Just how much have we twisted Sakurai's original words?

[Koji Syntax]

Be glad we got any... and hope for larger numbers of them in future installments...

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Except that's not what Sakurai actually said. That's the best succicent translation of what Sakurai actually said, unfortunately, in English it bears the connotation of ending, something that the Japanese phrase lacks.

So no, unfortunately this is just another in a long line of poor translations from Japanese, right up there with "spoony bard", however this is understandable because there is no "good" translation.


Japanese page. Ima = now; Made = until.

Not necessarily, how many corporations reveal company secrets to just anyone? Not many. This sort of thing is on a need to know basis until it's revealed, and translators are not generally on the need to know list, so it's actually doubtful he or she knew.

They could always ask though... anything to make an update more clear.

Anyway, what do you suggest that he put instead, "Ness has been in all the previous installations however I neither confirm nor deny his appearance"? I guess that's closer to what Sakurai's original phrasing meant, yet it certainly doesn't capture the meaning, and is very clunky, and they generally don't like translators doing stuff like that.

Eh, no.... look, it's all in the tense, when you say up until now with a verb in the present tense, then it's a present continous, but when you use it with a verb in the past tense, it denotes some change in the situation.

 

[Black/Light]

. . . .Everyone is all happy with the english site untill they hear something that they don't like.

The skinny white dude that translates these things has not only been given the updates weeks ahead of time to translate but has also been playing early copies of the game (according to him. Would actually make sense for him to play that game before showing it for at the nintendo event so that he knows what he is doing).

This skinny white guy knows alot more about this game than we do and has all the resorces he needs to get w/e info he needs cleared up so for our updates so if he makes it sound as if Ness is being replaced than I take his word for it. (Really, the guy must know what he is taking about if he was choosen to do the updates for the english site)

And now on to the twisting of words. Sakurai never said that clones wouldn't return, just that on a large scale characters would be remade (have a new favor) and that some characters wouldn't come back. People like to twist this up in lil arguements for some reason
I personally think Ganon and Falco are the only 2 clones who are coming back but thats mainly because of relavance to the series and not said quote.

He also never said that having an unique melee move-set would be a character's golden ticket into brawl. IMO Lucas replaced Ness because of relavance to the series and I think Sheik has been scrapped for the same reason (but her completely made up move-set, at large, has been given to Zero suit).

Now on to the female one. The most we can assume is that Sakurai sees a clear leak of female characters in the smash series. He is happy to bring in a female (zero) because of this. I wouldn't think that a character would get in "just because" their female because of this but I would assume that if a female is important to her series and is unique (Midna, Krystal etc etc) that they could very well catch his eye.

 

[OysterMeister]

The skinny white dude that translates these things has not only been given the updates weeks ahead of time to translate but has also been playing early copies of the game (according to him. Would actually make sense for him to play that game before showing it for at the nintendo event so that he knows what he is doing).

This skinny white guy knows alot more about this game than we do and has all the resorces he needs to get w/e info he needs cleared up so for our updates so if he makes it sound as if Ness is being replaced than I take his word for it. (Really, the guy must know what he is taking about if he was choosen to do the updates for the english site)

I think so far as the Brawl translator is concerned it's best to assume his only advantage over us is that he gets the updates sooner.
You don't really need to know what Sakurai is hinting at with his ofttimes-mysterious comments to translate them, and I think the only copy of the game he played was the E for all demo, since that was the version he had to present. I see no reason why he'd have special access to secret knowledge about the final roster.

So far as the Ness thing goes, I think it's pretty obvious that the translator translated correctly. The question is just whether the phrase means what we think it means.
I mean, taken literally the statement that Ness appeared in the smash bros series up until now is entirely true. Ness hasn't appeared in Brawl, and neither has Luigi, Ganondorf, or Captain Falcon. They are all characters who have appeared in the smash bros series up until now, and will remain so until they are revealed to be in Brawl.

 

[Big-Cat]

Ppl right now are trying to bend the whole '3 third party characters' thing. There will only BE 3 of them, so learn to love it.:embarrass

We don't know that for sure. There was a maybe at the end of the sentence meaning it's at least tentative.

