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Journey of the Star Lord - Vs Bowser

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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"An evil dragon, hmmm? You wouldn't be the first one I battled. Although you seem somewhat....gentle. Certainly more gentle than Medeus was. Still, in the name of justice I must wield my blade against you."

Greetings Bowser forum. My name is Emblem Lord and I offer you an opportunity to partake in a very fun project that will not only increase your individual skill levels, but your knowledge as well. This is a challenge thread, but also a match-up discussion thread with a twist. Consider this an official challenge from the Marth forums. Now at this point I encourage any Bowser players that want to learn this match to post in this thread. Of course I am participating in the challenge as well, but other Marths probably will too. Who over posts please only do so with the intent to fight against Marth players online. As we engage in battle we will talk about the match and our experiences here. What we learned, what we had trouble with, what was easy to deal with and so on. After a 2 week time period the "journey" ends and the Marth forums will move on. At that time I will personally write a match-up analysis. Don't worry. People tell me I'm pretty good at it. The match-up break down will be in sections. Pros and Cons, long range, mid range, close range/footsies, traps/edge guarding and general summary.

I will not give a match-up ratio personally. That's not what I feel this journey is about.

For those wishing to challenge me, my friend code is under my name. I live in New Jersey on the east coast of the USA. I only wish to play people on the EC of the US or Canada or the Midwest of the US. Anything else is too far imo.

Also if anyone posts any vids I will personally critique as many of them as I can.

Let the journey into discovery commence. I hope it proves fruitful and that many new rivalries and friendships are born.
 

B!squick

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Look at that, more match-up discussion topics outside of the match-up discussion topic. Ah well. We're not doing much in the "real" topic anyway and it's more thought out than any of the others.

Additionally, I personally wouldn't put too much stock in online matches. In fact, I wouldn't even put too much stock in tourny matches either as I've heard lag can be a problem even locally. I don't think any real discussing can take place until the WiiU version comes out.

All of that aside, I think the match-up is about even-ish. Marth's sword is shorter and Bowser has some intangible hitboxes now. Even without his command grab I think Bowser comes off better in this game than in previous ones.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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If you don't want to participate thats cool. Consider this it's own entity. And yeah online is not ideal but its still great for learning spacing and match-up nuances like punishes and the like.
 

Kooky Koopa

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Hey Emblem

I'd love to participate in this challenge, fighting other players is always fun. My FC is in my profile and just drop me a line or refer other Marth's to PM me and we can Smash a fair few. Just a note however that I am working off GMT UK time so I think we have around a 5 hour gap? I'm sure we can find a way to fit things in. I'd suggest however most of the discussion should take place between PMs and a conclusive write up should be posted here, then we can discuss the views. Otherwise it may take up too much space.
 
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Jerodak

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I've actually met a few really solid Marth and Lucina players. Just based on my own experiences, this match up doesn't seem too bad for either side. That aside, I'll make this as objective as possible and just talk about what each character can do to the other.

I'll start with Marth, he has larger disjoints and the tipper mechanic, and generates his hitboxes faster, this gives him a pretty solid advantage in the mid-range footsie game, and he'll generally be able to outpoke Bowser pretty often if he maintains the tipper distance and keeps Bowser out. The fast walk speed allows him to position quickly without much risk so this probably isn't too hard for an experienced Marth player. The occasional and properly timed use of shield breaker is a powerful aerial mix-up tool against Bowser whose shield is very important in his defensive game thanks to his good OOS punish options, so making Bowser afraid of shielding can really hinder his defensive game. Counter is also really good since it's very strong and can easily kill Bowser if you predict something like back air, and I've been K.O'd by a countered Back air once at around 75%. Marth can gimp Bowser offstage by hitting him out of the second jump with Fair strings or Dair spikes; walk off counter against fortress can also work.

Now for Bowser, his disjoints aren't as big but he still has amazing spacing tools and it's entirely possible for Bowser to turtle against Marth. Ftilt and Up tilt both control important parts of the screen and have great range, his jab has a nice balance of range and speed and can be used to create mix-ups. The pivot grab is quite an amazing tool, it has massive range and can be used to punish whiffed attacks to great effect. Firebreath also controls a very important area, and can be used to catch Marth if he's lingering in that space too much or it can be used as a poke to tack on some damage and apply pressure. The command grab is pretty useful since it wins against counter and shields, it also puts on safe damage and K.Os at a reasonable percent. On top of that, it can be used in the air to create mix-ups similar to how Marth would use shield breaker except that the klaw can also bait rolls and spot dodges, though it does have less range. The Bowser bomb is also a useful tool, because it blows up ledge hopping, which Marths seem to enjoy doing. It even hits a little below the ledge on the first hit so spacing it right can cover most options that require releasing the ledge. It's also a good way to get a ledge trump during Marth's linear recovery. Down tilt is also pretty good at stuffing ledge hops and it can also beat certain ledge tech options as well with the right timing and spacing, also Marth isn't that hard for Bowser to gimp either. Hit him out of his second jump, especially with back air or Dtilt and that should be a wrap.

