Meta Jigglypuff Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[Smeefy]

Lol guys we TOTALLY win against most top tiers, and high tiers like Yoshi, Ness, Villager, Diddy, and Luigi are like THE EASIEST THING ON THE EARTH!! Take my word I'm the best Jigglypuffles in the world got 82nd at a 89 man tourney...

Wait a minute


EDIT: We don't win against ZSS... And if we do, how??

I agree we do beet most high and top teirs but woahe we don't beat zero suit and we definitely don't beat out villager in high level play.

 

[Vinylic.]

"Can't we catch a break? Geez." - Funtroon

 

[Deleted member]

"Can't we catch a break?

This character sure is viable, guys. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Kojii]

"Can't we catch a break?

I knew about this, but didn't want to share it.
Many other characters can do it too

 

[Deleted member]

I knew about this, but didn't want to share it.
Many other characters can do it too

Welp, looks like it's time for me to do grab release -> fair whenever I'm playing as vs. Jiggs. :D

 

[Kojii]

Welp, looks like it's time for me to do grab release -> fair whenever I'm playing as vs. Jiggs. :D

I don't know if your boy M2 can do it.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know if your boy M2 can do it.

I'll lab it today. I'll see if any of my other characters can do it.

 

[Kojii]

I'll lab it today. I'll see if any of my other characters can do it.

Please give an update if you find anything (:

 

[Deleted member]

Please give an update if you find anything (:

Will do! I'll try to make a list of all the followups everyone on the cast has and doesn't, if possible.

 

[Codaption]

That actually would be helpful to know, especially against characters that have good ways to set up for grabs.

We can at least be thankful that we're a bit harder to grab due to how much time we spend in the air... with that in mind and knowing that some characters can't really abuse this or don't generally have reliable ways to get a grab, this might not actually be too much of an issue outside of a few matchups. Still good to keep in mind everyone who has this, though...

@Feelicks it might be helpful to order the characters based on how much use they get from it. Keeping in mind the potency of their followups (including the ones they already have, as they might outclass this and make it basically irrelevant), how easy it is for them to get a grab on us, etc.

 

[Deleted member]

That actually would be helpful to know, especially against characters that have good ways to set up for grabs.

We can at least be thankful that we're a bit harder to grab due to how much time we spend in the air... with that in mind and knowing that some characters can't really abuse this or don't generally have reliable ways to get a grab, this might not actually be too much of an issue outside of a few matchups. Still good to keep in mind everyone who has this, though...

@Feelicks it might be helpful to order the characters based on how much use they get from it. Keeping in mind the potency of their followups (including the ones they already have, as they might outclass this and make it basically irrelevant), how easy it is for them to get a grab on us, etc.

That's good to keep in mind. I'll include percents and maybe KO percents on certain stages if needed, this'll be a long time to all take note of lol

For example I might do it like this

Reliable Followups Out of Air Release

Can kill with Air Slash in either Buster or Jump Mode. KOs at 80-90%.

Situational Followups Out of Air Release

Back air, forward air, or up air are able for use out of air release. Jiggs has a chance to jump or DI before Mewtwo gets to her. Usually effective around 70% and above for all aerials, though up air kills at north of 90%.

No Followups Out of Air Release

rip korby

Note I BS'd all this except the Shulk thing since it's just an example, though I might test out if what I said is true for Mewtwo

 

[Codaption]

Wonderful, thanks. Do you think it'd be a good idea to check with players of other characters to make note of their grab setups and preexisting followups?

Don't mention why you ask if you can help it, though... it's best to keep this as quiet as we possibly can. It should be enough to just pose it as a question on their boards.

 

[Deleted member]

Wonderful, thanks. Do you think it'd be a good idea to check with players of other characters to make note of their grab setups and preexisting followups?

Don't mention why you ask if you can help it, though... it's best to keep this as quiet as we possibly can. It should be enough to just pose it as a question on their boards.

It'll take forever thooo but I suppose I can try. I won't get this done all tonight, probably by sometime tomorrow evening.

and breh, they're always watching. they'll always find out

 

[Codaption]

Noooooooooo .~.