He also never said that having an unique melee move-set would be a character's golden ticket into brawl. IMO Lucas replaced Ness because of relavance to the series and I think Sheik has been scrapped for the same reason (but her completely made up move-set, at large, has been given to Zero suit).

About Sheik, designs of shim and Ganondorf were sent to Sakurai by Aonuma as said in an interview from the summer.

 

[finalark]

Except that's not what Sakurai actually said. That's the best succicent translation of what Sakurai actually said, unfortunately, in English it bears the connotation of ending, something that the Japanese phrase lacks.

So no, unfortunately this is just another in a long line of poor translations from Japanese, right up there with "spoony bard", however this is understandable because there is no "good" translation.





Not necessarily, how many corporations reveal company secrets to just anyone? Not many. This sort of thing is on a need to know basis until it's revealed, and translators are not generally on the need to know list, so it's actually doubtful he or she knew.

Anyway, what do you suggest that he put instead, "Ness has been in all the previous installations however I neither confirm nor deny his appearance"? I guess that's closer to what Sakurai's original phrasing meant, yet it certainly doesn't capture the meaning, and is very clunky, and they generally don't like translators doing stuff like that.

Well, I don't know what dimension you live in but in mine he's out, for shore. You know what, I'm going to laugh at all of the insane Ness fanboys on February 10th.

Spoony Bard.

 

[EPX2]

Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now

Ness appeared until now

End of debate.

Good job completely ignoring that I refuted this very stupid point earlier in the topic. Good effing job.

Ness is Gone, he said "Up until now", maybe it wasn't an exact translation of the Japanese but the guy in charge of that is sure to know whether or not Ness made it back in, he wouldn't have said that other wise, it a really pointless argument

...

Did you even read this topic? Using your logic, there's no handicaps in Brawl, then.

 

[Cosine]

Good job completely ignoring that I refuted this very stupid point earlier in the topic. Good effing job.



until now I've always include(d) handicaps

whoamg



...

Did you even read this topic? Using your logic, there's no handicaps in Brawl, then.

He said "So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series.". In a way the new handicap is like Lucas, a newer version of somthing from melee.

 

[EPX2]

He said "So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series.". In a way the new handicap is like Lucas, a newer version of somthing from melee.

Once again, you only realize that there's a new handicap by reading the entire update. That specific quote which I've been focusing on does not, in any way, shape, or form, even hint that a change to the handicap system has been made. It's semantically similar to the Ness quote, which you feel seems to seal the deal as far he is concerned.

As we've seen that there's obviously a handicap system present in Brawl, it's safe to say that the phrase "Up until now" means absolutely nothing significant... which means it's downright stupid and foolish to use that as evidence that Ness will not be returning. Relying on a quote that, in the end, really tells us nothing other than the obvious is just ridiculous.

tl;dr version: Stop looking so deeply into a meaningless quote. "Up until now, a character named Ness has appeared" = Ness has appeared in all previous SSB games.

"Up until now, I've included a handicap system" = a handicap system has been present in all previous SSB games. It means nothing more than exactly what it says. It's not Sakurai's, Nate's, or whoever else's little "subtle" way of hinting that a certain element will not be returning in Brawl.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, I don't know what dimension you live in but in mine he's out, for shore. You know what, I'm going to laugh at all of the insane Ness fanboys on February 10th.

Spoony Bard.

I'm living in the dimension where there are many languages, and things get lost in translation all the time. You know, the real world.

But hey whatever, it's not like I'm particularly concerned. I'm not arguing he'll make it, just that he's not deconfirmed.


P.S. Spoony Bard is a Final Fantasy IV (II for those who only played it on SNES and never found out the real numbering) reference. It was a particularly badly translated piece of text which was so bad that it was comical and became classic in it's own right. For other examples of translation issues, try reading the Aeneid (even the best translations), or some other great work in a different language. Then try getting a commentary of the original language version (or better yet, learn the original language, and read the initial version), I guarantee that so much of it is unrecognizable without the original language. Comparing the English translations of the Bible is another fun one. Heck, even older versions of English have this problem, read Shakespeare without footnotes sometime, and then with them.

These are just a few of many illustrations of how much translation changes things, and how much is lost. So why is it so hard to believe that this is one such case?

