Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[SAUS]

You move him an almost negligible distance at the cost of potentially not getting any follow-up whatsoever, when you COULD be setting up a juggle.

No, you do not have to do "a ton of damage" to get an airborne Marth off stage. In fact, it's much easier to send him off stage that way than by d/fthrowing him towards an edge over and over.

Yes, you've proven up-throw is not a waste. I still feel that f-throw and d-throw are perfectly fine options and I will continue to use them. Juggling doesn't mean they're off stage - if they are, great, but if they aren't then you've only done damage. The damage you deal in the juggle, to me, means pretty much nothing - I even find that damage can be a hindrance to your killing potential (once it's at about 100 until a decent chunk higher). I disagree that the distance from f-throw into f-throw is negligible. It can easily be the reason your opponent is off stage or not.

 

[ZoSo]

You guys should stop this irrelevant discussion, in observance of the sanctity of this thread.

 

[ZoSo]

There's a lot more than goes into uthrow > utilting Sheik than I would've imagined. Kadano, I was under that impression that double jumps are just bufferable out of hitstun, period. Are there situations where this isn't the case?

Also, perhaps I'm misinterpreting this, but are you saying that prior to 22% vs Sheik, you should just uthrow > forwarding facing utilt, regardless of DI?

 

[Kadano]

What does that mean for these percent ranges: 9-11%,14-16%, 18-20%?

It’s never a true combo in these percent ranges, I just didn’t feel like testing every single percentage.
9-12% – 2 frame window
13-14% – 1 frame window
15-17% – 2 frame window
18-21% – 1 frame window

There's no real reason to miss the DI on fthrow in Marth dittos. You can react to it pretty easily with practice.

React? No, you can’t, unless you have reaction times of less than 7 frames as I have explained in the OP. From what I have read so far, 120 ms is the top amount of reaction time one can hope to achieve, so I don’t believe reacting to it can be easy. Anyway, dthrow doesn’t have proper followups in Marth dittos anyway, so just holding down and away should escape everything the grabbing Marth could do out of fthrow or dthrow.

I know, I just feel like up-throw is a waste of your grab in a marth ditto.

No way. From 13-63%, you get a guaranteed uair against Marth from an uthrow, whereas fthrow and dthrow followups are pure gimmick.

You can still miss the DI if they down-throw when you expect a forward-throw or the other way around. I'm pretty sure you can react to it either way, but you can still mess it up.

No offense, but the idea of this thread is to stop these “I think this is possible” – “I think this not possible” arguments and find out the truth by looking at micro-interactions with TAS precision. So please, don’t make claims here that you cannot properly back up – it defeats the purpose of this thread. Correct anti-fthrow-DI (down and away) does not leave you open after dthrow, so there is no risk of “missing the DI”. Also, like I wrote above, reacting to fthrow/dthrow is probably impossible for humans.

At very low damage you can f-throw into f-throw, and a little higher than that it forces a tech at least.

It’s not guaranteed. The thrown Marth simply needs to hold down and away the entire time – this will make perfect dash- or JC-grab (both are equally good here) whiff by one frame as it will “buffer” a Turn that moves him out of reach.
The tech force, however, is really interesting. I suspected for a long time that Marth has an infinite techchase against himself with fthrow, and it seems this is true. It’s just a little hard for me to write about it as techchasing depends so much on reaction times, and I still haven’t found a reliable source on what kind of values I should assume.
In short, you can punish tech in place, no tech and techroll behind all with (shield)grab on reaction and techroll away with wavedash tipper fsmash.

There's a lot more than goes into uthrow > utilting Sheik than I would've imagined. Kadano, I was under that impression that double jumps are just bufferable out of hitstun, period. Are there situations where this isn't the case?

Yes, indeed. It is a weird phenomenon that I don’t fully understand yet. What I have observed so far is that DamageFlyN 29 gets repeated many times until the total hitstun amount is over. So let’s say an attack causes 60 frames of hitstun, then DamageFlyN 1-29 will play normally, but then frame 29 will repeat for 31 frames. After hitstun frame 60, you enter DamageFall that can be interrupted anytime.
The last 21 frames of DamageFlyN 29 iterations can buffer a jump. So in the example above, pressing Y after hitstun frame 39 will trigger a jump just when DamageFall would start, but pressing on 38 or earlier will not.
After an uthrow, you don’t enter DamageFlyN, but DamageFlyU. This animation does not have this frame-repetition at all, so it will play on to frame ~60 (depending on percentage before hit) and then transition to DamageFall without any jump buffer frames whatsoever.
There are many different DamageFly* animations: N, N2, N3, Top, High, Roll, Air, Air2, Air3 and probably some more I haven’t encountered yet. I am not sure which of these exactly have the jump buffer property; some seem to only get triggered on low knockback, so they never get to frame 29.

