JST5, 2 & 3 December, Holland, RESULTS: Amsah 1st, CJ 2nd, EK 3rd, Helios 4th!!!!!!!!

[Marc]

Note that mostly unsatisfied people voice their opinion. Because I am familiar with this concept (I even learn this at university), I always give my opinion to counter bull**** arguments like that. You also forgot to include the people who aren't even aware of this discussion.

EDIT: Aimed at Helios, obviously.

 

[FireMan.EXE]

Now now Marc, leave the personal attacks to Helios. Besides, he does actually have a point, but pressuring Jeffrey to change to rules he doesn't want himself won't lead to anything.
And Helios: if you don't find "it's the only thing we've ever done" a valid argument, I fail to see why "everyone does it!" is a valid agrument too.

 

[Marc]

I'm not personally attacking him, I'm simply stating the fact that satisfied people don't need to be all over the topic saying how satisfied they are.

 

[Helios]

Fireman, the entire world stopped using broken slob picks sometime after TG6, which was during the summer 04. Ever since, only the dutch use it. I find this odd.

Regarding a possible change, it isn't hard at all. Just announce "We're doing ASP!!", and that's it.
I can see that Marc is crying like a baby over the thought of losing his broken rules, but if that really is his only way of clinging to the top 10, then I guess that sucks for him.

I'm not the only one trying to influence the rules here, but I'm doing it for the good of the community, seeing as how ASP is the way to go in the community, whereas using broken counterpicks is nothing but counterproductive and will result in the Netherlands, and ultimately the European community failing to challenge the American counterpart.

No matter how patriotic one wants to be, it's more than clear to see that the American scene is the greatest influence and source of inspiration when it comes to European smash. This is not a bad thing. Not at all.
The Americans have the biggest, most competitive and most flourishing smash scene in the world, and this is mainly due to the fact that they travel a lot, and they've come to an agreement when it comes to a basic ruleset. Some variations still occur, like stagebanning/no stagebanning, or different stages allowed, but one thing remains clear. ASP is always used, and this clearly benefits the scene in general.

As for the matter at hand. The Netherlands will have to adapt to a common ruleset sooner or later, or Europe as a continent will never grow as strong as we potentially could. I find it moronic to cling to such an antique ruleset, when the rest of the world has moved on and found greater things.

EDIT: Marc - How can I be satisfied with a ruleset that counteracts the wealth and prospect of a united european smash scene?

 

[bornfidelity.com]

And Helios: if you don't find "it's the only thing we've ever done" a valid argument, I fail to see why "everyone does it!" is a valid agrument too.

That's not actually valid, because 'we always did it' points at NO discussion and the ignorance of a small group while 'everyone does it' states that the masses are satisfied with it, and that it has been debated over to convince the other rule-makers to agree...

 

[Marc]

I've only been to one tournament after RoS3, which was only a week after that. So I really couldn't care less about my ranking. I've also always been stable in my performance throughout different rulesets and most of the things I've changed so far actually don't benefit me, usually it's quite the opposite. The fact that you have to resort to remarks like that, means you're losing, or at least you feel you are.

 

[Marc]

EDIT: Marc - How can I be satisfied with a ruleset that counteracts the wealth and prospect of a united european smash scene?

LOL, now you want unison? You are the only Swede who ever showed up here during our Golden Age, which kinda ended after DT0. When we made a move and came to RoS3, we had people trashtalking and even throwing garbage at us (I'm looking at you, Svampen and Neophos). In this topic the Swedes have done nothing but whining about the rules and/or calling us biased without a good reason. I for one, couldn't care less about unison, we already have good ties with the UK and French scene, without being one big family.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

I'm not personally attacking him, I'm simply stating the fact that satisfied people don't need to be all over the topic saying how satisfied they are.