. . . .Everyone is all happy with the english site untill they hear something that they don't like.

The skinny white dude that translates these things has not only been given the updates weeks ahead of time to translate but has also been playing early copies of the game (according to him. Would actually make sense for him to play that game before showing it for at the nintendo event so that he knows what he is doing).

This skinny white guy knows alot more about this game than we do and has all the resorces he needs to get w/e info he needs cleared up so for our updates so if he makes it sound as if Ness is being replaced than I take his word for it. (Really, the guy must know what he is taking about if he was choosen to do the updates for the english site)

No, we were happy with it until somebody noticed that the differences in linguistics between English and Japanese made it so there was a difference between the meaning of the Japanese site and the English one.

Of course it's not his fault, it's a problem that is inherent in all translations, in this case there was no English translation that preserved the original meaning fully. This is just coming to a head because it's critical wording that either deconfirms a character or doesn't, hence people noticed.

Having taken several foreign languages, I'm well aware of the issue of things getting lost in translation, hence I generally refuse to parse the exact meaning of words and phrases when looking for hints about brawl, and when I do I reference to the Japanese site to make sure that something critical wasn't lost in translation.

But the fact is, this is a good lesson for people about this issue in general. Be wary of basing assumptions on translations, they often lose a lot.

 

[Cosine]

Once again, you only realize that there's a new handicap by reading the entire update. That specific quote which I've been focusing on does not, in any way, shape, or form, even hint that a change to the handicap system has been made. It's semantically similar to the Ness quote, which you feel seems to seal the deal as far he is concerned.

As we've seen that there's obviously a handicap system present in Brawl, it's safe to say that the phrase "Up until now" means absolutely nothing significant... which means it's downright stupid and foolish to use that as evidence that Ness will not be returning. Relying on a quote that, in the end, really tells us nothing other than the obvious is just ridiculous.

tl;dr version: Stop looking so deeply into a meaningless quote. "Up until now, a character named Ness has appeared" = Ness has appeared in all previous SSB games.

"Up until now, I've included a handicap system" = a handicap system has been present in all previous SSB games. It means nothing more than exactly what it says. It's not Sakurai's, Nate's, or whoever else's little "subtle" way of hinting that a certain element will not be returning in Brawl.

First off Ness is quote was "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now," and technically you could say the same about that, The handicap quote meant the old handicap system was ditched and a new and possibly better one has been announced, just like Lucas and Ness

The whole Lucas' Special Moves update was used to get one message across,
- R. I. P. Ness, may you live on in our memories, and in melee

And for god sake Ness fans stop complaining, Lucas is just like Ness, he pretty much is Ness, I mean im not complaining there using the new Link model, with his new Boomerang

 

[DeuceBlade]

First off Ness is quote was "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now," and technically you could say the same about that, The handicap quote meant the old handicap system was ditched and a new and possibly better one has been announced, just like Lucas and Ness

The whole Lucas' Special Moves update was used to get one message across,
- R. I. P. Ness, may you live on in our memories, and in melee

And for god sake Ness fans stop complaining, Lucas is just like Ness, he pretty much is Ness, I mean im not complaining there using the new Link model, with his new Boomerang

yes of course Lucas is like Ness, the come from the same PK, Sakurai wanted us to know this so that if people we're going to say Lucas = Clone, there is a logical reason, plus they don't even have all the same moves except for 1 or 2 similar to Mario and Luigi..

While checking King Dedede's profile today I found a very interesting quote by Sakurai for King Dedede

Can he defeat kirby?

Seems as if Sakurai is hinting that there should be a challenge between the two to see if he can actually beat kirby.

This reminded me of the Lucas profile:

Is it possible he can surpass even Ness?!

Coincidence? I doubt it.

Ness still has a chance in my opinion.

 

[Black/Light]

About Sheik, designs of shim and Ganondorf were sent to Sakurai by Aonuma as said in an interview from the summer.

. . . And thats all that happened. We have no idea if he will use Sheik's designs and if he uses them than we have no idea what he will use them for. AT, sticker, reg troph. . .

Post above mean. Surpass and defeat mean 2 different things. They where clearly used in 2 different manners and you know it. . .