It'd be better to pose the question as "how easily can this character get a grab on puff?" since there are a lot of factors that affect something like that. Keep in mind that some characters might not be able to grab you when you're ducking or in the air, and remind folks of this as necessary.

 

[CHOVI]

Noooooooooo .~.

It'd be better to pose the question as "how easily can this character get a grab on puff?" since there are a lot of factors that affect something like that. Keep in mind that some characters might not be able to grab you when you're ducking or in the air, and remind folks of this as necessary.

I don't really see the point in hiding this ._. I mean shouldn't we all advance the meta together?

 

[Kojii]

Enjoy

 

[Zerp]

As much as I wish this grab release wasn't a thing, I think we should tell everyone who's got the release, in my opinion, it's our duty as a civil part of the community to give everyone the knowledge they need to know, regardless if it's good or bad for us.

Anyways though, the gentleman who posted the Shulk grab-release video on Youtube updated their description with something a little interesting.
"UPDATE: Jigglypuff can try to use a mid-air jump while holding away during the air release. This allows her to avoid being kill confirmed by Monado Smash art since she'll be launched too high, but Monado Jump art allows Shulk's Air Slash to still scoop her into the second slash. Rage has yet to of been tested. It's very likely that if Shulk had too much Rage accumulated, even Monado Jump art's Air Slash would launch her too high should she use a mid-air jump."

So essentially, we're safe from smash art Shulk's kill confirm if we hold away and jump, but jump art Shulk's is still a kill confirm, at least without rage.

 

[GeeHaus]

I disagree. There is nothing immoral about withholding your weakness from your opponent.

If you were sitting next to a Shulk player tomorrow at a tournament, with money on the line, would you turn to them and say, "Try grab release into Air Slash?"

Didn't think so.

I'm not about to make a serious effort to hide this information, (that would be silly,) but you won't see me spreading it throughout the internet either. You and I play a character that finds value in matchup inexperience. In a world as bleak as Puff's metagame, why would we intentionally gimp that advantage?

 

[Kojii]

In a world as bleak as Puff's metagame, why would we intentionally gimp that advantage?

"Because Puff only relies on gimping" - any non puff player ever.
Jokes aside, they patched the Wario grab release, so why not spread this so maybe they'll patch it as well.

 

[Kojii]

Don't mind me I managed to post twice.
To make this post not spam
Have anyone looked into option selects?

 

[CHOVI]

I disagree. There is nothing immoral about withholding your weakness from your opponent.

If you were sitting next to a Shulk player tomorrow at a tournament, with money on the line, would you turn to them and say, "Try grab release into Air Slash?"

Didn't think so.

I'm not about to make a serious effort to hide this information, (that would be silly,) but you won't see me spreading it throughout the internet either. You and I play a character that finds value in matchup inexperience. In a world as bleak as Puff's metagame, why would we intentionally gimp that advantage?

I don't think it's immoral, but it hinders progress in the meta...
Also, you obviously wouldn't tell him when you're about to play because giving advice before a match with someone is generally not a good idea when there's money on the line...
But I don't see that as the same as posting it in on the internet tbh.

Don't mind me I managed to post twice.
To make this post not spam
Have anyone looked into option selects?

That's awesome!!
Also yeah, Reflex talked about option selects in his footstool to rest video.

 

[Deleted member]

Just since you guys don't want it to be revealed, I'll make a post in Competitive Impressions showing how most characters can mess up Jigglypuff out of air release :^)

 

[CHOVI]

By the way, a friend and I were testing this and apparently Cloud can do an upair after air release and so can Marth (not too sure though)

 

[Smeefy]

Don't mind me I managed to post twice.
To make this post not spam
Have anyone looked into option selects?

I've been looking all over the Internet for possible jigglypuff option selects

 

[Deleted member]

Just so you know the air release stuff is under progress! My list will be posted in a couple hours hopefully.

 

[Codaption]

Just since you guys don't want it to be revealed, I'll make a post in Competitive Impressions showing how most characters can mess up Jigglypuff out of air release :^)

Well, crud.

.........





