Jigglytuff Move Suggestion Thread

[Floati]

I still love the Jiggs- but if she were to get buffs.... There are a few suggestions I've seen or thought of that would largely maintain playstyle and aren't sing-to-rest-combo good (gamebreaking):

1. *On par or better air mobility as Wario. (This and perhaps a slightly faster rising speed would help her chase and continue her combos as well as allow her some ability to blockade run through walls of disjoints and projectiles)

2. Slight boost to pound speed/priority

I also think shieldbreak insta-death should be scraped. And while it's not my favorite buff idea, jump out of a ground started rollout (this changes her playstyle a bit) is not unreasonable.

* This is my favorite- subtle and doesn't affect playstyle. And her game should revolve around sharking people in the air

 

[Pluid]

What would you guys think about giving Jigglypuff her Smash 64 Teleport?

 

[MegaMissingno]

I'd like to be able to cancel out of charging up Rollout instead of being forced to commit. Might be a nice fakeout, or at least slightly less terrible this way. Also how about jumping during Rollout? Not like a jump cancel or anything, just continuing the attack in the air.

Another thing I think would be nice would be if the second and third hitboxes of Sing were slightly larger. It'd be pretty situational, but imagine scoring a late hit like that.

 

[robosteven]

Making it so Rollout doesn't take your jump away on whiff offstage would be nice.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I would give fair a turnaround (like Marth's, Roy's, Lucario's and Olimar's bair)

 

[TimeSmash]

It would be nice if something was done to Sing, like a musical note thing suggested earlier, increased range, or the possiblity of a misfire sing, where it would have a random chance to have a huge range.

 

[robosteven]

why not just give the third hit a (dodgeable/shieldable, obviously) fullscreen hitbox

this is not sarcasm you guys know how impossible it is to land the first hit of sing let alone the last

 

[MegaMissingno]

Someone on reddit recently suggested adding a flower effect to it, as a nod to Brawl putting the flower on Rest. Wouldn't really be much of a huge buff, but I'm kinda wary of huge buffs lest we open the Sing->Rest floodgates. Gotta be very careful with Sing as long as it coexists on the same moveset as Rest.

In fact, what if the duration was fixed so that the victim wakes up at the same time you finish singing? That keeps it from being punishable on hit, while still ensuring no Sing->Rest (unless it's a late hit or ledge cancel, that can remain). You just get the flower damage and that's it.

 

[TimeSmash]

At the very least, you should be able to jump or shield out of Rollout charge. It'd be great if you didn't go into helpless after, too, but that might be asking for a little much

 

[robosteven]

Making rollout good wouldn't break the character.

 

[TimeSmash]

I mean from a recovery aspect someone is bound to ***** that it's unfair to have that much of a horizontal recovery, but at the same time it's Jiggs, so they could get over it hah

 

[Soupchicken]

I think Jigglypuff is already solid and I'm afraid all this low-tier talk will lead to major changes to her kit.

Rollout is fine as is. It charges surprisingly fast and has insane KO power (that angle tho). It's also a great recovery tool now that it can sweet spot. Furthermore it's deceptively hard to punish.

If you must buff her give her a better tech roll and a decent spot dodge.

Her terrible tech roll gets me killed at least once a game. It'd be a massive (understatement) buff to her survivability.

If you're still not happy, buff her slow spot dodge (IASA frame 28). Top tier spot-dodges are IASA frame 23. Spot-dodge into a punish (ideally rest) would become a real threat in addition to the general utility that a better spot dodge would provide.

I think these two changes are enough to make her competitive without having to make major changes to her kit.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Would being able to cancel Rollout's charge really be that drastic of an overpowered buff? The problem with Rollout is that it's such a long commitment, both for the charge and the attack. If you could start charging and change your mind it'd be less of an issue.

 

[pkhaxorz]

Serious suggestions:

Sing is now similar to Lucas's Offensive Up(Neutral B, another worthless move in Brawl), where you get a bit of a buff if you complete it without getting hit.