 

[Koji Syntax]

You know... the english language has gender-neutral pronouns...

Xe and Ey... People need to use those more

 

[EPX2]

First off Ness is quote was "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now," and technically you could say the same about that, The handicap quote meant the old handicap system was ditched and a new and possibly better one has been announced, just like Lucas and Ness

No, the handicap quote means exactly what it says, not what you want it to mean. Please stop ignoring my posts, I've addressed this issue several times. The update shows us that the way handicaps are handled has been revamped - NOT the quote.

 

[volbound1700]

Ppl right now are trying to bend the whole '3 third party characters' thing. There will only BE 3 of them, so learn to love it.:embarrass

Exhibit A of what this whole thread is talking about.

I also notice how must the morons on this board use the faces.

 

[finalark]

Once again, you only realize that there's a new handicap by reading the entire update. That specific quote which I've been focusing on does not, in any way, shape, or form, even hint that a change to the handicap system has been made. It's semantically similar to the Ness quote, which you feel seems to seal the deal as far he is concerned.

As we've seen that there's obviously a handicap system present in Brawl, it's safe to say that the phrase "Up until now" means absolutely nothing significant... which means it's downright stupid and foolish to use that as evidence that Ness will not be returning. Relying on a quote that, in the end, really tells us nothing other than the obvious is just ridiculous.

tl;dr version: Stop looking so deeply into a meaningless quote. "Up until now, a character named Ness has appeared" = Ness has appeared in all previous SSB games.

"Up until now, I've included a handicap system" = a handicap system has been present in all previous SSB games. It means nothing more than exactly what it says. It's not Sakurai's, Nate's, or whoever else's little "subtle" way of hinting that a certain element will not be returning in Brawl.

Your logic is broken, I mean, it's more broken then Kirby's back throw.

 

[OysterMeister]

Your logic is broken, I mean, it's more broken then Kirby's back throw.

No, his logic is dead on. He's saying that Sakurai has used the phrase 'up until now' about three times.
Each time, taken by itself, the quote seems to imply that combos, or handicaps, or Ness have been cut from Brawl.
However, the fact that combos and handicaps are still in Brawl (in once case the same but with additions, in the other case changed) proves that Sakurai doesn't use 'up until now' to mean something isn't going to be in Brawl.
And that's the heart of this thread. It's easy to twist the phrase 'up until now' to mean something different, but all the phrase really means is that Ness has appeared in Smash Bros and Smash Bros Melee, and has not been revealed to be in Brawl. It's the assumption that this means he won't ever be revealed in Brawl that's twisting Sakurai's words.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Up until now: deconfirmed tapping A as the *primary* way to do standard combos. The update introduced a new one, so now tapping A is *a* way.
Up until now: deconfirmed the tornado as Mario's down special and revealed it as a standard attack.
Up until now: deconfirmed the old handicap mode an introduced a new one.

 

[OysterMeister]

Up until now: deconfirmed tapping A as the *primary* way to do standard combos. The update introduced a new one, so now tapping A is *a* way.
Up until now: deconfirmed the tornado as Mario's down special and revealed it as a standard attack.
Up until now: deconfirmed the old handicap mode an introduced a new one.

Yes, that's what the updates said. The point is that 'up until now' wasn't used to mean "this isn't in Brawl" in those updates, 'up until now' was used to mean "this was in both the original smash and in melee".

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Yes, that's what the updates said. The point is that 'up until now' wasn't used to mean "this isn't in Brawl" in those updates, 'up until now' was used to mean "this was in both the original smash and in melee".

and both in the original smash and in melee we had a Mother character, and we do too in Brawl.

 

[EPX2]

Your logic is broken, I mean, it's more broken then Kirby's back throw.

Translation: I have no way to refute your point, so I'll just say, "LOL, YOUR LOGIC IS HORRIBLE" and go about my merry way.

I mean, seriously, you could at least put some effort into it. Why not point out exactly what's so "broken" about my logic?

and both in the original smash and in melee we had a Mother character, and we do too in Brawl.

I don't see what you're trying to prove here... you'd somewhat be making a point if the update stated, "Up until now, a Mother character has appeared in the Smash Bros. series" - but it specifically names Ness.