Meh. It was already posted to YouTube, anyway, so it's not like it wouldn't spread around like wildfire.

(And I was partially joking about hiding it, this is the Internet after all, but really guys... why would you want to spread this around? I'm all for meta progression, but we get nothing from everyone knowing that they have this option against us and it'd be yet another nail in the coffin for our meta.)

"Because Puff only relies on gimping" - any non puff player ever.
Jokes aside, they patched the Wario grab release, so why not spread this so maybe they'll patch it as well.

Unless you're thinking like this, of course, which actually makes a decent amount of sense. That being said, it'd be pretty difficult to make this well-known enough for them to patch it out, not to mention that if we didn't succeed we'd have just made another weakness of ours a widespread fact.

In the event that it becomes a widespread fact on its own, though (tbh it might), I see nothing wrong with trying for this route... in the form of calling for its removal, of course. It'd be the first direct buff we'd ever get that wasn't terrible, and it's far from game-breaking to fix something like this.

 

[Deleted member]

Gonna jot down notes for all the characters I've gotten. it's getting late and I can't do any more characters tonight because I'm sleepy. I'll finish up tomorrow.

Reliable Followups Out of Air Release

: Looks like the eternal understudy outdoes his brother. Luigi has kill confirms with back air and Cyclone, the latter being particularly deadly if done on the top platform of Battlefield or Dream Land.

: Forward air is a kill confirm from every angle due to its sweeping hitbox.
: Forward air and back air are kill confirms.
: Can also do forward air and back air, but both don't kill until north of 100%. He's able to do up air if its on Smashville's moving platform.
: Foward air and up air can be used. The former is a kill confirm near the ledge, the latter anywhere on stage but particularly deadly on BF/DL's platforms.
: Fair, nair and bair can be used out of it. Nair and bair reliably kill at high percents.
: Down air is a KO confirm.
: Neutral air kills, up air kills on Smashville's platform.
: Forward air is a kill confirm at the ledge, Fire if hit just right.
: Forward air and Spin Attack are kill confirms anywhere on the stage.
: Bouncing Fish is a KO confirm from 90-100%, and is even more deadly with rage.
: Hoooo boy Ganon has the most deadly followups out of all the characters I've labbed so far. Forward air, uair, and bair are all guaranteed KO confirms, especially at the ledge. He also has the option of using Dark Dive, even if it doesn't kill reliably.
: Forward air, back air, Spin Attack and neutral air are all KO confirms.
: Neutral air, forward air, Charge Shot and back air are KO confirms.
: Boost Kick is 100% guaranteed. You don't even have to move towards Jiggs to do it similar to Shulk with Air Slash whenever in Smash or Jump mode. She can also do Flip Kick out of air release when she's near a ledge and spike Jiggs.

Situational Followups Out of Air Release

: Mario's finicky, he doesn't do air release unless near the edge of a stage or platform. When that's the case though, Super Jump Punch and up air can be used out of it. Neithe really kill that well until north of 120%, so I would not worry.

: The angle is just right for Zelda to perform her Lightning Kicks, but she's here due to the move's needed precision to hit it due to the small sweetspot it has.

No or Lackluster Followups Out of Air Release

: Diddy can use fair, bair and uair out of it but there's so little reward in it that there's no point in doing so.
: lol

 

[CHOVI]

This is scary...

 

[Soft Serve]

lmao glad I quit this character/game

Puff is turning into the ness/lucas of brawl. Grab release set-ups are the cheesiest of cheese.

Really dumb tbh. I admire all of your courage to continue being a low tier hero and wish you the best. Thought about playing smash 4 again, caught up on the thread, I'm just sticking to my top tiers in melee/pm. Good luck everyone.

 

[Kojii]

@Feelicks how did you lab this by the way?

 

[Deleted member]

@Feelicks how did you lab this by the way?

I do it in training mode, then do it in a regular Smash match with infinite time to see if the results also match up. It seems to work. I also put Jigglypuff at around 80-90% since that's when she's mostly bound to die from something.

 

[Kojii]

I do it in training mode, then do it in a regular Smash match with infinite time to see if the results also match up. It seems to work. I also put Jigglypuff at around 80-90% since that's when she's mostly bound to die from something.

