Jigglypuff 1.13

[MarioMeteor]

We all know the deal, more patches, more problems. Any changes related to our fair balloon go here.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

As predicted, Cloud bodies Jigglypuff. And most characters who have an advantage against Jigglypuff got buffs. A pretty sad state of affairs so far

 

[Kojii]

And most characters who have an advantage against Jigglypuff got buffs.

You mean the whole cast got buffed? /s
We just have to find some sick setup to deal with all these patches.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

You mean the whole cast got buffed? /s
We just have to find some sick setup to deal with all these patches.

We always have our counter resting, but that only gets us so far w/o dedicating ourselves to being frame perfect 99/100 times like m2k.

 

[CHOVI]

Why does Cloud body Jiggs?

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Why does Cloud body Jiggs?

Faster Ike with a projectile that can power himself up at any time. I've seen people on stream accidentally get kills with him too many times not to think he would be a counter(or maybe I'm paranoid) but here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VdAtONfs_Y

 

[RedBeanPorridge]

Any changes to Jigglypuff? Beed stalking the 1.1.3 changelog thread and it's painful that no changes have been reported.
It's like Sakurai completely forgot Jigglypuff is even a character in this game.

 

[CHOVI]

Any changes to Jigglypuff? Beed stalking the 1.1.3 changelog thread and it's painful that no changes have been reported.
It's like Sakurai completely forgot Jigglypuff is even a character in this game.

Every single patch it's the same

 

[me quazzy]

We don't get any priority over him unlike other characters where we do. The only move we can use to get priority is pound and it's got to be in the air or else he'll just shield and side smash (which is basically a kill against Jigglypuff with all 3 hits at around 30-40%).
Our best chance against him is to get him offstage because his recovery is only vertical. His arials are a little better than ours with his reach. I've been working grabs against him to get him offstage but I don't recommend it.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

We don't get any priority over him unlike other characters where we do. The only move we can use to get priority is pound and it's got to be in the air or else he'll just shield and side smash (which is basically a kill against Jigglypuff with all 3 hits at around 30-40%).
Our best chance against him is to get him offstage because his recovery is only vertical. His arials are a little better than ours with his reach. I've been working grabs against him to get him offstage but I don't recommend it.

That description makes Cloud seem like a nightmare to fight. I personally still have not faced one yet, but do you think we could abuse the invincibility frames in our dash attack to out prioritize him?

 

[me quazzy]

I forgot about that one. I don't like using it because it's a dash attack but it does beat some of Cloud's priority.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Or what about the invincibility in Rest or d-smash? Every little frame advantage we can get should be exploited.

 

[me quazzy]

Rest invincibility works. Down smash is hard to hit as it is. Cloud has good range on the ground too or at least enough to keep us away. I love down smash but I don't see us using it unless he gets too close. Same can be said for side and up smash. Best choice we have is to play puff as usual with read and reacting. Catch him when he lands or when he uses side smash and that move with the markings (side special?). Same with his recovery with the downward option (Ike's recovery).
This matchup is just a big disadvantage for us. It's like all sword fighter match ups.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

We need a NEW tech to fight sword fighters....any ideas?

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I'm kind of bummed she didn't get any buff at all in this patch, but I already take this as common.
Let's hope she will get anything on the next patch!

Song of Hope

 

[Stickmanlolz]

If only they made sing into a gimmicky taunt and gave us a new up-b to help us recover. Then we would have the best of both worlds(never will happen)

 

[CHOVI]

I fought a Cloud and the matchup does indeed feel like a nightmare. I seriously couldn't do much ¬¬ his aerials are very fast for the range they have and his moves are hard to punish. I'll have to keep trying, but at this point, I don't really know what to do :/

 

[Stickmanlolz]

I saw a match on youtube of Fox vs. Cloud this is what I got from it:
Keep him in the air directly above you bait out the d-air then punish meanwhile trying to mix up your movement.When he is off the stage quickly run up and do a RAR so that you can gimp him with f-air or n-air. I know Fox is nothing like jigglypuff, but this is all I could get

 

[Drevis2]

As predicted, Cloud bodies Jigglypuff. And most characters who have an advantage against Jigglypuff got buffs. A pretty sad state of affairs so far

Not really imo, if we play our spacing right we can beat him. His projectile is easy to avoid and/or shield, and he's easily gimped. He beats us in some scenario's, but he isn't THAT good against us. I can beat some good clouds with puff.