Also, I'll be up for some matches if anyone is interested, I still have a lot to learn about this match-up and I wouldn't mind improving my neutral game either; my friend code is under my name.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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Jerodak I will add you. You are NC so latency should be fine.
 

Kooky Koopa

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Just a heads up, we should be lag free so long as our internet connection on both ends is stable. Geography isn't an issue when it comes to predicting if it will be laggy or not in Smash 4. Just if you reconsider based on that, I am still interested in participating and maybe that might help my case.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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I have great respect for Emblem Lord. Count me in, as none of my friends have picked up Marth earnestly. I could greatly use the match up experience. Let's have some fun.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
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Added Jerodak, Kooky and Ultima. I will be on prolly till about 1am EST. So thats about 7 hours. If you want to play please post up.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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Added Jerodak, Kooky and Ultima. I will be on prolly till about 1am EST. So that's about 7 hours. If you want to play please post up.
Whoa, that's insane. I'll be busy, till 12am EST, so I might just barely make it. Don't hold out for me, though. I hope Jerodak and Kooky can represent today. Happy sm4shing.

Oh, also, PM me if you use Axon, Google+ vid/voice chat, teamspeak, or skype.
 

Kinslayer

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I'd be happy to assist in this "study". I play Marth and this seems a fun way to test out the match up and learn a few things as well.

If you want you can message me on here or on skype: Crimson_Assassin
 
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Random4811

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I'll be varyingly available between now and next friday, hit me up if any bowsers are interested in showing me their moves. Just PM me here on Smashboards.
 
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Jerodak

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I'll be available for most of the day, just let me know if you're interested, sorry about the delay on this.
 
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S_B

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I'll try to find time to play you.

But I have to note something: Bowser isn't evil. Ganodorf? Sure, but Bowser is just a hopeless romantic who has a hard time expressing his feelings instead of acting them out. Play any of the Paper Mario games/Mario RPG and you'll see Bowser's true nature: he sacrifices himself to save Mario and Peach on at least one occasion. Then there's the ending cutscene of SMS:

http://youtu.be/3RlMCe6mHP0?t=1m30s

Also, he's a single father raising 8 kids! Cut him some slack! :p

I actually do take some issue with Sakurai's portrayal of Bowser: he makes him look like a feral, crazed animal that can only growl and snarl when he's actually more accustomed to laughing and even has a voice actor (Kenny James).

Same with DK, really...
 
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S_B

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Didn't he try to become a god and rule the universe?
Could he be any worse than the bozos who rule it now? :p

Again, Bowser's more of the "bully" type villain than "evil", and no offense to Miyamoto, but Alpha Dream's portrayal of Bowser is a billion times better than his. Miyamoto would have Bowser eating kittens if it served as the appropriate setup for whatever game concepts he had planned for the next Mario game, but Alpha Dream rarely has Bowser as an actual antagonist. Naturally, when Miyamoto wanted Mario running around on mini planets, Bowser had to try to conquer the galaxy or something as an excuse for the setup.

He was also one of the three characters you played as in Super Paper Mario (the same game where he believed he was sacrificing himself to save Mario and Peach).

He's definitely angry and confused, but again, not evil because, when it comes down to it, he thinks of others before himself.

To put it another way, I cannot fathom a story arc in which Ganondorf sacrifices himself to save Hyrule because that mofo is EVIL...
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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no offense to Miyamoto, but Alpha Dream's portrayal of Bowser is a billion times better than his
...
To put it another way, I cannot fathom a story arc in which Ganondorf sacrifices himself to save Hyrule because that mofo is EVIL...
Miyamoto has explicitly expressed that Bowser and Mario are actors on a stage, and, at the end of the day, good and evil are not applicable This is consistent across the games. In most of the games, his troopas LOVE him (though Mario RPG really set the tone for this), and Galaxy is essentially his (very successful) attempt at creating a paradise for himself and his troops. His antagonism towards Peach and the toads have always been lukewarm, even when he crystallized some of them in Galaxy 1 (arguably his most serious-face). I love him for his sense of humor in the Paper Mario games and Mario & Luigi (Alpha Dream), though, and it's been pretty clear that Miyamoto is okay with His Silliness being a part of an overall identity, as seen in 3D Land and 3D World.