Did you find anything out about when you can DI, how efficient DI is and what happened to Meta Knight and Captain Falcon?
Great work by the way (:

 

[Deleted member]

Did you find anything out about when you can DI, how efficient DI is and what happened to Meta Knight and Captain Falcon?
Great work by the way (:

I have yet to to test MK or Falcon, but you can't DI out to of air release, only jump out of the animation.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: MOST OF THE FOLLOWUPS ON THIS LIST HAVE BEEN PROVEN UNTRUE. DO NOT TAKE THESE FOLLOWUPS INTO ACCOUNT.

Proud to announce that after endless hours of labbing, the air release followups for all of the cast on Jigglypuff is finished! Here's said list:

Reliable Followups Out of Air Release

: Looks like the eternal understudy outdoes his brother. Luigi has kill confirms with back air and Cyclone, the latter being particularly deadly if done on the top platform of Battlefield or Dream Land.
: Forward air is a kill confirm from every angle due to its sweeping hitbox.
: Forward air and back air are kill confirms.
: Can also do forward air and back air, but both don't kill until north of 100%. He's able to do up air if its on Smashville's moving platform.
: Foward air and up air can be used. The former is a kill confirm near the ledge, the latter anywhere on stage but particularly deadly on BF/DL's platforms.
: Fair, nair and bair can be used out of it. Nair and bair reliably kill at high percents.
: Down air is a KO confirm.
: Neutral air kills, up air kills on Smashville's platform.
: Forward air is a kill confirm at the ledge, Fire if hit just right.
: Air Slash is a KO confirm in either Smash or Jump mode.
: Forward air and Spin Attack are kill confirms anywhere on the stage.
: Bouncing Fish is a KO confirm from 90-100%, and is even more deadly with rage.
: Hoooo boy Ganon has the most deadly followups out of all the characters I've labbed so far. Forward air, uair, and bair are all guaranteed KO confirms, especially at the ledge. He also has the option of using Dark Dive, even if it doesn't kill reliably.
: Forward air, back air, Spin Attack and neutral air are all KO confirms.
: Neutral air, forward air, Charge Shot and back air are KO confirms.
: Boost Kick is 100% guaranteed. You don't even have to move towards Jiggs to do it similar to Shulk with Air Slash whenever in Smash or Jump mode. She can also do Flip Kick out of air release when she's near a ledge and spike Jiggs.
: Up air, forward air and neutral air are KO confirms. Down air is is a spike confirm when air release is done at the ledge.
: Back air is a KO confirm. Forward air and Upperdash Arm are other followups.
: Neutral air and up air are KO confirms, back air kills when done at the ledge. Forward air is a followup but it's not advised due to the move's low knockback.
: Very same as Pit.
: Tipper nair, bair and fair are KO confirms. Dolphin Slash and up smash can kill when done at the ledge or at the end of a platform.
: Bair and fair are KO confirms. Up smash is a KO confirm when done at the ledge or at the end of a platform.
: Sweetspotted fair, sweetspotted bair and Blazer are KO confirms.
: Levin Sword forward air, back air and up air are KO confirms.
: Dedede's back air is a KO confirm. Forward air is a followup but of little utility due to its low knockback onstage and even at the ledge.
: Shuttle Loop is a fully guaranteed KO confirm, back air is a KO confirm above 100% and can even kill earlier if rage is factored in.
: Back air is a KO confirm. Forward air and neutral air are also followups, but lack KO power.
: Forward air is a KO confirm above 105%, particularly at the ledge. Back air deserves to be feared in every way. Down air can spike at the ledge, but this requires proper timing due to the move's startup.
: Fly is a KO confirm, as is sweetspotted back air. Forward air is also another followup, up air can also be used but is tricky and needs strict timing.
: Forward air is a KO confirm, back air is another followup out of release and can be easily improved in terms of knockback by rage.
: Back air and Aura Sphere are KO confirms. Forward air is a followup that kills with enough Aura, up air is very situational due to its narrow hitbox.
: Yey, a mirror match! Puff has a back air KO confirm on herself, and Rest can be used as a followup on air release as well if timed right on-point.
: Forward air and Shadow Ball are KO confirms, as is up air when done on low-ceiling stages or on top of Battlefield/Dream Land. Back air is another followup that also benefits from when Mewtwo is in rage.
: Back air is a KO confirm, neutral air and forward air don't kill but also can be used as followups.
: Ooooh boy.. back air and up air are KO confirms, along with forward air and neutral air being followups with the latter being able to kill with rage. Down air is a situational spike at the ledge due to slow startup.
: Sweetspotted fair is a KO confirm, sweetspotted back air spikes at the ledge, up air requires strict timing due to it's tiny hitbox.
: You guys ain't gonna like this. Falcon's Knee and back air are KO confirms, up air is especially deadly on Battlefield/Dream Land's top platforms or any other stage with a low ceiling. Down air is a spike at the ledge, and if that doesn't hit the move's sourspot is capable of KOing Jiggs to the side blast zone.
: Can do Rising Uppercut right out of air release.
: Forward air and back are are KO confirms. Dr. Tornado kills at the ledge, and is very deadly on low ceiling stages or on Battlefield/Dream Land's top platforms.
: Down air and back air are KO confirms north of 110%. Neutral air and forward air may also be used as followups but are weaker than the moves just mentioned.
: Back air is a rather deadly kill confirm. Forward air is another followup out of air release.
: Back air is a kill confirm (so many back airs as KO confirms, lmao), forward air is particularly deadly with Rage or at the ledge.
: Back air, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku (when inputted), Shoryuken & True Shoryuken are ALL guaranteed KO confirms. Forward air is a followup as well, and down air is a spike confirm at the ledge.
: Oh dear... forward air has a spike confirm at the ledge, up air is a KO confirm on low-ceiling stages and on top of Battlefield/Dream Land, back air is a followupa s well. Finishing Touch is a KO confirm out of air release. Watch out for this. Seriously.
: Helicopter Kick and Onslaught are KO confirms.
: Back air is a KO confirm.
: Back air and forward air are KO confirms, as is Hero's Spin.