Also, perhaps I'm misinterpreting this, but are you saying that prior to 22% vs Sheik, you should just uthrow > forwarding facing utilt, regardless of DI?

I avoid should-sentences wherever I can, so no, I’m not saying this. Also, on 0% before uthrow, Sheik can trade with nair. This is only true for 0% – at 1% before uthrow, she can’t hit you. Thus, you might want to pummel her once at 0% if you get the grab, but I’m sure you know that quick players can mash out before you get to that.
Personally, I will always go for uthrow → uair on 1-30% from now on. If the Sheiks I face are good at getting that 1-3 frame window, I will stop using it before 22% and go for dash away (to move out of falling nair range) → dd react to her choices and hope to get a safe fair or uair.

 

[ThePrime]

kadano you are a god

 

[Bones0]

React? No, you can’t, unless you have reaction times of less than 7 frames as I have explained in the OP. From what I have read so far, 120 ms is the top amount of reaction time one can hope to achieve, so I don’t believe reacting to it can be easy. Anyway, dthrow doesn’t have proper followups in Marth dittos anyway, so just holding down and away should escape everything the grabbing Marth could do out of fthrow or dthrow.

Well you can't react to the throw itself, but you can easily DI for fthrow as soon as your grabbed, which would be 14 frames (I'm guessing your 7 frames came from the time it takes to fthrow Marth and not the time it takes to get the grab hitbox out). And like you said, down and away DI doesn't really matter if they do dthrow, if they uthrow it usually doesn't matter (imo), but I'm not sure about bthrow. If you're interested, learning some DI traps for the ditto would be pretty useful. I was using bthrow -> utilt/uair a lot a couple days ago, but I figured that was mainly due to my opponent not being ready for it. Maybe his DIing away for throw was making him DI into a bthrow combo though.

 

[ZoSo]

I avoid should-sentences wherever I can, so no, I’m not saying this.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase, would you say it's optimal to do this? Would you recommend this option if somebody asked you, "what would be an effective followup if I'm Marth and I uthrow Sheik at <22%?"

Any other Sheik-specific stuff you've got cooked up would be deeply appreciated! Specifically interested in coverage vs Sheik's options from the ledge (excluding invincible ledge dash because it breaks everything).

 

[Beat!]

Well, it's obviously dependent on several factors (are you under a platform, are you close to the ledge, etc) but speaking very generally, my rule of thumb is to mix up between dthrow techchase and uthrow at very low percents, then uthrow -> uptilt when she's at about ~15 - ~30%, and then go for uthrow -> fair/uair if she's higher than that.

 

[MookieRah]

@SAUS
You should really, really listen to Beat here. I was beaten in a small tournament by a guy who really, really knew Marth dittos on a sort of 2008-2010 metagame level. I listened to Beat's advice and now I consistently beat him, and it's not because I have gotten much "better" on the whole.

Fthrow > another throw is not really guaranteed ever. It's best to not rely on doing that. If you are at mid-stage you should almost always upthrow > patiently see your opponent's response > appropriate follow up. It's nearly guaranteed to give you something, and a lot of times I can land a KO if my opponent double jumps early, allowing me to more easily combo into tipper/non-tippered fsmash or into a nair/neutral b to edge-guard.

 

[Beat!]

Don't click the link in the above post. It's a screamer.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words, Mookie.

 

[Bones0]

Don't click the link in the above post. It's a screamer.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words, Mookie.

That was just the wrong link. Try this one: http://akk.li/

 

[BTmoney]

How close to invincible can you get when you ledge hop as Marth when you do this:

1. Let go of ledge
2. Instantly jump above ledge level
3. Fast fall
4. Let go of down so you can regrab the ledge

I had my little brother spam moves and try to hit me while I was doing this and it seems to work and it's easier than the perfect haxdash

 

[Vivec]

Is there a window on-stage where Marth can "Ramen Noodle" Sheik from her Shino-Stall? How far away does Marth have to be? When should the Marth attempt to make his move?