*points at previous posts*

couldn't resist

i don't agree with helios' offensive ways but he *does* have a point every now and then. but i can see why jeffz0r doesn't want to change stuff anymore, as well - that's one of the downsides to being a lone host, you have to decide by yourself and you can never help to be a bit biased, intentional or not.
with atm, whenever there would be stuff like this, the entire crew would get to decide on it, with the more experienced ones having more influence, and that way if you chose sth for yourself you'd be told about it by the crewmembers.

however this way, when something gets noticed thats not quite right, the only way of sharing is publically which gets a lot of people involved, a lot of debate and some flames eventually resulting inevitably in a 'lock-up'; the host saying 'this is my decision and no discussion about it'. (this happened with the talk about the stages as well)
but since we are in a community here I think there should *always* be room for discussion.

that being said

just five more days to go yay ^^

 

[Jeffz0r]

Regarding a possible change, it isn't hard at all. Just announce "We're doing ASP!!", and that's it.

We're not doing ASP!! And that's it >_>

I can see that Marc is crying like a baby over the thought of losing his broken rules, but if that really is his only way of clinging to the top 10, then I guess that sucks for him.

That has got to be the worst argument ever, since the only tournament he's been to with ASP (as for as I know?) was RoS3, and he got 9th there XD

 

[Helios]

Marc, I don't think personal drama is needed here. The fact that you can't get along with certain individuals does not mean we're unfriendly. I would very much like to see better bonds between the different regions, and the only thing I see stopping it now is your conservatism.

The fact that no swedes but me travelled to holland was only due to the fact that no other swedes but me had the means to do so. Now we do, and there's 7 of us, compared to 2 last time. Remember, at DT9 there had been NO swedish tournaments whatsoever. We didn't have any message boards, there wasn't even a community. Now look how far we've come, with 90+ people tournaments, and people travelling all over the place.
This has been possible mainly due to an open mindset and the will to incorporate other ideas into your own.

Either way, like I said, this is seriously counterproductive, and it's time you guys stepped it up and showed the will to take your scene to higher levels. How are we ever going to get our top players to the same level as american or japanese players, if we can't even agree to a single ruleset?

 

[Marc]

Marc, I don't think personal drama is needed here. The fact that you can't get along with certain individuals does not mean we're unfriendly. I would very much like to see better bonds between the different regions, and the only thing I see stopping it now is your conservatism.

Excuse me, but you were the one who started getting personal. Well actually, other Swedes called me biased too, but not as an individual. I am also very much aware of the fact that there are many 'good' Swedes and we've had a good time at RoS3, besides a few issues. However, stuff like that does stand in the way of unison. And I like how you think I have the power to stop bonding between regions all by myself, but that isn't very realistic.

The fact that no swedes but me travelled to holland was only due to the fact that no other swedes but me had the means to do so. Now we do, and there's 7 of us, compared to 2 last time. Remember, at DT9 there had been NO swedish tournaments whatsoever. We didn't have any message boards, there wasn't even a community. Now look how far we've come, with 90+ people tournaments, and people travelling all over the place.
This has been possible mainly due to an open mindset and the will to incorporate other ideas into your own.

Then why are you all saying your way is the only way?

Either way, like I said, this is seriously counterproductive, and it's time you guys stepped it up and showed the will to take your scene to higher levels. How are we ever going to get our top players to the same level as american or japanese players, if we can't even agree to a single ruleset?

Telling us 'to step it up' (how overused, really) won't help you one bit. You are basically implying were stuck in n00bness, while the superior Swedes aren't. Kinda weird a Dutchie got #1 in Sweden last time, eh.

 

[FireMan.EXE]

Helios, I've been reading your posts on the last pages, and you are just blatantly attacking people for not getting your way. Now I've met you once (being ATM/X-TC, I don't know) and you seemed like a nice guy, but frankly, the way you're acting now, is like an ***. Calling our rules antique and outdated is offensive, and won't help your argument one little bit. I can see your frustration for voicing your opinion, and not getting your way, but Jeff is the host, he decided, let it be.
And now I'm completely freaking done with this. It's completely messing up the good vibe I had about the tourney. x_x

 

[Helios]

Marc, that one dutchie is in favour of our (the now general european) ruleset. He's got the talent and the will to evolve that most of you seem to lack now. And he's not hesitant to point that out, either.