Situational Followups Out of Air Release

: Mario's finicky, he doesn't do air release unless near the edge of a stage or platform. When that's the case though, Super Jump Punch and up air can be used out of it. Neither really kill that well until north of 120%, so I would not worry.

: The angle is just right for Zelda to perform her Lightning Kicks, but she's here due to the move's needed precision to hit it due to the small sweetspot it has.

: Forward air is a followup, back air is very tricky to hit with due to its startup but kills. Puff falls out of up air before all three hits connect.

: Puff falls out of Kirby's forward air, usually after the first or last hits. Nair is too weak as a followup, and bair only has the chance of its sourspot hitting limiting its utility. However, uncharged Hammer Flip is a KO confirm and especially deadly on top of Battlefield or Dream Land.
: The specific properties of Olimar's grab (it having the Pikmin grab for him) require precision in order to initiate air release, usually right just near the ledge of the stage or just near the end of a platform. Despite this, Olimar's back air is a KO confirm.

No or Lackluster Followups Out of Air Release

: Diddy can use fair, bair and uair out of it but there's so little reward in it that there's no point in doing so due to their low knockback onstage.
: Lucina's aerials don't KO until very high percentages, making it pointless for her to perform an air release on Jiggs.
: Forward air and back air are too weak to kill at any realistic percentages anywhere on the stage, Thunderspike at ledge is extremely situational and not advised.
: Villager's only real followups are fair, nair and bair, which aren't all that useful due to their low knockback.