Ganondorf is interesting. While Aonuma has never stated Ganondorf, not to be confused with Ganon, as evil, he is frequently portrayed as being filled with uncontrollable hatred (presumably from the curse). It was in WW that we are shown an evolving character, capable of attaining a level of wisdom that may come close to defying that hatred (and therefore the closest he ever got to overcoming the curse and the trails to take the Triforce). Ganondorf was close enough to Wisdom to the point where he acknowledged the true meaning behind his coveting of Hyrule (which was for its land, something he couldn't save because the curse wouldn't let him). The whole King of Evil thing has become a bit of a joke after that. In TP he never gets to accomplish anything he had set out to do originally because of his typical madness. It's a shame.

Back to the topic, I'll be available all day. PM me if you want a match.
 
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Random4811

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After my matches with @ UltimaLuminaire UltimaLuminaire , I've come to the conclusion that the matchup is over all equal.
Neither side has anything the other can't deal with easily. It comes down to who the better player is. In this case, It was Ultima.

Also, Lag. Lag was a much better player than both of us. It makes me wish that I could meld my router and my DS together, and eliminate any wireless latency on my part. And for local matches (this is a side note), there was some sort of connector cable harkening back to the GBA days- that actually worked well.

For Marth's, SB will out prioritize several of Bowsers moves, especially in the air. Its a good poke, and can be a deadly punish. Nair gets some good mileage in neutral and in the air. Retreating fair is a really important tool (and that sucks, because I'm awful at doing them on the 3DS. Can't wait till I get my hands on the Wii U). If you are quick with your counters, I recommend Iai counter. If not, keep default counter. A lot of Bowsers moves have some fair start up that can lead to a counter punish. Especially Fsmash. If you can counter his Fsmash near the ledge with Iai counter at lower percents, expect an early stock. Shield dropping attacks -> dtilt is a pretty good trap. Aerial DB can see some good use here depending on the move.

Big tips- if you can see it coming, Dolphin Slash Bowsers Whirling fortress before it gets a chance to hit you. Unfortunately for me, I'm terrible at seeing it coming, and thus terrible at punishing it. When it comes to his fire breath, try to move towards the end of it if you are hit by it, and shield it. If you can avoid it, you should jump over it and come at bowser with an aerial. dair, bair, and nair should all work here, but I normally used dair.

For Bowsers, it seems like your best tools are ftilt/jab? (not sure what it was that was actually hitting me, but it looked like either two consecutive ftilts or jab. Not sure.), fire breath, grounded whirling fortress, dtilt, dsmash, dash grab, and usmash. Dair and down B are very much situationally useful. They're super easy for Marth to punish, but super good if Bowser can land them. I can't say much in depth though, as I'm not sure what makes them useful or how, not having much knowledge on Bowser.
 

UltimaLuminaire

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Big tips- if you can see it coming, Dolphin Slash Bowsers Whirling fortress before it gets a chance to hit you. Unfortunately for me, I'm terrible at seeing it coming, and thus terrible at punishing it. When it comes to his fire breath, try to move towards the end of it if you are hit by it, and shield it. If you can avoid it, you should jump over it and come at bowser with an aerial. dair, bair, and nair should all work here, but I normally used dair.

For Bowsers, it seems like your best tools are ftilt/jab? (not sure what it was that was actually hitting me, but it looked like either two consecutive ftilts or jab. Not sure.), fire breath, grounded whirling fortress, dtilt, dsmash, dash grab, and usmash. Dair and down B are very much situationally useful. They're super easy for Marth to punish, but super good if Bowser can land them. I can't say much in depth though, as I'm not sure what makes them useful or how, not having much knowledge on Bowser.
To further clarify on Bowser:
  • If an opponent shields all of Fortress, we are also open to every punish in the book.
  • Jab is the only 2 hit consecutive punch we have. Ftilt is a giant back-hand, and it can be angled up in order to hit short hop approaches on a read.
  • DSmash is totally unsafe to throw out for Bowser. The last quarter of the animation is useless spinning. No sane Bowser will throw it out without understanding what they want to do with it. DSmash's only saving grace is a decent disjointed hit box on either side of it. It otherwise has no priority above that. DSmash is used as a more damaging punish for cross-ups, but requires a hard read.
Everything else sounds pretty accurate to how things played out.
 