ASP is the only real alternative now, seeing as how broken slob picks and regular slob picks have been used, and abandoned, by every other scene. This speaks its clear language.

I can understand you not wanting any major changes, seeing as how it wouldn't benefit you personally. But this is not the point.
In order for a community to prosper and compete against other communities, there needs to be a certain unity and a general idea of how things are done. If every country had its own rules, that would mean soo much trouble and soo much confusion, I can't even imagine it.

And yes, I know you personally couldn't care less about us being able to compete with americans and japanese. You'll disappear from the scene soon enough anyway, like you've already said. Then why make such a big point in sticking to your old ruleset, that's clearly not suitable for top level play, nor is it internationally compatible.
Why not just take this one for the team, and see how it goes?
I assure you all that this brings for a better, more fair tournament experience, and I'll even help clear out any confusions myself, both here and at the tourney itself.

Oh and yeah, a list of people that have already posted here or told me personally that they are in favour of ASP/MLG rules.

Helios
Ek
Svampen
Aniolas
Sparken
Jadde
Euan
Doug
BF
Ryuker
Amsah
Nnja
Rens
JD
Thomaz
Ivo
Luma
Z-N Freak
Smash Alex
Doraki


Jeffzor, please consider the fact that many of your soon-to-be guests are not too happy with the current ruleset. As a tournament host you may sometimes have to meet the needs of the masses


EDIT:
Fireman - What can I say, your rules ARE antique and outdated. That's nothing I'm saying to piss people off, but they haven't been used anywhere but in holland since 2004. That's nothing to argue about.

 

[Ryuker]

Kind of a wrong example to use amsah since he's one of the dutchies that has not closed him self of of improvement or new tactics techniques so on and most importantly has stepped it up in a short time and not to mention is seconding the mlg ruleset.!
I'd like to see back the bond of country's we had at ros 3 in which the country's really supported each other( mainly it's own country). Saying its just jeff's tourney is not really right IMO ( although we owe him a lot of gratitude and respect for organizing this) for the ruleset. Its international and so we have to make a ruleset that lives up to that. Futher more I would like to see some good reasons why mlg rules are not right :S.
I would like to quote faab :

" It's time to get more serious with this game"- faab

Now what can be any more serious then a rule set that is encouraging competitive play , character diversity, improvement and new strategy's and has been widely accepted as the best ruleset?
I don't mind improvising experimenting and toying with the ruleset in dutch only tourney or small once ( be there foreigners or not) but for a international tournament I find it rather stupid to have a ruleset that most people are not happy with :S.

 

[bornfidelity.com]

helios, you can put me on that list twice

 

[Z-N_Freak]

Why is everybody so fired up X_X
It is about some rulezz...
Well I understand that it is a big issue for all of you pro smashers, I only think it looks a bit more fair (reading Helios' posts. )

I am not attacking anyone, but our rules now have not been promoted by anyone as good. People only have been defending them and that they don't suck.

I don't really see the point in this discussion cause in the end Jeffzor has the last word and he already said that he is not going to change them (I respect his decision). Maybe we can continue this discussion somewhere else cause it won't have an effect on this tourney (I think)...
But maybe some other dutch host is open for this ruleset and in the end Jeffzor will be to, but by forcing/flaming/bashing him I don't see why he is going to change them. Helios, you are now only making him hate this ruleset more....

 

[Doraki]

I'm simply stating the fact that satisfied people don't need to be all over the topic saying how satisfied they are.

I agree with that, but there's a difference between "satisfied" and "opposed to change". Are you saying you always take the conservative side even when there're lots of valid reasons for change ?