Also is wding off the edge and ffing quicker than flicker-pivoting from a dash on the edge and ffing?

 

[SAUS]

@SAUS
You should really, really listen to Beat here. I was beaten in a small tournament by a guy who really, really knew Marth dittos on a sort of 2008-2010 metagame level. I listened to Beat's advice and now I consistently beat him, and it's not because I have gotten much "better" on the whole.

Fthrow > another throw is not really guaranteed ever. It's best to not rely on doing that. If you are at mid-stage you should almost always upthrow > patiently see your opponent's response > appropriate follow up. It's nearly guaranteed to give you something, and a lot of times I can land a KO if my opponent double jumps early, allowing me to more easily combo into tipper/non-tippered fsmash or into a nair/neutral b to edge-guard.

Ya I PM'd him about it and I've decided to try it out. Not many marth mains near me though, and I don't main marth either so marth dittos are not too common Maybe after exams when I can get out more I will test it out more.

Hey Kadano, thanks for clearing up my discussion with Beat, and sorry for being stubborn in your thread. I have a question for marth:
In this video just after 10 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKM4B6MKJ4
The commentator says something about doing the backwards double jump was good so that Pewpewu could reach the edge. Does marth have a higher "grab the edge" box when he does a backwards double jump than if he does a forwards one?

 

[dRevan64]

man I wish bob money commentated more
you get more vertical height from a dj back than forward, I don't think your ledgegrab hitbox is any bigger but I'm fairly sure you just go up higher

 

[Bones0]

Ya I PM'd him about it and I've decided to try it out. Not many marth mains near me though, and I don't main marth either so marth dittos are not too common Maybe after exams when I can get out more I will test it out more.

Hey Kadano, thanks for clearing up my discussion with Beat, and sorry for being stubborn in your thread. I have a question for marth:
In this video just after 10 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKM4B6MKJ4
The commentator says something about doing the backwards double jump was good so that Pewpewu could reach the edge. Does marth have a higher "grab the edge" box when he does a backwards double jump than if he does a forwards one?

I don't think it allows you to grab the ledge from further away. It just keeps your hurtbox further from the ledge while grabbing it.

 

[Kadano]

If you're interested, learning some DI traps for the ditto would be pretty useful.

I wrote a long post about throw options, but unfortunately my browser crashed and it was all lost. I feel a bit demotivated now and really wish smashboards had an auto-draft function. I’ll re-write it eventually. Here is a gif I made in the process that shows how to escape fthrow-regrab at 0%:

Anyway, bthrow in general won’t yield much for down and away DI.

Fair enough. Let me rephrase, would you say it's optimal to do this? Would you recommend this option if somebody asked you, "what would be an effective followup if I'm Marth and I uthrow Sheik at <22%?"

I’d say that below 22%, utilt should be mixed up with spaced fair or bair.

Any other Sheik-specific stuff you've got cooked up would be deeply appreciated! Specifically interested in coverage vs Sheik's options from the ledge (excluding invincible ledge dash because it breaks everything).

That’s something I often thought about, I’ll look into it. Probably tomorrow, but I can’t guarantee it.

How close to invincible can you get when you ledge hop as Marth when you do this:
1. Let go of ledge
2. Instantly jump above ledge level
3. Fast fall
4. Let go of down so you can regrab the ledge

First tangible frame during the fall:

Is there a window on-stage where Marth can "Ramen Noodle" Sheik from her Shino-Stall? How far away does Marth have to be? When should the Marth attempt to make his move?

Also is wding off the edge and ffing quicker than flicker-pivoting from a dash on the edge and ffing?

Will look into this together with Zoho’s request.

Does marth have a higher "grab the edge" box when he does a backwards double jump than if he does a forwards one?

No, not at all. Hitboxes align a bit differently, but it doesn’t really make a difference.