Emblem Lord

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Ok finally got my wii u lan adapter. I will be jumping right into this full force now. Everyone please add me.
 

Jerodak

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After finally playing a long set vs Emblem Lord, I'll go ahead and expand on what I said earlier. I still believe that the match-up is pretty even, and I don't feel like I need to change much from my original post, but I will add that when offstage, look out for stage spikes from up B when Marth is recovering. Also, it seems like the Marth still has an advantage on FD while we still have the edge on battlefield. Outside of that, everything in my original post seems to be pretty accurate, it all comes down to footies and stage control. Whoever is forced offstage will have a pretty substantial disadvantage since both characters can edgeguard each other equally well. Keep as much of the stage behind you as possible.
 

Emblem Lord

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Guys I'm still down to play anyone. Also I know enough about both chars that can do the full write-up at anytime. Again though I would love to fight more of you guys.

It's all about the level ups.
 

Emblem Lord

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I didn't want to double post, but so be it. Thank you everyone for your efforts. I have compiled my notes and the write-up is here.
The write-up will be split into pros and cons, long range, mid range, footsies, close range, edge guarding, general summary and overview. Again I will not give a match-up ratio. That is NOT what this is about. With that said, here it is.

Marth

Pros +

+ Falchion gives his attacks a disjointed hitbox
+ Strong footsies due to good pokes and solid mobility
+ Great edgeguarding
+ Strong OoS game/punish game
+ Good at trapping and getting out of traps
+ Great killing potential due to tippers

Cons -

- Lightweight. He gets knocked around easy and can die early
- Commits hard to many of his best attacks such as Dancing Blade
- Can be too reliant on traps to secure kills/ No kill confirms


Bowser

Pros +

+ Heavyweight. Will not be KOed easy unless tippered
+ Huge damage. Trades are in his favor and makes his pokes dangerous
+ Solid footsies due to range of his pokes
+ Command grab great for mix-ups
+ Extremely high knockback on kill moves means he is always in the fight
+ Up B OoS is the best defensive option in the game
+ In a constant state of light armor. Will not flinch from weak moves.

Cons -

- Huge body makes him vulnerable to air traps and is a weakness in footsies
- Has no real safe buttons on block besides retreating bair. Commits heavily to basically everything he does
- No kill confirms. Needs a trap situation or a hard read



Long Range

lolwut? Nothing to say except one or the other will try to close the gap since they can't do anything at this range.

Mid Range

Bowser's neutral b fire breathe will see work at this range. Won't cause flinch near max range, but is a good way to deter ground approaches and tack on an easy 13% or so. This is really the first hurdle Marth must get past. Of course he could opt to just eat it and then work his way in since after using it Bowser has to let the move "cool down" since it withers the longer the fire breathe is active. An easy way to draw this out os dash to shield and then shield drop dash in or SH when it dies out. Full jumping works too. Other then that, alot of baiting can go on at this range. Both characters are strong in footsies, but tend to commit though Bowser more so than Marth. Ideally both characters want to slow down the pace of the game and force their opponent to get through a wall they set-up. However since both chars have the same general gameplan, it comes down to who plays it better.