Sing now functions like Ness's old PSI magnet, and is quicker. Or a reflector

Sing is now counter(You dare punch jigglypuff while she tries to give you sweet music?)

Rollout without a direction remains the same, (although maybe with a bit less lag), Rollout followed by a diagonal/vertical directional input while charging( ground and air,in the air), is much quicker to charge, and is pretty much Sonic's Neutral B, but without the homing properties, working a bit like the canons in Kirby games, or , and having purpose similar in purpose to Wolf's Side B. If you use an upward variety in the air, you go into helpless, although seeing as how this is jiggly-puff, her recovery is already pretty insane.

Rest restores health when you hit with it.

Completely non-serious suggestions:
Make roll-out function like it does in Brawl-, cancel-able into any attack you want on hit... Including Rest.

Sing is replaced with one of Smash 4's custom Sing moves.

Jab is now falcon punch.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Those are some drastic changes that would necessitate a very different playstyle. I'd rather keep it subtle, and aim at keeping her existing playstyle intact.

 

[4tlas]

Jigglypuff currently has some abilities that are painfully bad and others that are extraordinarily good, leading to a one-dimensional playstyle (which in itself is a wonderfully complex playstyle of careful spacing in a position-based game). Making her less polarized by giving her other options would be the best way to buff her, as having soft counters to her opponents' strengths keeps her weaknesses but enables flexibility, creativity, and strategy. Keeping her strengths intact (maybe not in terms of power, but in terms of concept) is definitely a goal as well.

I don't know Jigglypuff well enough to determine what her weaknesses are, but I definitely think fixing useless moves is a good place to start. These would be ftilt, dtilt, sing, and rollout, right? Maybe even jab, dsmash, and fair?

 

[robosteven]

I don't know Jigglypuff well enough to determine what her weaknesses are, but I definitely think fixing useless moves is a good place to start. These would be ftilt, dtilt, sing, and rollout, right? Maybe even jab, dsmash, and fair?

Getting walled out and being unable to gimp characters are pretty big weaknesses. That's why G&W and even Olimar are really hard matchups for Jiggs.

 

[4tlas]

Getting walled out and being unable to gimp characters are pretty big weaknesses. That's why G&W and even Olimar are really hard matchups for Jiggs.

Walling out and gimping are her strengths, though. I think what you're saying is she has no OTHER strengths, thus when those are negated she has no soft counter fallback options and just loses outright. This is why adding weak flexibility would help. Its why Fox and Falco have acceptable MUs across the board. Fox always has a different option to use and Falco can laser everyone.

 

[robosteven]

that's actually exactly what I was trying to say but you said it way better

 

[4tlas]

When can she not wall out or gimp, though? She can clank projectiles. Her problem is disjoints, then?

 

[ThaWhiplash]

There's a pretty good discussion in the project m subreddit on Jiggly moveset changes at the moment.
I don't have enough posts to post the link currently however, you'll need to remove the two spaces in it, sorry
http ://www. reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/31hti2/a_proposal_for_changes_to_jigglypuff/

 

[pkhaxorz]

Those are some drastic changes that would necessitate a very different playstyle. I'd rather keep it subtle, and aim at keeping her existing playstyle intact.

I'd personally like to focus on keeping everything equivalent to melee, but give additional tools.

 

[Hydroloxx]

Jigglypuff feels very slow in Project M, so I would like to see her move faster (not to the point of creating a very unfair character, of course.)

 

[HermitHelmet]

I don't know Jigglypuff well enough to determine what her weaknesses are, but I definitely think fixing useless moves is a good place to start. These would be ftilt, dtilt, sing, and rollout, right? Maybe even jab, dsmash, and fair?

Jab and Fair honestly don't need changing.

So I made a post about PM Puff on Reddit that got a lot of attention so imma repost it here:

Honestly, I think yes. She's my main in Melee and my top secondary in PM, and honestly, she needs more tools. Her gimping game is great, but that doesn't matter all that much when every character's neutral is practically better than hers. She either gets wrecked by disjoints, despite her Bair (M2, Ivy) or gets destroyed in the neutral (Wolf, Ivy, anyone with a good projectile).