 

[Kadano]

Edgehogging Sheik’s up-B ledgestall (“shino stall”)
1. Ledgestall frame data
1.1. Ledgegrab and drop
Sheik’s ledgegrab animation takes 8 frames until she can drop. She needs to be in the falling animation for one frame, so in total, it takes 9 frames until she can start her up-B.
1.2. Up-B frame data
1-17 up-B startup without innate intangibility
18-34 up-B startup with innate intangibility
35 traveling direction is determined on this frame (between 34 and 35)
36-42 hitbox is active and full-size, Sheik starts moving (skipped as soon as Sheik collides with environment, thus her hitbox won’t come out at all if she is collides with a wall on frame 36)
43-46 hitbox is active but shrinked to about half the size
47-48 hitbox is active, shrinked to even less (about a quarter of the initial size)
50 hitbox is removed
56 Sheik stops moving, intangibility ends

In a typical shino stall (drop from the ledge, up-B immediately, hold down), Sheik will grab the ledge after frame 43 of her up-B. By fastfalling for exactly 4 frames after dropping, she can regrab the ledge as soon as after frame 36 of her up-B.
Thus, I will assume Sheik does a perfect shino stall with iterations of 9+4+36=49 frames.
1.3. Animations
Approximate Realtime (83%):...........................20% playing speed:

2. Edgehogging frame data
2.1. Pivot edgehog
If Marth is standing at the position you can see in the animations above, pivot edgehog will take 22 frames until he grabs the ledge.
Pivot edgehog is really hard to do consistently because it requires frame precision beyond frame precision. Further reading
The frame window during which you can start your dash and successfully edgehog Sheik is 24 frames.
Earliest edgehog: (83%)....(20%)

Latest edgehog: (83%)....(20%)

If you do the latest edgehog, Sheik has 20 frames to react to the start of your dash. Even if she gets the reaction, she is still in lag on the stage and you can punish her.
2.2. Wavedash edgehog
The frame window for wavedash is pretty much the same, the main difference is that you can edgehog from farther away and Sheik has more time to react.

 

[Bones0]

Oh man, losing posts SUCKS. I CTRL+A, CTRL+C all my decently lengthed posts just because of my internet cutting out and stuff.

Anyway, I've been meaning to ask for a while now, is it more optimal to ledgedash punish Sheik's up-B than it is to ledgestand? You can ledgestand while she up-Bs and still hold it, but I thought maybe it's faster to hold it long enough to edgehog the ledge angle, and then immediately after you eliminate that option, you can LD on and punish. If you ledge roll early enough, would it be better than ledgestand? Same question goes for ledge GUA and I guess all of the over 100% ledge options. I'm specifically thinking about using ledgejump to edgeguard Sheiks that constantly up-B onto the side plats (especially on DL where you can't tipper).

 

[MT_]

While we're on the topic of Sheik's up-B, Kadano can you explain the requirements for Sheik to do that up-B that gets the early explosion? Sometimes I'm holding the ledge and Sheik does this weird up-B angle where she sort of up-B's onto the stage and her explosion comes out early (it might involve a double explosion); the timing throws me off and I get hit by it and often stage spiked. I'm not sure what to look for since I don't think any local Sheik players do this but it's a mixup that's worked on me with a 100% success rate lol. I don't understand how it works at all though.

 

[Zhea]

I am jealous of this thread and how it pertains to Marth.

 

[Kadano]

Anyway, I've been meaning to ask for a while now, is it more optimal to ledgedash punish Sheik's up-B than it is to ledgestand? You can ledgestand while she up-Bs and still hold it, but I thought maybe it's faster to hold it long enough to edgehog the ledge angle, and then immediately after you eliminate that option, you can LD on and punish. If you ledge roll early enough, would it be better than ledgestand? Same question goes for ledge GUA and I guess all of the over 100% ledge options. I'm specifically thinking about using ledgejump to edgeguard Sheiks that constantly up-B onto the side plats (especially on DL where you can't tipper).

In my last post, I established how Sheik needs to react to your ledge approach within 20 frames. If she reacts correctly (hold towards the stage and slightly upward, 163°), she will land on the stage with 41 frames lag (counting from the first frame after she chose the direction). CliffClimbQuick takes 32 frames, so with a frame advantage of +9 fsmash is out of the question (10 frames startup) and grab / up-B punish is tight. Also, if you edgehogged her very late to make it hard for her to react, you will still be in ledgegrab lag and only have a frame advantage of +2 if you climb up instantly – too little to hit her with anything.
If you edgehog earlier and climb up earlier, Sheik can force ledge by holding towards the stage (180° at the righthand ledge).

The problem with ledgedashing is that Sheik can vary so much. By choosing to go down, towards or upwards, she can get to the ledge if she correctly predicts your ledgedash. It is possible to just keep hanging on the ledge and only ledgedash if you see her going towards the stage, but it requires reaction times of 7 frames or less to punish with grab / up-B.