Footsie Range

Both have strong reliable tools to win the footsie war. All of Bowsers attacks are powerful and devastating. Two hits from d-tilt can do 25%!!!! Other attacks do around 12% to 14%. He has nice reach and power to back up his attacks. Marth has his sword giving him a disjointed hitbox to work with. He doesn't hit as hard, but he is more fluid and can maintain advantage better once he gets a hit. Attacking in wide sweeping arcs lets him cover several angles of approach and keep Bowser at bay. Marth is also a slightly better punisher and since Bowser is less safe on block this opens up opportunities for Marth to score damage. Bowsers tilts are not safe so attacking a shield is not a wise decision for him. The best time for him to hit a button is when he thinks Marth is going to press something or to snuff an approach, otherwise expect to be blocked and punished. And since both characters thrive at the same range, this puts Bowser in danger of getting tippered and killed at percents that are normally unheard of for a character as heavy as him. He can be KOed as early as 80 or 90% depending on Marth's rage and their position on the stage. Of course Bowsers killing power is very impressive as well and cannot be discounted. Bowseer also has a better dash attack for disrupting Marths wall and breaking his rhythm. Marth has two interesting tools at this range. Dancing Blade and Shieldbreaker. Both are transcendent. They will not interact with hitboxes only hurtboxes and shields.(Items too but competitive play is no items.) Excellent footsie tools. DB is a great whiff punisher while Shieldbreaker is a good poke due to long horizontal range and can decimate shields. Marth also has great walk speed and air speed so he is more in control of the pace. this helps mitigate Bowsers large damage advantage since Marth can more easily dictate the matches flow. Still as great as his specials are Shieldbreaker is very slow to start-up at 20 frames. Well within human reaction time. You can roll or spot dodge on pure reaction as long as you are paying attention. Marth needs to throw it out when he feels Bowser will shield or press a button. DB is bad on block as well and easily punishable though Marth can mix-up his swings or stop short so a punish is not guaranteed. Counter poking is all about knowing what buttons each character likes to press. SH fair will from Marth beats Bowser's fair but an f-tilt from Bowser will often beat Marths fair. SH neutral B from Bowser is strong vs Marth's d-tilt but will lose to dash back Dancing Blade. Knowing spacing and positioning is key as well as reading habits and knowing what options beat what. Bowsers Fire Breathe will get use here as it blows up Marth's spacing and does good damage. Both characters also have good u-tilts to shut down obvious SH attempts. Marth's jab is strong for this as well. Though it must be spaced well because it is unsafe on hit.


Close Range/Mix-ups

Neither character is very strong up close when it comes to normal pressure. Both are very punishable by the others Up B OoS. They have great defensive options so generally whoever becomes TOO aggressive and sloppy will get punished. Both their Up Bs do a nice 11%. Bowser's is better since it puts his opponent into an air trap scenario, with Bowser still grounded. Bowser however is scarier vs a shield since he can mix-up with Koopa Klaw, his command grab. This does 18% and has regular land recovery of 3 frames when done in the air. It can kill at higher percents as well. Scary stuff. At higher percents its harder to influence the direction of the body slam. Marth generally wants to get back to footsies where he excels and safe shield pokes with d-tilt. SH backwards Fair or Bair is a solid tool for resetting spacing. Bowser can do the same with bair. Both characters can use grabs to reset spacing as well. Marth's throws can easily send Bowser flying towards the ledge where Marth excels. Bowser can do the same, but its a bit harder for him to stay in control due to his mobility. BUT his reward for landing a hit is huge, so trap situations can lead to huge pay offs. He also has another high risk/high reward option up close with his down B. The headbutt launches his opponent then he slams his body down. Lots of damage.

Edge guarding/Ledge traps/Air traps

Edge guarding is Marths realm. Its easy for him to simply run out and swing and beat out alot of Bowser's options. He can do the same on defense too or even counter. Speaking of counter, Bowser's Up B when used for recovery is counter bait. Marth can rack up alot of percent here even if he doesnt get the kill. Bowser has some strong options too. Run off bair to catch rising Dolphin Slash can be deadly although its techable so its not a guaranteed kill. Both have straight forward recoveries so edgeguarding is effective vs both these chars, though Marth gets a slight nod here. For ledge traps both chars are strong at them and thrive on them. Neither are combo machines so putting opponents in situations where they are limited is what they are about. Marth is a bit better at dealing with these due to having a smaller frame, as well as ledge jump fair being a solid option. Generally though whoever initiates the trap has a nice advantage over the defender. Bowser is very threatening with that Koopa Klaw as a regular get-up into shield could mean a free 18% for him!! Air traps are what Marth is known for. His throws have high knockback and send opponents reeling. Bowser however is not helpless. Bowser's down b though risky can yield huge reward if it hits and kills well too. It can make your opponent hesitate when attempting an air trap. His Dair is another similar option. Marth can counter these if he baits them however. On the flipside Marth is pretty good at dealing with air traps. B-reverse Shieldbreaker is nice for messing with an opponents momentum as it will send Marth in the other direction. He can also choose to challenge with dair which can work due to its range and disjoint, though this has alot of recovery so if its baited Marth is in trouble. His counter can also be used in these situations as well. Bowser is not as strong in air trap situations, but once again his high damage and extreme knockback can seal a stock with one correct guess or mix-up. A uair from him in a juggle situation does 15% and can kill a little over 100% or less depending on rage and Marths air height.