The thing is that PM Puff has not been fully explored yet at all. This is because of things such as USmash, DACUS, RAR Bair, Rest setups from Footstools, and much more. The main crux of the issue is that even with all of these things, I feel like Puff will forever be outclassed based on her very predictable neutral, and honestly any lack of burst movement outside of DACUS and Rollout.

I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure many PM Puff mains wouldn't complain if moves such as Ftilt, Sing, Rollout, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. would be replaced with things that are actually useful.

Don't get what I'm saying wrong. I don't want Puff to get overhauled, it's just that I feel she's become not only stagnant due to her very defensive playstyle and predictable (and albeit quite ****ty) neutral game, but also because of how so many characters are better and/or do her job better.

 

[pkhaxorz]

The thing is that PM Puff has not been fully explored yet at all. This is because of things such as USmash, DACUS, RAR Bair, Rest setups from Footstools, and much more. The main crux of the issue is that even with all of these things, I feel like Puff will forever be outclassed based on her very predictable neutral, and honestly any lack of burst movement outside of DACUS and Rollout.

I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure many PM Puff mains wouldn't complain if moves such as Ftilt, Sing, Rollout, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. would be replaced with things that are actually useful.

Don't get what I'm saying wrong. I don't want Puff to get overhauled, it's just that I feel she's become not only stagnant due to her very defensive playstyle and predictable (and albeit quite ****ty) neutral game, but also because of how so many characters are better and/or do her job better.

1. DACUS is... notable, but doesn't really fit in with her tool set. IMO, Dash attack is already very good. RAR is a very small mobility boost. Footstooling may be an option, but we can already just go deep and bair.
2. I think it's worth mentioning that in PM, characters have more difficult projectiles. You can't maneuver around PK freeze, Razor Leaf, or Pit's arrows the same way you can with Sheik's grounded needles, or Spacy Lasers. Crouching, one of our most useful defensive options, is nerfed.
3. I agree with you on "other characters doing her job better." Puff used to be notable for breaking the regular rules for committing to aerial moves(Along with peach, but peach had other issues), but now we have ROB, Ivysaur, etc.

 

[MagnesD3]

Rollout needs to be canellable via shield button (I'd personally like it if you maintained momentum from rollout after a cancel.). Pound in the opposite direction of the momentum would help you slow down.

Make sing unblockable and make sure when it hits, there's enough time to land rest.

 

[Soupchicken]

I like the idea of buffing her aerial mobility. She does feel way faster in melee.

 

[Beets]

I have never really touched or examined Jigglypuff that closely, and I'm not sure if it's been posted yet, but to support those who may have already suggested these:

• F-tilt active sooner, with a longer hitbox
• D-silt that lifts opponents up-and-above Jigglypuff
• Stronger Jab1 Jab2 in terms of damage
• Jump-cancellable Rollout with a weaker hit but a much faster charge, allowing for Ike-like QD approaches
• More damaging D-throw

A year later, and nobody comments on how practical these changes are, and how little they change the core of the character's game.

The only thing I would disagree with is a jump-cancellable Rollout. Huge changes like that turn me off. I love Melee Ness, but I never had to think about using magnet as a shine as a Tool That Ness Has. If the PMDT were to just give a character as important to the Melee meta a Tool That Jigglypuff Never Had, it may turn away long-time players of said character.

Look at the high level competitive scene since the dawn of 3.5. Do people really think that Armada and Zero stopped playing Pit, Mew2King and KoreanDJ stopped playing Mewtwo, and Leffen stopped playing Fox (note that this is only partially true (see Leffen's Beauty 10 plays)) because they were nerfed? These people have invested time into playing these characters and enjoyed them, whether they were top tier or not.

Armada asked around the boards on their opinion on Pit before he picked him up, and they said "He's ok." Mew2king in his giant post in the Project M Tier List Speculation thread believed himself that "Mewtwo i think is good right now, but also not great. He's a good design i think." And in PM 3.5 they gave Mewtwo all these bizarre stipulations such as you cannot hover after teleport, and you can only act out of teleport so long as you have your double jump, but then your double jump is gone whether you act out of it or not.