 

[Koiba]

Proud to announce that after endless hours of labbing, the air release followups for all of the cast on Jigglypuff is finished! Here's said list:

Reliable Followups Out of Air Release

: Looks like the eternal understudy outdoes his brother. Luigi has kill confirms with back air and Cyclone, the latter being particularly deadly if done on the top platform of Battlefield or Dream Land.
: Forward air is a kill confirm from every angle due to its sweeping hitbox.
: Forward air and back air are kill confirms.
: Can also do forward air and back air, but both don't kill until north of 100%. He's able to do up air if its on Smashville's moving platform.
: Foward air and up air can be used. The former is a kill confirm near the ledge, the latter anywhere on stage but particularly deadly on BF/DL's platforms.
: Fair, nair and bair can be used out of it. Nair and bair reliably kill at high percents.
: Down air is a KO confirm.
: Neutral air kills, up air kills on Smashville's platform.
: Forward air is a kill confirm at the ledge, Fire if hit just right.
: Air Slash is a KO confirm in either Smash or Jump mode.
: Forward air and Spin Attack are kill confirms anywhere on the stage.
: Bouncing Fish is a KO confirm from 90-100%, and is even more deadly with rage.
: Hoooo boy Ganon has the most deadly followups out of all the characters I've labbed so far. Forward air, uair, and bair are all guaranteed KO confirms, especially at the ledge. He also has the option of using Dark Dive, even if it doesn't kill reliably.
: Forward air, back air, Spin Attack and neutral air are all KO confirms.
: Neutral air, forward air, Charge Shot and back air are KO confirms.
: Boost Kick is 100% guaranteed. You don't even have to move towards Jiggs to do it similar to Shulk with Air Slash whenever in Smash or Jump mode. She can also do Flip Kick out of air release when she's near a ledge and spike Jiggs.
: Up air, forward air and neutral air are KO confirms. Down air is is a spike confirm when air release is done at the ledge.
: Back air is a KO confirm. Forward air and Upperdash Arm are other followups.
: Neutral air and up air are KO confirms, back air kills when done at the ledge. Forward air is a followup but it's not advised due to the move's low knockback.
: Very same as Pit.
: Tipper nair, bair and fair are KO confirms. Tippered Dolphin Slash and up smash are also KO confirms when done at the ledge or at the end of a platform.
: Bair and fair are KO confirms. Up smash is a KO confirm when done at the ledge or at the end of a platform.
: Sweetspotted fair, sweetspotted bair and Blazer are KO confirms.
: Levin Sword forward air, back air and up air are KO confirms.
: Dedede's back air is a KO confirm. Forward air is a followup but of little utility due to its low knockback onstage and even at the ledge.
: Shuttle Loop is a fully guaranteed KO confirm, back air is a KO confirm above 100% and can even kill earlier if rage is factored in.
: Back air is a KO confirm. Forward air and neutral air are also followups, but lack KO power.
: Forward air is a KO confirm above 105%, particularly at the ledge. Back air deserves to be feared in every way. Down air can spike at the ledge, but this requires proper timing due to the move's startup.
: Fly is a KO confirm, as is sweetspotted back air. Forward air is also another followup, up air can also be used but is tricky and needs strict timing.
: Forward air is a KO confirm, back air is another followup out of release and can be easily improved in terms of knockback by rage.
: Back air and Aura Sphere are KO confirms. Forward air is a followup that kills with enough Aura, up air is very situational due to its narrow hitbox.
: Yey, a mirror match! Puff has a back air KO confirm on herself, and Rest can be used as a followup on air release as well if timed right on-point.
: Forward air and Shadow Ball are KO confirms, as is up air when done on low-ceiling stages or on top of Battlefield/Dream Land. Back air is another followup that also benefits from when Mewtwo is in rage.
: Back air is a KO confirm, neutral air and forward air don't kill but also can be used as followups.
: Ooooh boy.. back air and up air are KO confirms, along with forward air and neutral air being followups with the latter being able to kill with rage. Down air is a situational spike at the ledge due to slow startup.
: Sweetspotted fair is a KO confirm, sweetspotted back air spikes at the ledge, up air requires strict timing due to it's tiny hitbox.
: You guys ain't gonna like this. Falcon's Knee and back air are KO confirms, up air is especially deadly on Battlefield/Dream Land's top platforms or any other stage with a low ceiling. Down air is a spike at the ledge, and if that doesn't hit the move's sourspot is capable of KOing Jiggs to the side blast zone.
: Forward air and back are are KO confirms. Dr. Tornado kills at the ledge, and is very deadly on low ceiling stages or on Battlefield/Dream Land's top platforms.
: Down air and back air are KO confirms north of 110%. Neutral air and forward air may also be used as followups but are weaker than the moves just mentioned.
: Back air is a rather deadly kill confirm. Forward air is another followup out of air release.
: Back air is a kill confirm (so many back airs as KO confirms, lmao), forward air is particularly deadly with Rage or at the ledge.
: Back air, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku (when inputted), Shoryuken & True Shoryuken are ALL guaranteed KO confirms. Forward air is a followup as well, and down air is a spike confirm at the ledge.
: Oh dear... forward air has a spike confirm at the ledge, up air is a KO confirm on low-ceiling stages and on top of Battlefield/Dream Land, back air is a followupa s well. Finishing Touch is a KO confirm out of air release. Watch out for this. Seriously.
: Helicopter Kick and Onslaught are KO confirms.
: Back air is a KO confirm.
: Back air and forward air are KO confirms, as is Hero's Spin.