 

[Copperpot]

The only thing that I don't get is this:

Why would he even address Ness in the update, if he didn't have some intention of replacing him?

Think about it. It wasn't even necessary to include Ness in the update unless he was trying to draw a connection between the two. I'm not so concerned with the fact that he's saying "up until now" than I am with him consistently trying to compare Lucas to Ness. There's a reason for it, and the only conclusion I can come to is that Lucas is supposed to be the spiritual successor to Ness in Brawl.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Well, just like Lucas is Ness' successor in the Mother series, he can be Ness' successor in Brawl.

 

[Copperpot]

Pretty much so. I don't understand why people are so hung-up on the translation of the update. When I first read it, I had the understanding that Lucas was replacing Ness strictly because Ness was mentioned in the update.

 

[EPX2]

The only thing that I don't get is this:

Why would he even address Ness in the update, if he didn't have some intention of replacing him?

Well, you answered your own question:

Think about it. It wasn't even necessary to include Ness in the update unless he was trying to draw a connection between the two.

He mentioned Ness partly for the same reason he mentioned Kirby in King Dedede's update - he simply wanted to show that there's a relationship (not in the romance sense, in that they share something in common) between the two characters.

Pretty much so. I don't understand why people are so hung-up on the translation of the update. When I first read it, I had the understanding that Lucas was replacing Ness strictly because Ness was mentioned in the update.

That's pretty flawed reasoning. I mean, it's one thing if you came to that conclusion based off the entire update - but simply because Ness was mentioned? That's just silly.

 

[OysterMeister]

I understand WHY Sakurai would replace Ness with Lucas. I don't really agree, but I understand the reasoning. Here's what I don't get:

Why not say it directly? If Sakurai replaced Ness with Lucas, I'd hope he's do it because he though it would make Smash Bros a better game as a result. If this is the case, why not come out and say so?
In past updates, Sakurai has been pretty forthcoming about potential disappointments, stating very directly that some feature may not make it into the final game and that no assist trophy characters were playable. It seems then that the only reason he'd hide something as major as replacing a character is that he's secretly ashamed of the decision or worried about massive fan backlash. And if that's the case, why replace a character at all?

Also, if Sakurai were to replace a character, this isn't how I'd see him doing it.
Lucas isn't a clone of Ness. He shares a few specials, but that's it. All the standard moves are different, and even some of the special moves have been tweaked. Why bother to do this?
Since Ness' moveset would have to be cut with him, you aren't increasing the number of unique movesets in the trade, and are instead creating more work for yourself than a simple replacement should be. It seems to me like it'd be easier on everybody to just replace the model of Ness with a model of Lucas and keep the old moveset. After all, both Ness and Lucas are capable of using the same moves and items. Why bother switching things up at all?

 

[burrito]

There are two other misinterpretations of Sakurai:
1. Sakurai will reveal all the characters before Brawl comes our.
2. All 3rd party characters will be hidden.
Both of these things were never confirmed, but people seem to persist in saying that they were.

As for "up until now", I believe that is an including phrase, not an excluding phrase. Therefore, that does not confirm that Ness is gone. However, I have much better reasons to thin k that Ness is gone.

 

[Big-Cat]

Can we get back on topic?

 

[Copperpot]

Well, there are a number of different ways to interpret Ness' mentioning. When was he mentioned? How was he mentioned? And, above all, why was he mentioned?

I would only separate Lucas' update from Dedede's because Kirby had already been confirmed to be playable. It seems okay due to the fact that we already know that Kirby is announced. Why would he mention Ness when we don't even know if he's in the game or not? I don't think he'd slip up like that.

 

[Terrabottuti]

Looking at this topic, I wonder why I've hardly seen any Ness fans use the "Hyrule Temple" argument...

The scale of this stage is one of the grandest in the Smash Bros series. The scale is, say, about as same as that Temple stage—you know the one I’m talking about?

This little bit of text was made all the way back in the New Pork City update, but in a interesting turn of events, the Hyrule Temple that update mentioned made it's return to Brawl a while later... it might only be a coincedence, but I'm sure somebody could just say the amount of times Ness has actually been mentioned by name could ensure he actually returns to Brawl.

