Jiggs vs Marth trouble

[Sarej]

Sure this pops up every now and then but I've been having trouble vs some Marths... They abuse fsmash hard and I really don't know how to get around Marths sword range outside of waiting for him to attack and moving in fast to poke with whatever is necessary. CCing works but only if they don't read it but if they do then they just dtilt. I know the duck under grab rest trick but you have to predict well ahead of time and isn't something to be relied on. If I get him off stage then that's a huge advantage as my edge guarding has become semi-decent recently. Also just a side question, should I be using c stick for aerials?

P.S. If anyone knows anything about Doc and how to get past pill spam that would be awesome. Best counter I've found was fairing into his pills so if he tried to come in after a pill I'd hit and destroy pill and then hit him after he jumped in to follow the pill.

 

[Sarej]

Also I'm guessing shield wavedash is something I should know.

 

[Sprankles]

I think I could give some pretty solid advice on this match-up. It's one of my favorite ones to play actually. First lets start with how Marth works. Marth is one of those characters who has to be played in center stage, stage positioning is everything for Marth. Like you said, Marth is easy to edge guard if he's off stage, and if hes at the ledge, you can shut down his dash dance, make fsmashes (or any move) VERY risky for him to throw out, and force punishable decisions out of him like a roll towards the center or a jump. Marth at the ledge is blood in the water if you play it right.

Knowing all that, as puff your goal is to take control of center stage and keep him walled against the edge where he can be abused. That's actually true for a lot of match-ups but this one it's especially important to keep control of center stage. And when he's there, you play patient. It really is difficult for puff to get inside Marth's range, so you make him want to swing by knowing the range of his moves and playing footsies. Sit right outside and know when it's safe to punish. If you think they're conditioned to shield near the ledge because of the footsies pressure you've been putting on, rush in with a grab. I've found that mixing up grabs and pokes with good spacing works best for getting them off stage. And once they're off... they're dead if you know how to guard.

When you don't have center stage, don't just continually run into Marth's sword, especially if you're at the ledge. If they're smart they'll know they have the entire stage to dash dance and wave dash bait you with. Bide your time with patient spacing, and know when you can get a safe poke or significant hit to retake the stage. You don't want to spend the match getting f-smashed at the ledge or above Marth getting abused and walled out do you? So know when to stay out, and when it's safe.

 

[Sarej]

I think I could give some pretty solid advice on this match-up. It's one of my favorite ones to play actually. First lets start with how Marth works. Marth is one of those characters who has to be played in center stage, stage positioning is everything for Marth. Like you said, Marth is easy to edge guard if he's off stage, and if hes at the ledge, you can shut down his dash dance, make fsmashes (or any move) VERY risky for him to throw out, and force punishable decisions out of him like a roll towards the center or a jump. Marth at the ledge is blood in the water if you play it right.

Knowing all that, as puff your goal is to take control of center stage and keep him walled against the edge where he can be abused. That's actually true for a lot of match-ups but this one it's especially important to keep control of center stage. And when he's there, you play patient. It really is difficult for puff to get inside Marth's range, so you make him want to swing by knowing the range of his moves and playing footsies. Sit right outside and know when it's safe to punish. If you think they're conditioned to shield near the ledge because of the footsies pressure you've been putting on, rush in with a grab. I've found that mixing up grabs and pokes with good spacing works best for getting them off stage. And once they're off... they're dead if you know how to guard.

When you don't have center stage, don't just continually run into Marth's sword, especially if you're at the ledge. If they're smart they'll know they have the entire stage to dash dance and wave dash bait you with. Bide your time with patient spacing, and know when you can get a safe poke or significant hit to retake the stage. You don't want to spend the match getting f-smashed at the ledge or above Marth getting abused and walled out do you? So know when to stay out, and when it's safe.

Really appreciate this, I found that grabs were useful in throwing his position from the center. Spacing is just something I'll have to work on and working on my shield wavedash combo. Automatically reading this has made me a player thought wise but I'll practice it so it can translate to play.

 

[K-9]

The Marth match-up use to make me stay up at night, for fear of that stupid forward smash hitting me and killing me at 60%.. Ugh, the nightmares. But I’ve overcome that fear and now see it as probably my best match-up.

My keys to success against Marth involve a few different tactics and strategies.

1: First and foremost, if you are grabbed you must, MUST, DI it down so they can’t immediately f-smash you or get a good follow up. This is incredibly important as if you can reliably rest a missed grab and not get severely punished when you shield and are grabbed, your neutral game becomes infinitely better.

2: Whenever you are on the ground you should be crouching. This forces the Marth not to use grab and space their aerials better. If you do get hit by a poorly spaced aerial you then have the option to punish (usually with f-smash, up-smash, or grab). These first two points will apply pressure upon the Marth to respect you, which gives you the space and freedom to sneak in those wonderful back airs that you want.

3: Once your opponent finds out you can rest a grab or not get punished for it ever you have eliminated their ability to grab without some sort of set up or bait. SOOO now you have to learn how to bait a grab. There are several options here, instead of always falling with an aerial try just landing and crouch, OR, if you hit their shield with a well spaced aerial you can crouch next to their shield. Marth has horrible options out of shield and you can punish all of them if you figure out their habits.

Auto-cancelled nair is another option, where you place yourself within their grab range and crouch right after, they’ll go for a rest and boom, rest.

Hitting the missed grab rest is all about knowing when the Marth is likely to grab you. Its hard to do on reaction, but if you know they are likely to do it after you hit shield or are in landing “lag”, then crouch and prepare that down-B!

4: That forward smash isn’t so scary after all. Most Marth’s go for two types of f-smashes, wave-dash back f-smash and a read f-smash when they think you will land. So, you must not chase and over extend yourself against the Marth, instead, use those bairs to push them back into a poor position where they can’t f-smash. Then if they do f-smash you must punish. Second, a lot of Marth’s will try to f-smash you as you fall, so, fall and then jump right before that range and then you can punish.

5: How to move around. Wave dashing is your greatest friend here. Against Marth the worst position you can be in is in the air or on a platform, as that is where he can get his combos off and keep you at bay forever. This means that you should stay on the ground a lot, wavedashing backwards and forwards and occasionally jumping ONCE or TWICE (maybe three times) and throwing out some well spaced back airs and nairs. Another aspect of this idea is that Marth has the advantage when you come down. Therefore the object of combing back to the stage is to not get hit and make it safe, NOT to get a hit. So only try to throw out aerials to clear out space for yourself and to punish a very laggy move like f-smash.

6: This is the last point I will talk in depth about. Comboing Marth. Jiggz can combo the mess out of Marth, however, its not all guaranteed, kind of… Comboing Marth is all about getting him in the air, knowing how many guaranteed hits you can get, and then staying close and hitting him as soon as he throws out an aerial or jumps. You have to read their movement after a couple of aerials, don’t just throw and aerial out you know won’t hit, instead, wait a little and react. You can extend your combos a lot.


So there you go. Sorry for the long ass post but hopefully this helps. I have a lot to say about the match-up. The only thing I didn’t cover really is edge guarding, but that is really experience based and you can watch any hungrybox vs. marth player to see how to do it. Anyways, here is a video of me playing a decent Marth so you don’t think I’m full of it and maybe it could help.
video: youtube.com/watch?v=SKYigsCX6jw
Edit: left out www. for the link cause it won't let me post links for some reason