Situational Followups Out of Air Release

: Mario's finicky, he doesn't do air release unless near the edge of a stage or platform. When that's the case though, Super Jump Punch and up air can be used out of it. Neither really kill that well until north of 120%, so I would not worry.

: The angle is just right for Zelda to perform her Lightning Kicks, but she's here due to the move's needed precision to hit it due to the small sweetspot it has.

: Forward air is a followup, back air is very tricky to hit with due to its startup but kills. Puff falls out of up air before all three hits connect.

: Puff falls out of Kirby's forward air, usually after the first or last hits. Nair is too weak as a followup, and bair only has the chance of its sourspot hitting limiting its utility. However, uncharged Hammer Flip is a KO confirm and especially deadly on top of Battlefield or Dream Land.
: The specific properties of Olimar's grab (it having the Pikmin grab for him) require precision in order to initiate air release, usually right just near the ledge of the stage or just near the end of a platform. Despite this, Olimar's back air is a KO confirm.

No or Lackluster Followups Out of Air Release

: Diddy can use fair, bair and uair out of it but there's so little reward in it that there's no point in doing so due to their low knockback onstage.
: lol
: Lucina's aerials and Dolphin Slash don't KO until very high percentages, making it pointless for her to perform an air release on Jiggs.
: Forward air and back air are too weak to kill at any realistic percentages anywhere on the stage, Thunderspike at ledge is extremely situational and not advised.
: Villager's only real followups are fair, nair and bair, which aren't all that useful due to their low knockback.

Mac can't do a jump cancelled up b?

 

[Lavani]

Little Mac has guaranteed air release>upB, which can kill.

Dolphin Slashes have the exact same hitboxes and neither has a tipper; the strong hit's at the start and the weak hit (the hit that's guaranteed) is at the top.

Boost Kick and Shuttle Loop can be escaped with Rest, but it won't hit them so you're still going to die.

Almost everything else listed here except for maybe Shoryuken and Fly can be double jumped out of.

 

[Deleted member]

Little Mac has guaranteed air release>upB, which can kill.

Dolphin Slashes have the exact same hitboxes and neither has a tipper; the strong hit's at the start and the weak hit (the hit that's guaranteed) is at the top.

Boost Kick and Shuttle Loop can be escaped with Rest, but it won't hit them so you're still going to die.

Everything else listed here except for maybe Shoryuken and Fly can be double jumped out of.

I thought Marth's Dolphin Slash had a tipper. My mistake.

And Mac has that? Dang.

 

[Kojii]

I think our new motto is
"Don't get grabbed"

I'm impressed with you labbing @Feelicks it's nicely done. Did you post in the competitive impressions thread yet?

 

[Deleted member]

I think our new motto is
"Don't get grabbed"

I'm impressed with you labbing @Feelicks it's nicely done. Did you post in the competitive impressions thread yet?

Thanks. I'll probs post it later, got stuff to do

 

[CHOVI]

I need help with the Roy matchup. He feels too fast and outranges us. His moves are deadly and kill at low percents. Not to mention his recovery is tricky to gimp.
Any advice on how to approach and how to fight him in general?