Jeffzor, it would do you some good if you could provide reasons as to why you absolutely don't want to see asp to your tournament except that you don't want it. Surely you thought about asp and considered which ruleset you liked the most, so you must have something to say about it, even if it's along the lines of "I flipped a coin and asp lost :/ :/".

I do think asp is more fair and more fun than broken slob picks, even though it doesn't mean much for me, but maybe some people like to change their character a lot. someone who can play a lot of chars really well should be able to use all of them if he feels like it, without taking the risk of a massive counterpick later.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

**** it, Advanced slob picks for the win!

Slob picks are too broken, I mean, imagine that... I would just choose the worst stage and the worst character for my opponent and he would get owned. Like Marth + FD for fastfallers. This would make important only the first match..

 

[Linkje]

Why is everybody so fired up X_X
It is about some rulezz...
Well I understand that it is a big issue for all of you pro smashers, I only think it looks a bit more fair (reading Helios' posts. )

I am not attacking anyone, but our rules now have not been promoted by anyone as good. People only have been defending them and that they don't suck.

I don't really see the point in this discussion cause in the end Jeffzor has the last word and he already said that he is not going to change them (I respect his decision). Maybe we can continue this discussion somewhere else cause it won't have an effect on this tourney (I think)...
But maybe some other dutch host is open for this ruleset and in the end Jeffzor will be to, but by forcing/flaming/bashing him I don't see why he is going to change them. Helios, you are now only making him hate this ruleset more....

you don't have the right to aply to this topic believe me I want it to be but it's not personal.
I'm not going to say anything about this because I'm not in the smash scene long enough to know any freaking thing about this I know that I would like something to change but please take a break think it threw make an whole messenger screen of this and discuss it there you'll be able to have the opinion of the top players there and stuff .

gl hf

 

[Z-N_Freak]

you don't have the right to aply to this topic believe me I want it to be but it's not personal.
I'm not going to say anything about this because I'm not in the smash scene long enough to know any freaking thing about this I know that I would like something to change but please take a break think it threw make an whole messenger screen of this and discuss it there you'll be able to have the opinion of the top players there and stuff .

gl hf

I have the right to post thus I have the right to aply to everything I want to. I get your point, but I like to give my opinion about it and if they (the better smashers) think I am to bad to understand any of this they won't take my opinion in the final judgement. I don't really care.

And what is the problem of me discussing with them? I can only learn stuff and I can only learn from my mistakes.
and what does gl hf mean?

anyways, I agree with the fact that this can be done somewhere else (I already mentioned it ^^ ) It screws up the thought of going to this tourney as you are all saying that it is going to suck cause of the rules. I don't really think so cause we still have MM's and other things like that (Shoe likes all the beermatches, lol =P )

 

[bornfidelity.com]

gl hf = good luck have fun

I don't think this should be done elsewhere (like with the stage proposition of CJ, JD etc) because anyone can comment on the discussion this way.

I second Doraki asking Jeffz0r for explaining why. I'm not saying he *has* to, but maybe it would clear things up.

 

[Mr P]

I agree with helios ASP FTW.

 

[Jeffz0r]

I already explained it, I'm not doing it again. Live with it.

 

[Marc]

Marc, that one dutchie is in favour of our (the now general european) ruleset. He's got the talent and the will to evolve that most of you seem to lack now. And he's not hesitant to point that out, either.

He also hasn't posted any arguments because 'writing an essay is too much of a bother'. Also, you and Ryuker COMPLETELY miss the point of me mentioning Amsah. Amsah has been to DUTCH tournaments with DUTCH rules mostly, and the point I was making is that it doesn't take ASP to 'step it up'.

ASP is the only real alternative now, seeing as how broken slob picks and regular slob picks have been used, and abandoned, by every other scene. This speaks its clear language.

It hasn't been abandoned by any other scene and it's not the only way. I'm also not completely against ASP, I am against implementing it now.