As for me, I'm just happy with Lucas at the moment, I'm just pointing out a potential weapon I'm surprised nobody's used.

 

[Corax The Cold]

I find the Zamus quote weird. He didn't really *ADD* a character. So we have 2 Metroid characters, plus what, 4 Girls. The 2 Metroid characters are Samus Aran, and half of the girls are Samus Aran... OK...

well Zamus is way more of a womanly figure than Samus, cause with the suit and all it erally doesnt make a difference in Samus is a man or woman. with Zamus thou you know its a woman, and can reap all the benefits of that (boobs)

 

[EPX2]

Looking at this topic, I wonder why I've hardly seen any Ness fans use the "Hyrule Temple" argument...


This little bit of text was made all the way back in the New Pork City update, but in a interesting turn of events, the Hyrule Temple that update mentioned made it's return to Brawl a while later... it might only be a coincedence, but I'm sure somebody could just say the amount of times Ness has actually been mentioned by name could ensure he actually returns to Brawl.

As for me, I'm just happy with Lucas at the moment, I'm just pointing out a potential weapon I'm surprised nobody's used.

Good point, I'd never realized that. I would assume that's never been brought up (at least in any discussions I've participated in) mainly because no one has ever bothered to point out that Ness was mentioned without having been confirmed. But that definitely serves as a great counter to Copperpot's point.

Also:

I understand WHY Sakurai would replace Ness with Lucas. I don't really agree, but I understand the reasoning. Here's what I don't get:

Why not say it directly? If Sakurai replaced Ness with Lucas, I'd hope he's do it because he though it would make Smash Bros a better game as a result. If this is the case, why not come out and say so?
In past updates, Sakurai has been pretty forthcoming about potential disappointments, stating very directly that some feature may not make it into the final game and that no assist trophy characters were playable. It seems then that the only reason he'd hide something as major as replacing a character is that he's secretly ashamed of the decision or worried about massive fan backlash. And if that's the case, why replace a character at all?

Also, if Sakurai were to replace a character, this isn't how I'd see him doing it.
Lucas isn't a clone of Ness. He shares a few specials, but that's it. All the standard moves are different, and even some of the special moves have been tweaked. Why bother to do this?
Since Ness' moveset would have to be cut with him, you aren't increasing the number of unique movesets in the trade, and are instead creating more work for yourself than a simple replacement should be. It seems to me like it'd be easier on everybody to just replace the model of Ness with a model of Lucas and keep the old moveset. After all, both Ness and Lucas are capable of using the same moves and items. Why bother switching things up at all?

You've basically summed up my entire thoughts on this issue.

 

[Koji Syntax]

well Zamus is way more of a womanly figure than Samus, cause with the suit and all it erally doesnt make a difference in Samus is a man or woman. with Zamus thou you know its a woman, and can reap all the benefits of that (boobs)

Have you SEEN the power suit's goods?!?!?!?! That thing is STACKED!

 

[Shuma]

"Once again, you only realize that there's a new handicap by reading the entire update. That specific quote which I've been focusing on does not, in any way, shape, or form, even hint that a change to the handicap system has been made."

This is incredibly stupid, "if i don't read the entire update i don't know what the first sentence means".

... Well that's why the update is more than once sentence long.

Also i advice everyone to read this again:

"Up until now: deconfirmed tapping A as the *primary* way to do standard combos. The update introduced a new one, so now tapping A is *a* way.
Up until now: deconfirmed the tornado as Mario's down special and revealed it as a standard attack.
Up until now: deconfirmed the old handicap mode an introduced a new one."

Now see this:

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now"

Now, if we use the "up until now" the same way Sakurai has been using it in all his updates, this only means one thing, Ness appeared in every smash game until now, Sakurai isn't hinting at anything, he clearly says that Ness is out and has been replaced by Lucas. You guys are worse than the nook fans.

 

[OysterMeister]

Now see this:

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now"

Now, if we use the "up until now" the same way Sakurai has been using it in all his updates, this only means one thing, Ness appeared in every smash game until now, Sakurai isn't hinting at anything, he clearly says that Ness is out and has been replaced by Lucas. You guys are worse than the nook fans.

