Jump B-Reverse Transform Out of Hitstun

[Luis Alonso]

What's the name of the technique when you jump and b-reverse transform out of hitstun to gain surprising horizontal momentum? It's just like Nayru Glide in execution. Z-hime does it all the time.

 

[ECHOnce]

Not sure if we actually have a name for it yet lol. Whenever I've heard it brought up, we just refered to it as "transforming with Nayrus Love/Glide momentum." I'm sure we've called it Transform Glide or something for the sake of consistency but...that probably never stuck for obvious reasons lol.

The Sisterhood of Zeldas should gather and settle this matter once and for all.
I PROPOSE...THE "GLIDING FISHH"

 

[Luis Alonso]

Not sure if we actually have a name for it yet lol. Whenever I've heard it brought up, we just refered to it as "transforming with Nayrus Love/Glide momentum." I'm sure we've called it Transform Glide or something for the sake of consistency but...that probably never stuck for obvious reasons lol.

The Sisterhood of Zeldas should gather and settle this matter once and for all.
I PROPOSE...THE "GLIDING FISHH"

It's an extraordinarily good technique, could even be used as an alternative method of recovering if you are recovering high and have strong fundamentals with Sheik, and it can even be used simply as an escape, as if you space it properly, you can transform and grab the ledge once its over for a completely invincible transform.

Edit: Except for the startup frames. But, it could be used out of hitstun and the horizontal momentum is too great for most follow-ups.

 

[4tlas]

I use it all the time, but I never realized why I got the horizontal momentum. Since I wasn't b-reversing/wavebouncing/whatever consistently before, I wasn't always getting it.

You also don't need to jump to get good distance, as sometimes you want to recover low and with your jump as Sheik.

 

[Luis Alonso]

I'm kind of shocked to see how we never did talk about this. Probably because Shielda isn't really as prevalent as it should be?

 

[4tlas]

I totally talked about it in the Triforce of Wisdom thread when we went over Transform, but I didn't call it b-reversing because I didn't realize that's what it was. Now that I know I can be the very best Sheilda main like noone ever was! (Disclaimer: I will never be as good as Zhime)

 

[Luis Alonso]

I've been heavily considering posting a "guide" of sorts for b-reversing with Zelda, since her specials have that unique characteristic to just carry over momentum from b-reversals, but I need a lot of gifs to work with. And I have to confirm whether I'm right about the b-reversing transform thing. Could always ask Zhime about it.

 

[ECHOnce]

It's not that it's never been discussed, but rather it's been brought up, we know about it, and there's not much to discuss because it's sort of basic lol. As you've said, it's super useful (as a Sheilda myself, I use it all the time!), but...it can't make a big enough impact on a match to warrant any in-depth discussion, other than the fact that some gimmicks with it...well...exist lol.

I could only see actual discussion on this if people came up with crazy implications that aren't already intuitive, like getting distance out of it to recover from further away (horizontally), or how using it in tandem with Sheik's up-B gives you plenty of invincibility against edge-guarders who aren't expecting it.

One thing I haven't considered/tested for differences is B-reversed instant transformations out of hitstun (when another Sheik/Zelda of the same color is on the screen), but I doubt that would yield anything that important, either.

EDIT: on another note...I think we're mistaken in considering the horizontal-momentum-transform thingy a B-reverse. I can B-reverse other characters' down-Bs, but I can't get transform to work, even with debug frame-by-frame inputs and 1/4 speed in training. iirc this is just downwards/horizontal momentum like the inputs for Diamond Dives, which is separate from B-reversing it lol.

 

[4tlas]

I'm not sure how I do it, but it seems to work when I slam the control stick in the direction I want to go immediately after inputting the move. Is that not a b-reverse/wavebounce?

I have used it to recover while transforming to Sheik while keeping my jump. I have also used it to escape across the stage while transforming to either character.

 

[ECHOnce]

I'm not sure how I do it, but it seems to work when I slam the control stick in the direction I want to go immediately after inputting the move. Is that not a b-reverse/wavebounce?

Nope. That input would give you a b-reverse in most other cases, but when inputted in the direction away from where Zelda is facing during transform, the b-reverse input does not turn her around. It also doesn't reverse the momentum at all, like a b-reverse normally would.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Horiztonal?? I can get horizontal from Nayru (Nayru's glide) and Farore (Farore's Boost), but not Transform. I can only get vertical from Transform (which I've been calling Transform Jump/Boost)

 

[4tlas]

I do it in almost every single one of my games, Kaeldiar. I'll try to make a gfy for you.