In my opinion, neither is optimal. Instead, I recommend staying at the ledge unless you see her going for above stage. In this case, you do a ledgehop nair or uair depending on her damage. Because there is so little time to discern between her “interrupt” up-B and her “full movement” up-B, I advise against attempts like ledgedash fsmash.

While we're on the topic of Sheik's up-B, Kadano can you explain the requirements for Sheik to do that up-B that gets the early explosion? Sometimes I'm holding the ledge and Sheik does this weird up-B angle where she sort of up-B's onto the stage and her explosion comes out early (it might involve a double explosion); the timing throws me off and I get hit by it and often stage spiked. I'm not sure what to look for since I don't think any local Sheik players do this but it's a mixup that's worked on me with a 100% success rate lol. I don't understand how it works at all though.

I’ve never encountered an instance of her aerial up-B hitting earlier than frame 36. Please provide an example so I know what you are talking about.

I am jealous of this thread and how it pertains to Marth.

On whose behalf are you jealous? It’s not like I never stray to other characters.

 

[Zhea]

Falcon mostly.

 

[MT_]

The most obvious example of Sheik's up-B having an earlier hitbox is when she uses it to grab the ledge from on stage. So Sheik will run off the ledge and up-B right before falling off and an explosion will occur within the first few frames, then a second one when she goes to the ledge.

I was playing around with it and what it feels like to me is that if Sheik starts her up-B and either 1) transitions from the ground to the air or 2) transitions from the air to the ground, a explosion is triggered right at that instant in addition to the one on frame 36. Double explosion if you will. It takes some precision from Sheik to get this earlier explosion when recovering but its definitely possible. I guess I kind of found out what I wanted to know on my own though lol.

 

[Purpletuce]

So, there was a Facebook post about how Fly didn't die off of the top after being Usmashed by SW in their recent set. SW said it was because of SDI, making it so when Fly was at the blastzone, he wasn't in hitstun any longer, and that SDI either reduces hitstun, or changes momentum. Can we get an analysis on that? One example SW described was after Falco Dairs, and goes for a DJ Dair, a Marth can get a Fair out faster if he SDIs?

 

[Bones0]

So, there was a Facebook post about how Fly didn't die off of the top after being Usmashed by SW in their recent set. SW said it was because of SDI, making it so when Fly was at the blastzone, he wasn't in hitstun any longer, and that SDI either reduces hitstun, or changes momentum. Can we get an analysis on that? One example SW described was after Falco Dairs, and goes for a DJ Dair, a Marth can get a Fair out faster if he SDIs?

SDIing doesn't affect your stun. If you SDI away from the blastzone, you change the starting location of where you were hit (or at least that's how I like to think of it). So he effectively got hit from slightly to the right of center stage as opposed to exactly center stage, which means he was a tiny bit away from the left blastzone when stun ended. That's just an example though. I haven't seen the exact situation you're talking about. Also, if a Marth SDIed away from Falco's double dair attempt, he still has the same amount of stun, but the extra distance Falco needs to traverse to get to Marth before the second dair connects makes it take him longer, therefore giving Marth more time to get out of stun and get the fair hitbox out. It's the same concept of normal DI, SDI just has a way smaller effect.

 

[Purpletuce]

Seems along the lines of what I was thinking before, but since then I did a little bit of reading on SDI. . .

I'm thinking what happened was Fly did regular trajectory DI (down and away), as well as ASDI'd (c-stick down) so that he didn't go up as high, and appeared to go up more slowly(ASDI being applied the frame hitstun begins, taking distance off the first frame of the launch)?

On my journey I also found out that you can double stick DI -> tech to survive rest in the ditto in some situations, so I might try to learn how to do that. Troll strat: miss rest > tech their rest punish > rest them back.

 

[ZoSo]

I was able to take a set off Darc at the local tourney today. The theory crafting vs Puff has been a big help for me. Thanks again, man!

 

[Kadano]

So, there was a Facebook post about how Fly didn't die off of the top after being Usmashed by SW in their recent set. SW said it was because of SDI, making it so when Fly was at the blastzone, he wasn't in hitstun any longer, and that SDI either reduces hitstun, or changes momentum. Can we get an analysis on that? One example SW described was after Falco Dairs, and goes for a DJ Dair, a Marth can get a Fair out faster if he SDIs?