 

[Stickmanlolz]

Not really imo, if we play our spacing right we can beat him. His projectile is easy to avoid and/or shield, and he's easily gimped. He beats us in some scenario's, but he isn't THAT good against us. I can beat some good clouds with puff.

That was just my initial reaction. my opinion now is that he is somewhere between yoshi and marth, but in all reality it is too soon to draw conclusions on the MU.

 

[MarioMeteor]

At the very least, Cloud is easier to Rest.

 

[Thirtyfour]

At the very least, Cloud is easier to Rest.

Cloud has a better rest though.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Cloud has a better rest though.

No he doesn't. Finishing Touch KOs lightweights at the percent Rest KOs heavyweights.

 

[Demoloque]

No he doesn't. Finishing Touch KOs lightweights at the percent Rest KOs heavyweights.

Except it's way easier to land, easier to combo into it and not as punishable.

 

[drakeirving]

links better with everything also you don't die if you miss

 

[MarioMeteor]

Except it's way easier to land, easier to combo into it and not as punishable.

And in return you can only use it once in a blue moon, after which all your stats drop and you most likely won't live long enough to use it again. And Rest isn't that hard to land.

 

[Thirtyfour]

No he doesn't. Finishing Touch KOs lightweights at the percent Rest KOs heavyweights.

Half the recovery, windbox, much easier to combo into, disjointed, much more active, etc.

Don't get me wrong ,I love mai waifu, but let's not pretend Rest can compete with Finishing Touch. No Star/Splat KO as Cloud and it's whatever, but as Jiggs? That could be a stock.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I usually play Jiggly as an alt, but I have faced a ton of clouds and I can imagine how Jiggz would struggle against him. However, I think the key to beating Cloud in general is to not be afraid of him. His startups to his ground moves are particular long, and if you can catch him starting up an fsmash you can string him pretty well. Once your in on him keep the pressure up and don't be afraid to go deep because of his awful recovery. I would recommend nairs because their hitbox is out longer and it's easier to follow him with. His recovery also doesn't lock to ledge, and can be manipulated fairly easily--For Jiggs I would recommend d-tilt on-stage instead of dsmash because it's quicker, and it looks like it reaches further, while still having a strong, downward-angled knockback.
Jigglys fastest move is probably her forward tilt, so I would recommend using that to start off later combo strings--just be sure to keep the pressure up and not double clutch.

I love playing Jiggly, but it's a sad time for her in Sm4sh right now, and Cloud is definitely a force to be reckoned with. Once your in, don't let up. Don't be afraid to try weird things a well, like Neutral B shield breaking--surprises are helpful in unfamiliar matchups.

I know this is coming from a Mario main, but I hope this helps.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Half the recovery, windbox, much easier to combo into, disjointed, much more active, etc.

Don't get me wrong ,I love mai waifu, but let's not pretend Rest can compete with Finishing Touch. No Star/Splat KO as Cloud and it's whatever, but as Jiggs? That could be a stock.

And that's assuming you hit with it, and considering that Rest is frame 3 with invincibility on startup and Finishing Touch is something like frame 16, I honestly can't believe we're having this conversation.

 

[Thirtyfour]

And that's assuming you hit with it, and considering that Rest is frame 3 with invincibility on startup and Finishing Touch is something like frame 16, I honestly can't believe we're having this conversation.

I can't believe I'm trying to reason with Jigglypuff players in the Jigglypuff board. At least you're not as bad as Mii Sword mains.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I can't believe I'm trying to reason with Jigglypuff players in the Jigglypuff board. At least you're not as bad as Mii Sword mains.

Imagine that. The Jigglypuff players on the Jigglypuff boards know something about Jigglypuff!

 

[drakeirving]

no you're being pretty unreasonable here tbh
EDIT: Re: mario, not 34

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Despite not being near as bad as I thought it would be, the Cloud matchup is in his favor, but not by much. Maybe a 45:55? I prefer to stick with Kirby against him, but it isn't that bad. You can do quite some good stuff against him (like the Pound, F-Air, Rest combo). Just make sure to weave in and out rather than just shielding, some of his attacks can do like, 50% damage. His F-Smash is kind of scary.