Don't just give characters (i.e. Jigglypuff being able to jump-cancel Rollout) weird tools because they sound cool.

Similarly, don't nerf characters in a way that makes their current tools unusable, and do not completely remove tools that they have.

The changes you suggested here, that ftilt be fast and lingering, and damage and knockback buffs to underutilized moves, are the sort of changes that need to be made.

Another change suggest above was to put Puff's fair sweetspot from Brawl. I think this is a valid change for the following reasons: 1) a sweetspot does not change or remove the previous utilities that Melee fair brought, 2) a sweetspot would differentiate fair from bair, but would not require the relearninng of the character in any way, nor would it require the player to play with a totally different mindset when playing (playing an entirely new cast of characters (additions from Brawl (also buffed low tiers from Melee like Kirby and Bowser)) should be what requires new modes of thinking, not changes in a character already learned by many), 3) really Jigglypuff really needs something to deal with how strong the PM cast is.

Sing truly is trash, but that doesn't mean people should replace it or (looking at PSI Magnet) give it an entirely new utility that requires Jigglypuff players to rethink their entire gameplan (as mentioned above, playing new characters on new stages by new players should trigger that already). Instead, give it buffs that accentuate what its main purpose is. As it stands, I see more sleepy times in Snake matchups than Puff. That ain't right! That being said, it should not be buffed to monstrous porportions that just make Sing a super good option for every situation. Not sure what I would do, maybe have Sing put characters to sleep so long as they are standing on the ground? whether their shield is up or not? This wouldn't make it that good, as people will just jump and attack Puff. The utility I was going for was for really high percentage rest setups.

So that's what I'm thinking. I think Jigglypuff is a great, unique character design. I would love to see minor damage and knockback buffs here and there. As it stands now however, there are many other characters to choose from to fill the void for "good aerial and gimp game with a super cool kill move (just sorta talking out my rear here (Ivysaur vine whip?))."

Comments and critique are welcome and encouraged.

Edit: I didn't mention IceFrog, but for anybody who doesn't know, IceFrog makes balance changes to DOTA by exentuating characters strengths and weaknesses. So, for a character like, let's say, Marth, he might increase his grab range but also increase his end-lag on his more laggy-end moves.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Yeah, being able to jump cancel Rollout Ike-style would just be really really really stupid. But what if it just worked like Wario, where the attack continues in the air instead of canceling?

 

[Beets]

Yeah, being able to jump cancel Rollout Ike-style would just be really really really stupid. But what if it just worked like Wario, where the attack continues in the air instead of canceling?

I didn't mean to imply that any move change suggestions were "stupid". All merely meant that you can't remove a characters tool from their moveset without ruining the character.

Rollout has its uses.

This doesn't REALLY apply to Brawl characters. Removing Wario's bike removes an item and important recovery tool from Wario, but you need to remember context. If this were Balanced Brawl, for example, and they replaced Wario's bike with his Shoulder Bash, it would remove a key piece of Brawl Wario that made Brawl Wario Brawl Wario. However, since we are trying to be Melee, certain changes need to be made to Brawl characters, effectively adding completely original characters to Melee, rather than backwards importing them from Brawl (which is impossible).

 

[MegaMissingno]

I mean that adding an Ike-style jump cancel would be stupidly overpowered. Puff's air speed is already fast enough, if she could bair with Rollout's momentum that'd be nuts, and it might lead to some killer Rest setups too. Giving Rollout a jump that works like Wario's, in that it doesn't cancel the attack, would be a much more sane way to buff it.

 

[Beets]

I mean that adding an Ike-style jump cancel would be stupidly overpowered. Puff's air speed is already fast enough, if she could bair with Rollout's momentum that'd be nuts, and it might lead to some killer Rest setups too. Giving Rollout a jump that works like Wario's, in that it doesn't cancel the attack, would be a much more sane way to buff it.

I don't mean to antagonize, but I don't agree with this at all. It is irrelevent whether a JC Rollout would be broken or not. People can say that, but those same people won't say that a JC Shine is broken.