Could you give me a link to the video?
I've encountered similar phenomena, for example when you are falling down towards the ground and collide with it in the next frame, holding R and straight left/right will get you out of "tumble" and you will transition to the Landing animation. If you hold down and left / right and R instead, you will go into Passive* (tech options) instead.
Maybe SDI inputs are treated the same way as tumble inputs and kind of buffer an instant tumble breakout. I'll try to reproduce the situation as soon as I see the situation.

Also, I've been thinking of doing video analyses of high-level matches and showcase better options from certain micro-situations that are both humanly possible and low risk / high reward. Are you guys interested in this?
If you are, I request high-level players to post video links (preferably in 60 fps, but it seems I'm the only one streaming in that frame rate?) of sets where they lost although they felt they had a good day. This is to avoid over-analyzing sets in which the bad decisions are only due to the player not doing his best.

 

[Bones0]

Assuming Fox/Falco FFs their SH aerial, how high should they be to prompt my shield grab?

 

[Purpletuce]

link for clip in question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM_24Qv5Shg&t=22m10s

I'd be very interested in video analysis of high level players and some practical options in micro-situations. . . Marth puff comes to mind, but there are others.

 

[hectohertz]

kadano that was an AMAZING stream! 10/10 would sub

sheik requests:

comparision of sheik invincible ledgestall loops: shino w/ explosion, shino w/o explosion, planking, hax dashing (is it possible with sheik??)
it would also be cool to see what the margin of errors are on those (how big is the window to stay invincible)

overtriforce spot: a lot of sheik players like to land with their up-b in the spot closest to the ledge. this seems to make it easier to do amsah/armada/double-stick techs (so many different names ). is that true? why else is this spot good?

up-b turn-around while going straight up: its explained here http://smashboards.com/threads/reverse-shortened-up-b-recoveries-video-included.273278/ but i still don't get what the inputs are

techniques to do pivot f-tilt/utilt

fastest way to get to the ledge from a full run (meaning many of the options we tried today are out). some things to try: run -> wd turnaround, run -> crouch -> probably a bunch of choices here, run jump ff needle turnaround, needle edgehog

does doing a fair help you recover? i've heard different things, some people also say you have to fair on a certain frame (first frame of DJ i've heard)

what are the mechanics of sheik losing her 'magnet hands' when an attack clanks with her up-b

cg percents (might be hard to do in debug mode since nothing stales)

 

[Kadano]

I’m really glad you guys enjoyed it that much! I’ll open a new thread for my frame data stream and video project. Should I post this in Melee Discussion or Melee Videos, Livestreams, and Other Media? The second subforum’s title would be more appropriate, but it isn’t used that way currently.

Until I decide, I’ll leave the preliminary OP here:

Kadano’s Melee University
Episode 00 – Sheik recovery stuff
I had long planned to show the Melee mechanics and weird phenomena I had found out while researching questions other players asked in a stream or video series, and yesterday, when VGBC|GimR tried to explain Westballz’ dair he landed against Mew2king’s Sheik in their recent Kings of Cali 3 set but didn’t finish with it, that was the perfect opportunity for me to get started.

In my first stream attempts, my microphone went out every three minutes and I had to restart the stream. This is the video where I properly explain how the situation above worked.
Many videos later, I compared Sheik’s different edgehogs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcdjd24s3_E

Episode 01 – Marth analysis?
I haven’t decided yet what exactly I’ll show you in the first proper episode, so I hope good players will request matches I should analyze. If they don’t, I’ll just pick a recent set that I think is appropriate. Or listen to your other research requests if I think they are relevant enough.

 

[Bones0]

I’m really glad you guys enjoyed it that much! I’ll open a new thread for my frame data stream and video project. Should I post this in Melee Discussion or Melee Videos, Livestreams, and Other Media? The second subforum’s title would be more appropriate, but it isn’t used that way currently.

Until I decide, I’ll leave the preliminary OP here:

Kadano’s Melee University
Episode 00 – Sheik recovery stuff
I had long planned to show the Melee mechanics and weird phenomena I had found out while researching questions other players asked in a stream or video series, and yesterday, when VGBC|GimR tried to explain Westballz’ dair he landed against Mew2king’s Sheik in their recent Kings of Cali 3 set but didn’t finish with it, that was the perfect opportunity for me to get started.