 

[ECHOnce]

Horiztonal?? I can get horizontal from Nayru (Nayru's glide) and Farore (Farore's Boost), but not Transform. I can only get vertical from Transform (which I've been calling Transform Jump/Boost)

Input-wise it's basically the same as what Diamond Diving was, except it sends Zelda at 45ish degrees...instead of super horizontal (like Nayrus Glide) or vertical angles (like Diamond Diving)

 

[Zerudahime]

horizontal movement = zelda > sheik
vertical = sheik > zelda

with transform boosts

 

[Luis Alonso]

Yeah, I noticed that yesterday while playing Zelda dittos with Malachi. I'm wondering why Sheik has superior vertical momentum compared to Zelda when doing that, but craptastic horizontal. It would be nice if it was the other way around.

 

[Luis Alonso]

I have some gfys courtesy of Malachi.

Horizontal Momentum from Horizontal Knockback
Alternate Direction Horizontal Knockback
[Horizontal Momentum from Vertical Knockback
Alternate Direction Vertical Knockback

 

[4tlas]

I have some gfys courtesy of Malachi.

Horizontal Momentum from Horizontal Knockback
Alternate Direction Horizontal Knockback
[Horizontal Momentum from Vertical Knockback
Alternate Direction Vertical Knockback

Do you have any of doing it without the jump? I can't find any examples in my streamed matches, but I do it a lot so I know it works.

 

[Luis Alonso]

I tried doing it, but what I got was a falling Transform that was just slightly angled left or right. It would be really helpful if there was an actual example or something.

 

[4tlas]

I tried doing it, but what I got was a falling Transform that was just slightly angled left or right. It would be really helpful if there was an actual example or something.

I can't do it consistently and don't have a setup to try it on. Its just one of those things where I know its going to work as I do the inputs, or I know it wont. =/

 

[Magus420]

The initial multiplier on transform momentum is 0.5x horizontal/vertical (nayru's is 0.75x horizontal). Since the Sheilda module coding for using those multipliers is screwy, it gets applied to the net character+KB force instead of character, and also doesn't clear horizontal before adding the 50% if you have existing KB.

It's basically the same as how it works on nayru's but you get 50% adds instead of 75%, and the vertical is not reset to 0. Also the move is not reversible.

Nayru's
When you start the move after hitstun and have a significant amount of KB remaining you end up with:
Character Horiz -> (Character Horiz * 1.75) + (KB Horiz * 0.75)
Character Vert -> 0
KB Horiz -> [Same]
KB Vert -> [Same]

If a small amount or no KB remaining:
Character Horiz -> (Character Horiz * 0.75)
Character Vert -> 0
KB Horiz -> 0
KB Vert -> 0

Transform
When you start the move after hitstun and have a significant amount of KB remaining you end up with:
Character Horiz -> (Character Horiz * 1.5) + (KB Horiz * 0.5)
Character Vert -> (Character Vert * 0.5) + (KB Vert * 0.5)
KB Horiz -> [Same]
KB Vert -> [Same]

If a small amount or no KB remaining:
Character Horiz -> (Character Horiz * 0.5)
Character Vert -> (Character Vert * 0.5)
KB Horiz -> 0
KB Vert -> 0



When doing it without jumping you probably were either sent at a low angle (got a large boost from the +50% KB), and/or drifted a bit between the end of hitstun and the down-b (got large boost from the +50% drift speed). Not jumping into it doesn't really do anything that unusual looking for vertical since the existing fall speed and KB boost cancel each other out some, so for a significant effect when not jumping you need a large amount of horizontal KB/drift speed.

 

[Luis Alonso]

So does all of Zelda's specials have this sort of behavior when used out of hitstun @ Magus420 ? Also thanks for the technical insight!

 

[Magus420]

Only Din's doesn't since it doesn't use any special float for initial momentum multiplier. Farore's has one for 0.6667x initial horizontal, and 0.3333x for initial vertical.

 

[4tlas]

So what I'm hearing is that the more horizontally I'm traveling in knockback the more horizontally I can drift during the transform, with or without jump?

 

[ECHOnce]

So what I'm hearing is that the more horizontally I'm traveling in knockback the more horizontally I can drift during the transform, with or without jump?