What I am saying is that you cannot, in a game that is trying to be a Melee, change a character in a way that changes the character's playstyle

I play Ness in Melee. Ness in Melee does not have to think about Magnet chains or whathaveyou.

Hungrybox plays Jigglypuff in Melee. Hungrybox does not have to think about JC his rollout. Do people think that, if Jigglypuff had a JC Rollout, HBox would still play Jigglypuff?

I bet he would stick to Mario and Olimar.

Now, if a move is changed in a way that enhances its capabilities, without having to relearn the character or implement an entire new technique to your playstyle that you have spent fourteen years aging, then by all means, I would love to see those changes made.

Nerfing Fox's Up Smash is a good example of changing a notable character's tool in a way that does not change how the player handles the character he or she has been maining for fourteen years. Placing decay on his laser is a good example of changing a notable character's tool in a way that does change how the player handles the character he or she has been maining for fourteen years (according to M2K (source in my post above)).

Same with Ness (I don't see Simna or Mofo or HBox playing him) and Ice Climbers (honestly the only PM Ice Climbers I've seen is @Hylian , and he doesn't (so far as I know) play Ice Climbers in Melee (make a note that only Brawl Ice Climbers play PM Ice Climbers)). Wobbles plays Mario. He mentioned on Twitter (excuse me for being unable to find the post) that he would like to play PM, but it's wierd playing a Melee that's not quite Melee.

Experimentation is, for the most part, over. Removing tether grabs (see 3.6 Olimar) as a characters main source of recovery is the largest change I expect from PM for the rest of its lifespan. Removing features, like Ness's Shiney Magnet (even though the removal of the move would draw me back into the character), is completely out of the question, as countless players have no doubt picked up and fallen in-love with PM Ness.

You cannot please everybody. Mew2King liked 3.0 Mewtwo. 3.5 changed how he played his character. I haven't seen him play Mewtwo in any game since (don't watch his time with the pre-release of Sm4sh Mewtwo (it broke my heart to see how he degraded)).

Same goes for Brawl players with their Brawl characters. I personally love (almost) everything about Brawl Sonic. I played PM Sonic since DEMO 1. I accidently discovered that PM was a thing about a week and a half after it released its first demo. There were like, 14 or so characters. I noticed that this was more than the first Smash Bros. game had characters. The CSS was still white, like Brawl's. Lucas was totally different and really wierd and turned me off from playing him comletely. I don't remember specifics beside his back air being a strong kick like Fox and Falco. I didn't notice until recently that they changed him back to having Brawl aerials. Apparently this didn't matter, as Brawl Lucas mains such as @Relax Alax turn to other characters because PM Lucas is too different (would love to see his reaction to DEMO 1 Lucas (maybe I'll send him a copy why not)). I played Brawl Sonic. I played Melee Yoshi when I was a baby. I jumped up high and performed ground pounds. I didn't play Melee. I decided to try out Project M. I download Demo 1. I see Sonic. Hey! Sonic is my most played character in Brawl! Cool. Demo 1 Sonic had Brawl Sonic's moveset completely intact. But he felt even FASTER. They basically just made Homing Attack faster, and gave Sonic a few kill moves in his forwward and up airs, and buffed everything. It was pretty neat. I was excited to play Yoshi and Ness, my favorites from Melee. I kept my eyes open for subsequent releases of Project M. I started to play Fox. Hey! Fox is fun. My friend picked up Sheik. We were starting to learn Melee, starting from the future and moving backwards.

I don't remember which Demo it was, Demo 2.0 or 2.5. I have all the demos archived on my harddrive. I don't feel like installing them. I played with the new Sonic. He was kinda different. I didn't dislike it at all, for what that's worth. Just didn't feel like learning Sonic again. Just not my thing. I tried Ness. He was cool! I learned what double jump cancelling, thanks to Project M. Thanks @Project M ! Oh! I can rise in the air, like I could in Brawl! Oh! This explains why I always stopped mid air when performing up airs in Melee! DJC...