In my first stream attempts, my microphone went out every three minutes and I had to restart the stream. This is the video where I properly explain how the situation above worked.
Many videos later, I compared Sheik’s different edgehogs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcdjd24s3_E

Episode 01 – Marth analysis?
I haven’t decided yet what exactly I’ll show you in the first proper episode, so I hope good players will request matches I should analyze. If they don’t, I’ll just pick a recent set that I think is appropriate. Or listen to your other research requests if I think they are relevant enough.

How basic/advanced were you trying to get with these streams? I know the advanced stuff is so interesting, but the community is DYING for a proper explanation of hitlag, hitstun, trajectory and how to influence it via SDI, ASDI, and DI. And you know from a simple browse in the FAQ thread that tons of questions get asked repeatedly. Everything from "what buffers and how?" to "how do I shield/shai drop?" or "what is the difference between regular shielding, light shielding, and powershielding?"

Idk if it's something you're interested in, but having a Twitch/YouTube combo dedicated to Melee mechanics (<-- and look, I even came up with your brand name) would be gdlk and probably end up rewarding you with some cash from all the subs you would inevitably get (and I know from this thread that you don't just help and teach others for money). Just throwing the idea out there since I've been waiting for someone to take the reigns on a project like that, but so far no one has stepped up to fill that demand, and you are probably one of the most capable people to do it. Either way, I'm excited to check out your stream.

 

[Kadano]

How basic/advanced were you trying to get with these streams? I know the advanced stuff is so interesting, but the community is DYING for a proper explanation of hitlag, hitstun, trajectory and how to influence it via SDI, ASDI, and DI. And you know from a simple browse in the FAQ thread that tons of questions get asked repeatedly. Everything from "what buffers and how?" to "how do I shield/shai drop?" or "what is the difference between regular shielding, light shielding, and powershielding?"

Idk if it's something you're interested in, but having a Twitch/YouTube combo dedicated to Melee mechanics (<-- and look, I even came up with your brand name) would be gdlk and probably end up rewarding you with some cash from all the subs you would inevitably get (and I know from this thread that you don't just help and teach others for money). Just throwing the idea out there since I've been waiting for someone to take the reigns on a project like that, but so far no one has stepped up to fill that demand, and you are probably one of the most capable people to do it. Either way, I'm excited to check out your stream.

Thanks for the feedback! Those are all great ideas and I’m very determined to get this project rolling. In case you watched my first improvised stream, you probably noticed that I wasn’t sure what paradigm to choose for what I was talking about – explain techniques newbie-friendly, go for advanced stuff hardly anyone knows about yet, explain rare phenomena, etc.
So I decided to order my future videos in categories. You can see how I plan to split them here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Kadano/Melee_mechanics_(video_series) (ssbwiki because formatting works much better there)
I’m not sure yet how I will title the videos, but I think this is a pretty important decision. I like your brand name suggestion a lot, it gets to the point and is still pretty short. Here are example titles:
“Melee Mechanics: BKT1 - wavedash and basic movement”
“Melee Mechanics: AIT1 - intangible ledgestalls”
“Melee Mechanics: CST1 - Marth-specific techniques”
“Melee Mechanics: MSA1 - Marth’s techchases against fastfallers”
“Melee Mechanics: HYEW - Projectile catching and reflecting”

On the upside, these titles are very specific and it’s also easy to tell the chronology with the abbreviations and numbers. On the downside, they are pretty long, so maybe not the entire title will be visible in Youtube.

 

[Bones0]

Thanks for the feedback! Those are all great ideas and I’m very determined to get this project rolling. In case you watched my first improvised stream, you probably noticed that I wasn’t sure what paradigm to choose for what I was talking about – explain techniques newbie-friendly, go for advanced stuff hardly anyone knows about yet, explain rare phenomena, etc.
So I decided to order my future videos in categories. You can see how I plan to split them here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Kadano/Melee_mechanics_(video_series) (ssbwiki because formatting works much better there)
I’m not sure yet how I will title the videos, but I think this is a pretty important decision. I like your brand name suggestion a lot, it gets to the point and is still pretty short. Here are example titles:
“Melee Mechanics: BKT1 - wavedash and basic movement”
“Melee Mechanics: AIT1 - intangible ledgestalls”
“Melee Mechanics: CST1 - Marth-specific techniques”
“Melee Mechanics: MSA1 - Marth’s techchases against fastfallers”
“Melee Mechanics: HYEW - Projectile catching and reflecting”

On the upside, these titles are very specific and it’s also easy to tell the chronology with the abbreviations and numbers. On the downside, they are pretty long, so maybe not the entire title will be visible in Youtube.