TL;DR of Magus' explanation:
Most characters' specials moves cancel any KB momentum before applying the specials move momentum. In Zelda's case, the KB momentum isn't cancelled before the special move momentum is applied, and so they overlap.

And since the momentum values are multipliers, any increase in horizontal KB momentum will give her an exponentially longer horizontal boost. This would still be the case if they weren't both multipliers - the momentum boost would still directly increase with the KB momentum - but it wouldn't be nearly as significant.
It'd be like (1+20) --> (10+20), as opposed to (1*20) --> (10*20).

 

[Luis Alonso]

So Farore's has a 2/3 multiplier for horizontal momentum huh? Neat.

Maybe that would be useful if you were sent low and away or even perpendicular from the stage. Quite possible even catch a telecancel off the ground. I'll have to try it out later today.

 

[Luis Alonso]

Also @ Magus420 could you explain why Sheik gains insane vertical momentum off of hitstun for transform, but little to no horizontal? Just like in the example provided.

 

[Magus420]

Sheik compared to Zelda has about 1.5x vertical air jump speed, and 0.8x horizontal air speed.

 

[Luis Alonso]

So because her horizontal air speed is less then one, she gains little to no momentum horizontally?

 

[Magus420]

No, it's less because Sheik moves in the air at a speed of 0.8 max, which is slower than Zelda's air speed of 0.98. She can get horizontal, just not as much as Zelda because the max horizontal speed at the start of down-b is slower. Sheik's goes higher because Sheik's air jump travels upwards faster than Zelda.

 

[Luis Alonso]

Okay, I understand now. Thanks a lot!

 

[4tlas]

So Farore's has a 2/3 multiplier for horizontal momentum huh? Neat.

Maybe that would be useful if you were sent low and away or even perpendicular from the stage. Quite possible even catch a telecancel off the ground. I'll have to try it out later today.

That I can definitely find footage of, if you like. I frequently escape combos by bouncing just out of range with Farore's and then either teleporting away or teleporting back in, depending on how I've conditioned them. Works wonders in teams when the other opponent isn't expecting me to teleport onto them -> Lightning kick.

 

[Luis Alonso]

Ribbons are OP though. No one expects the ribbons.

 

[luxingo]

That I can definitely find footage of, if you like. I frequently escape combos by bouncing just out of range with Farore's

Yeah, that'd be great. It would be interesting seeing the versatility of gliding with Farore's rather than Naryu's.

 

[4tlas]

Yeah, that'd be great. It would be interesting seeing the versatility of gliding with Farore's rather than Naryu's.

I just dodged a bajillion things with it today in tournament, but all off-stream. I'll go through my catalog.

 

[ECHOnce]

I prefer using "Farore's Glide" if it's obvious that they're gonna try follow my slow Nayru's Glide and hit with something from underneath lol. But that's about it. If I could Tele-cancel onto plats more consistently from anywhere I'd prob use it more, but I suck soo bad at it. Everybody should get good at it though. It looks super useful but so annoying to practice compared to other movement tech grinds

 

[WhiteLightnin]

So Farore's has a 2/3 multiplier for horizontal momentum huh? Neat.

Maybe that would be useful if you were sent low and away or even perpendicular from the stage. Quite possible even catch a telecancel off the ground. I'll have to try it out later today.

It is indeed a very useful property. As I'm sure many have experienced, Zelda can have a hard time getting down once she gets knocked into the air and the "Farore's Glide" (aka Farore's Boost) certainly helps with getting back down. At most heights it is the quickest way to get back to the stage. It can be useful for escaping horizontal combos and some vertical juggling as long as you aren't too high above the stage.

 

[Zerudahime]

hehee brawl techs.
farores boosting is the original term...when youre really good you can do this...
https://youtu.be/aUQEGPAtEbQ?t=1m20s

 

[4tlas]

hehee brawl techs.
farores boosting is the original term...when youre really good you can do this...
https://youtu.be/aUQEGPAtEbQ?t=1m20s

Thank god, now I don't have to go find an example. And that reminds me I was going to yell at Apollo for not knowing what was happening there =P

 

[Luis Alonso]

That is so sexy <3

 

[luxingo]

Thank god, now I don't have to go find an example. And that reminds me I was going to yell at Apollo for not knowing what was happening there =P

That's not how you'd use it though, since the much greater vertical momentum resulted from being caped by Mario. You were referring to using it out of hitstun normally, right?

But no pressure in finding an example if you don't want to.