I can understand you not wanting any major changes, seeing as how it wouldn't benefit you personally. But this is not the point.

Hardly anything benefits me personally, Sheik is about the most neutral character in the game when it comes to stages.

In order for a community to prosper and compete against other communities, there needs to be a certain unity and a general idea of how things are done. If every country had its own rules, that would mean soo much trouble and soo much confusion, I can't even imagine it.

Err, every country HAS its own rules. And it works like a charm.

And yes, I know you personally couldn't care less about us being able to compete with americans and japanese. You'll disappear from the scene soon enough anyway, like you've already said. Then why make such a big point in sticking to your old ruleset, that's clearly not suitable for top level play, nor is it internationally compatible.

First I'm biased, then I'm not even in the scene anymore. What's it gonna be?

As for your list, I can do the same against ASP. WHILE I AM NOT EVEN THAT AGAINST IT.

And for the last time, I am NOT the host.

Kind of a wrong example to use amsah since he's one of the dutchies that has not closed him self of of improvement or new tactics techniques so on and most importantly has stepped it up in a short time and not to mention is seconding the mlg ruleset.!
I'd like to see back the bond of country's we had at ros 3 in which the country's really supported each other( mainly it's own country). Saying its just jeff's tourney is not really right IMO ( although we owe him a lot of gratitude and respect for organizing this) for the ruleset. Its international and so we have to make a ruleset that lives up to that. Futher more I would like to see some good reasons why mlg rules are not right :S.

As for Amsah, I've already explained my reasoning in my response to Helios. We're obviously talking about unison here, not nationalism, so I don't really get your RoS3 point here. The point is not that MLG rules are all that bad, the point is that these rules are good also and already decided upon. People throwing a tantrum now is simply ridiculous.

Can't really respond to your criticism after that, since that belongs in the stage debate we've already been through for the most part.

I agree with that, but there's a difference between "satisfied" and "opposed to change". Are you saying you always take the conservative side even when there're lots of valid reasons for change ?

No, and one point no foreigner, including Helios, seems to know about: I was partly responsible for the changes the Dutch ruleset have been through after RoS3, which included taking out stages that have been banned in the US for years and which was basically a big update. I always take my stance based on the problem, I'm not necessarily old fashioned, although I am old school.

 

[Helios]

Yes, the fact that you had Yoshi's Island (the one with the pipes) on for counter picking was obviously wrong, and you did a good job taking some of the more ******** stages off completely. However, your slob picks ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR TOP LEVEL PLAY, just like Yoshi's Island.
Why? Because they're broken.
Why? Because they enable people to counterpick ridiculously tough character/stage combinations such as Marth+YS, Peach+Mute City, etc.
If it were regular slob picks, I'd know when I was fighting a marth, so I could just ban YS at the start. But here, I might be facing a peach, so I ban Mute City, and then I win, and the peach switches to marth that goes to YS. I'm completely screwed over, and it's a win for marth. Get my point?
THIS is why your slob picks do not work at top level play. They're just too overpowered, even unbeatable in certain situations, and we will ultimately come to a point where whoever wins the first game of the set, and thus the advantage of having the last counterpick, will win the entire set.
NOW do you get my point?

 

[Jeffz0r]

Marth on YS is not an instant win, not for anyone >_<
There have definitely been sets where the person who won the first match, still lost the set, with these rules. I'm sure about this, cause I experienced it myself at XTC3 vs MrSilver.
He wasn't Marth on YS, but still...

 

[Masamune]

I'm not going to this tournament, but I still want to say my opinion on the rules. I don't think it's fair that you can choose both stage and character while the winner has to stay. Like Helios said, this will make you able to choose insanely hard combinations and that the winner of the first match will win the set. I think this will make all the sets become 3-2 and that this will give the worse player a better chance to get a lucky win.

 

[Aniolas]

Jeffz0r:

But don't you agree that ASP is much more fair than the dutch ruleset?