Overview

They are honestly slightly altered versions of the same archetype. Both are strong defensive footsie types, while Bowser leans more towards being a grappler and Marth a poking character. Bowser has insane power and mix-ups, while Marth is safer and a bit more nimble. Neither are combo heavy characters. They rely on solid fundamentals, good decision making, proper spacing, as well as solid reads. They are imo true fighting game characters. Nothing is free with either one. This match is darn close and a great one between two that have mastered their characters. They each have weaknesses the other can exploit. Both have the tools to win and neither one dominates the other. Whoever is the stronger player will win.


Guys thats the write-up. How did I do? If you feel I missed anything then please let me know.
 
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EarthenPillar

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Pretty good write-up imo. Could use some info regarding anti-air game in the MU. Bowser's utilt/up-B and marth's jab/utilt are key here.
 

Uncle

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This was an enlightening read, Emblem Lord. I've always enjoyed reading your Marth analyses back in the Brawl days, and it's cool to see you supporting the Hero-King once again.

I'd add in something about Bowser's +7 frame advantage on hit with Jab or his shieldbreaking power with Bowser Bomb, but you've already made it crystal clear that Bowser's on hit rewards are something to be feared.
 

Random4811

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So for you Bowser lot, I've recently found something to look out for. Someone on the Marth general mentioned it, and I got around to trying it.

Sourspot nair set-ups. If you can avoid it, don't get hit by sourspot nair below (I believe) 50%. You will be sent into soft-knockdown (which is non-techable incase you didn't know), and this leads to a number of followups from the Hero King. Including Tipper FSmash. Even at low percents for a heavy like Bowser, Tipper Fsmash on ledge is Scary. Plus, then we get into ledge traps, and I was labbing today on the bus, your recovery range isn't /that/ great. So as you know, gimping you isnt exactly hard when your recovery is kinda slow and a giant hurtbox for our disjoint to slap.

Also, @ Emblem Lord Emblem Lord you may want to add under Utilt how Marth can easily get Utilt->grab at lower percents, and for Bowser, he can probably be abused by that for longer.
 
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B.A.M.

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So for you Bowser lot, I've recently found something to look out for. Someone on the Marth general mentioned it, and I got around to trying it.

Sourspot nair set-ups. If you can avoid it, don't get hit by sourspot nair below (I believe) 50%. You will be sent into soft-knockdown (which is non-techable incase you didn't know), and this leads to a number of followups from the Hero King. Including Tipper FSmash. Even at low percents for a heavy like Bowser, Tipper Fsmash on ledge is Scary. Plus, then we get into ledge traps, and I was labbing today on the bus, your recovery range isn't /that/ great. So as you know, gimping you isnt exactly hard when your recovery is kinda slow and a giant hurtbox for our disjoint to slap.

Also, @ Emblem Lord Emblem Lord you may want to add under Utilt how Marth can easily get Utilt->grab at lower percents, and for Bowser, he can probably be abused by that for longer.

lol where did you get the idea sourspot nair is untechable???
 

B.A.M.

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and this is non techable because what now? Im almost certain this absolutely false. If im wrong then I will eat my words but I highly doubt it cause a untechable get up unless what you are really trying to state is that sourspot nair can lock the opponent at low percents.
 

Random4811

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and this is non techable because what now? Im almost certain this absolutely false. If im wrong then I will eat my words but I highly doubt it cause a untechable get up unless what you are really trying to state is that sourspot nair can lock the opponent at low percents.
Its not a hard get-up, that you get with techable hits. Its a soft knock-down, it looks identical to a trip. To my knowledge, untechable
 

B.A.M.

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lol it is a trip. I get what u are saying now. And yes you cant tech a trip. Most people however are simply going to call it a trip since thats what it is. Knock downs are completely different. I see where you are coming from though.
 

Random4811

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lol it is a trip. I get what u are saying now. And yes you cant tech a trip. Most people however are simply going to call it a trip since thats what it is. Knock downs are completely different. I see where you are coming from though.
Ah sorry for the confusion! I've always heard it referred to as a soft knockdown.
 

Random4811

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no worries man! It makes perfect sense in retrospect why you would refer to it as such!
Right. Ive found it works at much lower percents (like sometimes below 10) on lighter characters. I've never seen it happen on Jigs or anyone around her weightclass, but I've gotten sourspot nair to trip another Marth before, and A CF as well. Its got its useful applications, and if I could hammer out the percents it works at, It could be a pretty useful set-up.
 
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