 

[MisterDom]

Uh...

ThirtyFour is right.... Why are we arguing? Like seriously, Rest isn't near as good as Finishing Touch. It's like arguing against Wario's Waft and Rest. Yes, the waft you gotta wait a minute and 50 seconds, but it's super powerful, hard to punish, and can be comboed into... Kinda moderately easy.

Sure, Rest kills earlier than finishing touch, and gives the opponent tons of damage while finishing touch does a laughable 1%, but it's still powerful, and can be comboed into, and is much bigger. Charging it also comes pretty fast, and really fast if you play an actual good Cloud.

The Cloud matchup is bad. It deserves its own thread with ideas and stuff. It shouldn't be on this thread when it's about version 1.13.

 

[CHOVI]

Uh...

ThirtyFour is right.... Why are we arguing? Like seriously, Rest isn't near as good as Finishing Touch. It's like arguing against Wario's Waft and Rest. Yes, the waft you gotta wait a minute and 50 seconds, but it's super powerful, hard to punish, and can be comboed into... Kinda moderately easy.

Sure, Rest kills earlier than finishing touch, and gives the opponent tons of damage while finishing touch does a laughable 1%, but it's still powerful, and can be comboed into, and is much bigger. Charging it also comes pretty fast, and really fast if you play an actual good Cloud.

The Cloud matchup is bad. It deserves its own thread with ideas and stuff. It shouldn't be on this thread when it's about version 1.13.

In regards to that, maybe we should make a thread for each matchup(?) Jiggly

 

[Jiggly]

multiple mu threads just makes the forum cluttered and unorganized :/


MU thread is back though...

 

[MarioMeteor]

Uh...

ThirtyFour is right.... Why are we arguing? Like seriously, Rest isn't near as good as Finishing Touch. It's like arguing against Wario's Waft and Rest. Yes, the waft you gotta wait a minute and 50 seconds, but it's super powerful, hard to punish, and can be comboed into... Kinda moderately easy.

Sure, Rest kills earlier than finishing touch, and gives the opponent tons of damage while finishing touch does a laughable 1%, but it's still powerful, and can be comboed into, and is much bigger. Charging it also comes pretty fast, and really fast if you play an actual good Cloud.

The Cloud matchup is bad. It deserves its own thread with ideas and stuff. It shouldn't be on this thread when it's about version 1.13.

The difference between Waft and Touch is that you'll actually get more than one per match. Finishing Touch has maybe two guaranteed follow ups, which may be more than Rest, but the odds of you landing it otherwise is next to none. Let's also not forget that a Rest that doesn't kill nets you 30+%, while a Finishing Touch that doesn't kill deals a whopping 1%.

 

[MisterDom]

The difference between Waft and Touch is that you'll actually get more than one per match. Finishing Touch has maybe two guaranteed follow ups, which may be more than Rest, but the odds of you landing it otherwise is next to none. Let's also not forget that a Rest that doesn't kill nets you 30+%, while a Finishing Touch that doesn't kill deals a whopping 1%.

Actually, I will say I now think Finishing Touch isn't that much better as I thought, but still...

It's pretty good... and still better for reasons already settled.

 

[CHOVI]

multiple mu threads just makes the forum cluttered and unorganized :/


MU thread is back though...

I think it'd be a neat way to discuss a particular matchup without making a mess of the MU thread. But okay, you know better

The difference between Waft and Touch is that you'll actually get more than one per match. Finishing Touch has maybe two guaranteed follow ups, which may be more than Rest, but the odds of you landing it otherwise is next to none. Let's also not forget that a Rest that doesn't kill nets you 30+%, while a Finishing Touch that doesn't kill deals a whopping 1%.

And a restthat doesn't kill also nets you a big punish while Finishing Touch doesn't

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think it'd be a neat way to discuss a particular matchup without making a mess of the MU thread. But okay, you know better


And a restthat doesn't kill also nets you a big punish while Finishing Touch doesn't

And as noted above, you'll likely only get one per match.

Actually, I will say I now think Finishing Touch isn't that much better as I thought, but still...

It's pretty good... and still better for reasons already settled.

Let's just compromise and say Rest is better in 2 stocks, Finishing Touch is better in 3 stocks, and Cross Slash is better than both of them.