 

[Helios]

Marth on YS is not an instant win, not for anyone >_<
There have definitely been sets where the person who won the first match, still lost the set, with these rules. I'm sure about this, cause I experienced it myself at XTC3 vs MrSilver.

No really, I'm not saying this is true 100% of the time, BUT it sure as hell makes it more likely.
Besides, I'm talking top level play here.

Updated list:

Helios
Ek
Svampen
Aniolas
Sparken
Jadde
Euan
Doug
BF
Ryuker
Amsah
Nnja
Rens
JD
Thomaz
Ivo
Luma
Z-N Freak
Smash Alex
Doraki
Coen
Dax
Faab
Masamune
Captain Jack (!)


There you go, CJ says ASP is used in america and japan, and he would like to see it used at this tourney aswell. How many more names do you need jeffrey?

 

[bornfidelity.com]

Marth on YS is not an instant win, not for anyone >_<
There have definitely been sets where the person who won the first match, still lost the set, with these rules. I'm sure about this, cause I experienced it myself at XTC3 vs MrSilver.
He wasn't Marth on YS, but still...

LOL
obviously Helios is talking about same levels of skill
unless you want to compare yourself to matt (silver) which would be DOUBLE LOL

gawd you wouldnt be able to take silver with LPU on a team with friendly fire off

 

[Jeffz0r]

I 3stocked Silver's Ganondorf with my Peach, he really isn't that good anymore. With fox he only 1stocked me too.

@Helios: you put JD on that list, but he shouldn't be on it...
Jeffz0r says:
you'd rather see ASP than the current rules?
Jeffz0r says:
just say yes or no...
Joanna Dark says:
actually, I don't care, since there aren't many stages and that I can ban mute city, the thing helios talks about won't happen to me that much
Joanna Dark says:
that's no, I wouldn't rather see ASP than the current rules

 

[Helios]

It wouldn't benefit him personally, then. But for a fair tournament, I think he can still agree that ASP is the way to go. Either way, there's plenty more people who agree on this one.

Jeffrey, I really don't see the point of going against everyone. It just makes it seem desperate and ignorant. Now, I've told you the way things are run outside of the Netherlands, and many people joined in and presented their views.

Would you PLEASE sit down, think this through and try to understand why everyone wants ASP?

 

[bornfidelity.com]

I 3stocked Silver's Ganondorf with my Peach

what stage

 

[Ryuker]

Ofcourse the fact that jd should be off the list then makes the other people on the list not a high enough number to see there is a big demand for ASP>.>

 

[SMASH ALEX]

for the record id didnt read what you wrote i just want to know if you are coming to the tourny!

I'm not coming to this one, but I sure hope you are coming to RoS4 in Sweden this summer

 

[Enycecricket]

I'm not coming to this one, but I sure hope you are coming to RoS4 in Sweden this summer

only if you team with me!

 

[Nihonjin]

Helios, you forgot Zeta :o

 

[Marc]

You can even put me on that list, Helios, since I'm not really against ASP, I just find it ridiculous to implement it now at this tournament for reasons I have already specified. Just so that's clear. People should also learn to respect the host's decisions, or just 'to respect' in general.

 

[Helios]

Marc, that's very noble of you
However, having your ruleset meet international standards for an international tournament is nothing unheard of. Surely you must understand that =)
And like I said earlier on, it may be the 11th hour, but it's NOT too late. There's half a week left, plenty of time for people to find out.

 

[Marc]

I'm not unsatisfied with the current ruleset, but I'm pretty much neutral towards ASP, although I do think it benefits the Swedes more than anyone else. I also think it is wrong to say it's the ultimate rule, make personal attacks or make up facts (although maybe not intentional). If the host decides to implement it after all, I'll respect that, although I would find it incredibly weak of him as a person. It won't change much for me at the tournament itself though.

And Swedes, next time read the rules right away.