Actually, if we use 'up until now' the way Sakurai has been in all his updates, the sentence means: "Ness was in the original Smash Bros and in Melee"

The whole point of that 'read the whole update' thing was that it's the rest of the update that spells out what's been cut or changed. Left to it's own devices, 'up until now' always seems to imply direct exclusion, but those other updates have shown that this isn't always the case.

'Up until now' is always used to mean "in previous Smash Bros games".

 

[Shuma]

All the updates where he said "until now" were about how stuff that appeared on the last smash games have been replaced or changed, in Lucas/Ness case it can mean 2 things.

1.- Ness gets a new moveset and Lucas gets Ness old moveset wich is completly ilogical.

2.- Ness is gone.

 

[OysterMeister]

All the updates where he said "until now" were about how stuff that appeared on the last smash games have been replaced or changed, in Lucas/Ness case it can mean 2 things.

1.- Ness gets a new moveset and Lucas gets Ness old moveset wich is completly ilogical.

2.- Ness is gone.

Lucas can't get Ness' old moveset, since he's already been shown to have one of his very own. Ness would return with his own moveset. But that's missing the point.

All those updates were about change, but the 'until now' part of all those updates was just used to mention that the subject appeared in past smash bros games. It made sense to mention them that way because, well, things had changed. It's hard to describe change if you don't at least mention the way things were before, so it makes sense that Sakurai would use the phrase 'until now'.
So why would Sakurai use that phrase to refer to Ness? It's possible that he meant Ness was cut. But it's also possible that he wanted to refer to Ness' past appearances ONLY, which makes sense if you consider Ness as a character who has yet to be confirmed.

 

[EPX2]

"Once again, you only realize that there's a new handicap by reading the entire update. That specific quote which I've been focusing on does not, in any way, shape, or form, even hint that a change to the handicap system has been made."

This is incredibly stupid, "if i don't read the entire update i don't know what the first sentence means".

... Well that's why the update is more than once sentence long.

Also i advice everyone to read this again:

"Up until now: deconfirmed tapping A as the *primary* way to do standard combos. The update introduced a new one, so now tapping A is *a* way.
Up until now: deconfirmed the tornado as Mario's down special and revealed it as a standard attack.
Up until now: deconfirmed the old handicap mode an introduced a new one."

Now see this:

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now"

Now, if we use the "up until now" the same way Sakurai has been using it in all his updates, this only means one thing, Ness appeared in every smash game until now, Sakurai isn't hinting at anything, he clearly says that Ness is out and has been replaced by Lucas. You guys are worse than the nook fans.

*facepalm*

Way to completely miss my point. I'm refuting the people who are basing their conclusion that Ness is out solely (or primarily) on the "Up until now" quote.

Secondly, "up until now" can be used as both an exclusionary or inclusionary term - that is, it can be used to describe something that has occurred until this very instance or something that has occurred in every instance including this one.

"I attended elementary school until 2003." = I stopped attending elementary school in (not before) 2003.

"I'm going to study until 10 pm." = I'm going to stop studying once the time is 10:00 pm.

This quote from GameFAQs stresses my point:

Think about the sentence in a different context.

"Up until now" means that the subject in question has relevancy from the start and up to this point in time defined herein as now. If you were to say "up until last year," the subject is relevant from start and up to the point of the beginning of last year (or however one places "year" in context). By saying that Ness has been a Smash member "up until now," this means that Ness has been a member since the beginning and up to this point in time. This does not mean that Ness is no longer a member, it only means that it has been confirmed that Ness is a member up to the point at which the statement was made. Since we don't understand the context completely, we don't know if "now" means within the Brawl timeline or if it means the time in between Melee and Brawl. We can say we don't understand because Brawl hasn't been officially released yet. Either way, it's neither a confirmation or a denial.

For example "We have received no information up until now." This means that from the beginning to the point designated as "now," no information has been received by the subject "we." It doesn't mean that "we" will never receive "information." What happens after that point hasn't been defined yet.

Also, since you brought up Tom Nook - I guess you forgot about the fact that Falco is technically both a playable character AND a background character in Melee. Three words: Fox's secret taunt.

 

[Big-Cat]

Dammit, can we drop the Ness talk, please?