It was great. I was having a gay old time juggling my time between Sonic, Fox, and now Ness, my old favorite from back in the day. Like, all I needed was Yoshi and Ivysaur and I would have all of my favorite characters to play! (God I had to wait so long for Yoshi (it was totally worth it PM Yoshi rocks so hard (reminds me of watching a developer test stream and they had Yoshi refresh his Double Jump after an airborne Egg Roll (that would have been sick and totally not in line with PM's current goals but sick notheless)))). However, I didn't read Ness's character page so closely. Woah! My Magnet is now a shine? I don't even know what that means! So I ignore it for a year. Then I realize that I could have spent that year learning all this wierd tech that may or may not make it into the next version of that game. I didn't like that feeling. I didn't like that feeling at all. It felt really bad. Here was this wierd thing I could have been implementing into my knowledge of the character, and I didn't spend any time implenting my talents toward learning any cool techs. Furthermore, this tool is completely unique to PM, and would not help me in any way with my handling of the character for any other Smash game (love Sm4sh Ness AND Melee Ness btw (not that anyone in the world cares)). Ness is not a Brawl characters, which I feel the PMDT should by all means take much liberty with (PM Ike (and most of the PM cast) rocks so hard). Ness has been an established character for three games prior to PM. Longtime Ness players such as myself (although I sucked before playing PM) don't have a Ness to play in PM.

I'm not winning any tournaments though so I'm just gonna stick to Yoshi.

Edit: Just looked it up. Fox can cancel his shine into the ground if he shines quick enough after leaving the ground, and Ness can cancel his Magnet on the ledge. So being able to cancel the Magnet at least has some applicable tech to playing Ness else where.

Edit: Watching Isai at Apex 2014 and saw his clever use of forward tilt to take a game off Moyashi. Not how the frame data matches up with Melee but I thought this was noteworthy.

 

[Fortress]

I only posted that because nearly every character in the game has been given new and improved movement tools, where Puff seems to be struggling to keep up despite her being 100% her Melee self. The only thing I could really nail down that holds her back are her movement and ground game.

I didn't think I needed to say it aloud, but, of course I don't think that Rollout momentum should transfer to airspeed; my suggestion was that she could stop on a dime and/or transition into her normal aerial momentum from the move. I'm sure the move has utility as it is, but the character on the whole still tends to fall short in this game.

 

[Plebiscuit]

I don't think jump cancellable rollout would be intuitive or necessary. Instead, I would advocate allowing her to store rollout's charge by shielding or rolling (like Sheik's Needles). The ability to store misfires worked wonders for Luigi, and I imagine it would do the same for Puff while keeping her gameplay and character identity more or less the same. Jigglypuff's three defining traits are her excellent recovery, air speed and punish game, and allowing her to store her rollout charge would augment all three.

 

[MegaMissingno]

I don't mean to antagonize, but I don't agree with this at all. It is irrelevent whether a JC Rollout would be broken or not. People can say that, but those same people won't say that a JC Shine is broken.

What I am saying is that you cannot, in a game that is trying to be a Melee, change a character in a way that changes the character's playstyle.

That too, I'm not disagreeing with any of that. My thoughts on buffing Rollout should be something like what they've done with Falcon's specials - becomes a new move that's at least viable now, but situational enough that it doesn't necessitate a big playstyle shift. Obviously anything that's so good that it's borderline broken, such as a JC, would make for a big playstyle shift.

I don't think jump cancellable rollout would be intuitive or necessary. Instead, I would advocate allowing her to store rollout's charge by shielding or rolling (like Sheik's Needles). The ability to store misfires worked wonders for Luigi, and I imagine it would do the same for Puff while keeping her gameplay and character identity more or less the same. Jigglypuff's three defining traits are her excellent recovery, air speed and punish game, and allowing her to store her rollout charge would augment all three.

While I like the idea of just canceling/feinting the startup, being able to store it would be too much. Having a fully charged Rollout stored and ready to unleash instantly at any moment, that's better than Rest!

 

[robosteven]

Does Puff have a few frames of invuln after rest in Melee too?