I feel like you should simplify it even further. First of all, if you go ahead with the idea to use Twitch/YouTube accounts called "Melee Mechanics", you won't have to add that into the titles. Secondly, people will intuitively understand that the videos are about mechanics, techniques, physics, etc. I would just label them like so:
Movement Options (basic)
Knockback and Stun (basic)
Directional Influence (basic)
Movement Options (advanced)
Powershielding (advanced)

If you want to add followup videos to cover additional stuff, you can just edit a 1 at the end of the original video and create a new one with a 2 at the end. You also might have noticed I gave an example of both a basic and advanced Movement Options video. I think this would allow people to quickly figure out which videos they should watch first, but at the same time allow you to group similar concepts together. You can make playlists entirely with basic videos and/or a playlist with all movement-related videos, shield-related videos, etc.

A playlist for all Marth-specific stuff would make sense as well so that non-Marth mains don't feel like they're combing through Marth videos for general ones. I have tons of ideas on optimizing organization since I'm OCD, so if you have any plans you want to bounce of me, I'd be happy to give my input. I think organizing videos properly is a huge help for YouTube channels, especially if you're doing something largely addressed chronologically like Melee techniques.

If you decide to do a sort of quick mini-series type thing with "Have You Ever Wondered?", I think it'd be perfectly appropriate to just title those "HYEW: Does Attacking During Recoveries Help?" Then you have a quick breakdown showing that aerialing during your DJ doesn't help (unless it does, in which case I'm amazed and will feel stupid).


Oh yeah, stuff I meant to ask before:

Does Marth's dair on grounded enemies have more stun in PAL? I thought moves like stomp or Doc's usmash had that extra long stun because they were meteor smashes, but idk if that's also the case for Marth's dair.

Also, not really Marth-specific, but is it possible for characters to get greater aerial mobility by WDing instead of dashing into a SHFFL? Is your aerial mobility capped by a character trait variable, or is it dependent on your velocity at the time of your jump? I remember reading Marth had reduced aerial mobility in PAL, but does that mean his velocity decreases as soon as he is airborne?

Another thought, how fast would you have to react to a GUA in order to dash away on reaction? I guess it depends on your spacing and the character's GUA, but I thought maybe Marth's low dash away would allow him to quickly avoid GUAs like Falcon's breakdance, and this would allow for more optimal punishes aside from grab (like dash away, dash back with a fair and take him right off stage).

 

[hectohertz]

kadano i am excited to watch everything you make.

also hoping you'll do some more sheik stuff <3

 

[hectohertz]

i made a post with some more sheik ideas

if you like doing these sort of things, im sure we could bring some other mains in to suggest things for other characters

 

[Kadano]

This will be great eventually, but I’m still in the phase of finding a good video creation program, deciding on the video names (thank you, Bones, I’ll use what you suggested!) and the general concept of my videos, so I don’t think such a discussion would be productive yet. I hope to set up my framework in the next few days, then I’ll make a proper thread and reach out to players.

 

[knightpraetor]

so this read was amazing. Learned an awful lot. However, I had 3 questions.
3. So to walk off pivot hog the ledge i just have to dash towards the ledge and then hold away as quickly as possible? That was my basic understanding of what I read, but I want to learn to do it if the technique has at least a 2 frame window.

2. For countering sheik's up b, how exactly do i do this when i think she is going horizontal? is this a walk off counter? not sure I followed your explanation because youtube isn't working for me. I'll look at it again when I get home.

1. More importantly, am I able to truly CC when I'm wavedashing? I forget the details about CC, but I thought that the ASDI down has one effect and the Crouch has another.

In practice, will it be better for marth to wd for movement if he intends to crouch and get hit by the laser over dashing and holding down while eating the laser? or do i receive the least stun by just sitting there in actual crouch and eating it.

Ah I feel like playing marth again cause of you guys (and girls). Well, I still play him vs peach, jiggs, and marth if i lose the first match. But all these details make me want to pick him up vs fox again too. I think I should pull a wenbo and just go all marth at a local for fun. I feel like with proper testing and knowledge of when to follow up with what helps so much