoying and mentally straining, but it's even.

 

[WiiDude83]

Again, even match up that depends on the players I feel. Both have counters to eachothers moves, such as gordo, vision, 3D airials/ dtilt. and shulks fair and nair. It comes down to who can out play the other for this match up

 

[erico9001]

Bair is pretty useful here, as it outspaces everything (and it's very easy to land because of his height). Buster gives Bair safety, which it doesn't have in Speed. This and the better Gordo reflections give Buster Shulk some advantages. However, Speed Shulk has an easier time avoiding and punishing D3's attacks. I recommend switching between these two primarily. I recommend avoiding Smash and opting for Shield instead when both are at high percents.

 

[Berserker.]

Dedede slightly beats Shulk in frame data. Range favors Shulk slightly. This match up feels even or +1 if you want a certain range instead of an absolute score

Buster and smash are extremely risky in this match up. Smash is fairly useless in this match up since Dedede takes forever to KO while you effectively allow yourself to be KO'd easily. Buster is... alright but still not recommended. It's only alright if you can space perfectly but honestly, it's not worth it. You'll gain more from using speed or jump

Jump is still useful in this match up even with the horrendous defense nerf. You just have to stick to baiting Dedede into using an attack then retaliating by punishing him or spacing with f-tilt/d-tilt when you land on the ground. Empty hops and FF > grab/dash grab/RC grab are your best friends in jump art mix ups. Believe it or not, n-air can still get beaten out by Dedede's disjoint. B-air is a move that I use much more in this match up since it's significantly easier to land, and it outspaces Dedede's attacks. Despite the start up, it's safer to use than n-air when it comes to poking Dedede solely because of its range. F-air is also safe to use imo. I haven't been hit out of f-air a lot when I try using it against Dedede. I do remember that f-air has a better frontal hitbox than n-air so that helps. It's really just n-air that I feel is risky to use in jump art despite it having the least landing lag.

B-air will be getting a lot of love in this match up. You should use speed art frequently followed by jump art then shield for certain situations. Buster and Smash are risky to use but I wouldn't completely rule buster out. Then again, that's just me. Opinions and all that.

I think the best way to approach the match up is to try capitalizing more on a bait and punish playstyle instead of spacing. Spacing is still recommended and I have given a few tidbits on spacing with jump art or approaching with it, but I feel like baiting and punishing is much safer and more effective.

 

[SalsaSavant]

D3 main here. Not going to do a full write up right now, but...I'd say roughly even. D3 hates anyone who can equal or beat his range, and I'd imagine the feeling is mutual.

D3's recovery game may give you some trouble. He's really hard to gimp, and a D3 with good matchup knowledge will generally know that you can gimp him at the top of his arc, and may go for the ledge because of that. Keep that in mind.

Some D3's will use the trick where he makes him recovery land just over the ledge instead of grabbing it, which is a great mixup that can confuse any character. Soul Train's video has the exact details, so look there. I don't know what the best response for Shulk would be, but if you can read it, I think it may be one of your best chances to do a counter.

 

[Berserker.]

Some D3's will use the trick where he makes him recovery land just over the ledge instead of grabbing it, which is a great mixup that can confuse any character. Soul Train's video has the exact details, so look there. I don't know what the best response for Shulk would be, but if you can read it, I think it may be one of your best chances to do a counter.

Yeah, vision (forward vision most notably) works well against this if you manage to get the read

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Hm... This is an interesting match up to say the least. On one hand, Shulk has slightly better range and can out maneuver D3 in a variety of situations with or without an art active. As added bonus, we have an easier time dealing with Gordos thanks to our range (F-Air , N-Air, and B-Air are so helpful in this), and D3's size lets us build on combos fairly often whenever we land a hit.

As for arts, I'm all for going for Jump and Speed in this matchup. We'll be able to dance around for an opening and can go for a combo whenever we find our opening. Shield can give us a second chance at life off of D3's attacks (Being able to live from D3's F-Smash at 130% is always welcomed), and might be able to screw with D3's combos (I know D3 has a pseudo chain grab off of d-throw if D3 follows up with u-air and lands in a certain way). Buster and Smash are odd choices here: We'll be able to build D3's % towards stock range and we have the benefit of making our attacks safe if blocked in Buster. With Smash, we'll be able to take a stock much sooner (especially if we get a Vision off of D3's attacks), but we're risking the possibility of losing a stock at 50%. Like many have said here, the drawbacks from each Art become more apparent in this matchup: We're more prone to damage and knockback in all our Arts save for Shield. If we're not careful, we can be killed off much sooner if we're reckless with the arts. It might not be a bad idea to hold off on the Monado Arts until you get an idea of how D3 is fighting.

D3's attacks have pretty good range just like us and some have super armor on them (D3's dash attack is a good example). So tread carefully and try to stay spaced out from D3's range. We can deal with the Gordos if D3 decides to throw them out, even if D3 tries to edge guard us with them (Air Slash will help out in this case). D3 also loves grabs and can follow up with them very well, so stay moving if possible. Edge-guarding D3 is a tricky task of it self since his Up-B gives him super armor on the way up. Once D3 falls down, we can hit with an areial or a vision to retaliate. A hit and run tactic might be a possible option in this match-up if we can space our attacks well and depending on the art.

So all in all, I think we got a fair fight here. D3 is strong and heavy, but he's also slow and prone to hits. Be patient, respect his power, and take advantage of our range here.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

As a Dedede main, and Shulk secondary (Shulk is probably my 3rd best character), I can say that this is a really fun matchup, as I think it is a pretty fair 50-50. This is a fun fight for both sides, because both characters have great range, great aerials for either gimping or killing, and neither character has any method of completely shutting out the other character. I am going to try to not repeat anything that has already been said, but I think that shulk's best bet on getting the upper hand is to use the monado arts wisely. Jump mode can give you the edge over Dedede in the air, and allow you to escape his combos, which are almost exclusively aerial. Speed mode gives you a huge advantage on the ground, and is scary when DDD is at low %. Shield mode lets you two both be super slow in the air, but super slow to get KO'ed as well. I think that shield makes shulk feel very similar to dedede, but without the jumps, so do not challenge DDD in the air in this mode. Buster is also scary to DDDs, but if you mess up, PREPARE FOR PUNISHMENT! Taking a single d-tilt from a DDD while you are in buster mode will hurt, and it is not too hard to land. Finally, smash mode penetrates DDD's survivability, which not many characters can do. The game really does come down to the arts, but this is easily one of my favorite fights in the game!