[Jan 24, 2015] Cincinnati Smash Forever - SSBU/SSBM/SSBPM (Cincinnati, Ohio)

[SoulPech]

As I've already mentioned, I think for sm4sh we need to expand the meta game, so that we can fully understand the game and interactions with many different stages, movesets, etc. This is how it was done in melee (was 5 stocks and rainbow cruise/mute city was legal...oh the old days) and in brawl, but I feel it wasn't properly done. Limiting options is only going to limit the meta. I know Hael Phael and myself talked about it and I feel he's right.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Sorry for all the questions, I'm not well versed in this kind of thing, but what is a pool, and how does it work? I couldn't find anything with my meager search engine skills.

Basically, you and a couple other players are put in a "pool" together, and every player in that pool has to play a set against every other player. This is then used to "seed" the bracket, which basically splits up the players of different skill levels up evenly over the whole bracket.

This is my bad lazy explanation, but if you're ever confused about anything while at the tournament, feel free to ask. Everyone loves helping out new players.

 

[Mister Eric]

I'm starting to think that we need to have the meta open as much as possible. That way we can understand the game better, then start limiting down options. I'm all for Custom Moves.

uRite.
It's simply a personal preference.
I mainly just want a standard (eventually).

 

[PiBs]

Why no Doubles?? Also, Customs on? Ew...

No doubles due to there not being time for them in a one day event with three major games being run with pools and bracket. We all have to learn customs eventually; you are not behind either because this is the first Cincinnati tournament with them legal.

 

[Overswarm]

uRite.
It's simply a personal preference.
I mainly just want a standard (eventually).

Standards are discovered, not built.

Melee used absolutely every single stage it possibly could and said "deal with it". If someone said they didn't like a stage, they were called a scrub.

As time went on, you could find discrepancies in data, tournament results. Overcentralization started occuring -- characters like Fox dominated virtually every other character on stages like Onett and Rainbow Cruise, save for a select few. We observed this. No one cared what other people "felt", if people didn't like Melee then they didn't play Melee. People cared what actually happened.

In Brawl, people came in fresh off of Melee and tried to recreate Brawl in Melee's image. It sucked. Scrubs mostly made the rulesets and stagelists, or at least had influence.

Saying "we should have a standard" and not having evidence, YEARS of evidence, in which to create a standard is essentially saying "what I prefer is more important than what you prefer and I'm not patient enough to wait".

 

[Mister Eric]

Standards are discovered, not built.

Melee used absolutely every single stage it possibly could and said "deal with it". If someone said they didn't like a stage, they were called a scrub.

As time went on, you could find discrepancies in data, tournament results. Overcentralization started occuring -- characters like Fox dominated virtually every other character on stages like Onett and Rainbow Cruise, save for a select few. We observed this. No one cared what other people "felt", if people didn't like Melee then they didn't play Melee. People cared what actually happened.

In Brawl, people came in fresh off of Melee and tried to recreate Brawl in Melee's image. It sucked. Scrubs mostly made the rulesets and stagelists, or at least had influence.

Saying "we should have a standard" and not having evidence, YEARS of evidence, in which to create a standard is essentially saying "what I prefer is more important than what you prefer and I'm not patient enough to wait".

edited:
<3

 

[ithrowthings]

Probly bringin a NEOH car to this.

 

[PiBs]

Probly bringin a NEOH car to this.

Awesome, NEOH hasn't been to any of my tournaments yet.

 

[ithrowthings]

We've been busy doing awesome NEOH things.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Dude I haven't seen you guys in ages. Hype.

Edit: Important question. How would "any omega" be chosen during the first game of the set, considering stage strike will be in effect. Which player will choose the Omega to be played on?

Making it so that only Final Destination can be played for the starter works much better, with the Omega stages being able to be chosen by any player that counterpicks FD.

 

[PiBs]

Dude I haven't seen you guys in ages. Hype.

Edit: Important question. How would "any omega" be chosen during the first game of the set, considering stage strike will be in effect. Which player will choose the Omega to be played on?

Making it so that only Final Destination can be played for the starter works much better, with the Omega stages being able to be chosen by any player that counterpicks FD.

Omega stages replace FD, you can only play on omega stages if final destination is not banned.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

No, I mean for the starter.

Player A strikes BF
Player B strikes Lylat and T&C
Player A strikes Smashville
FD/Omega is the only stage left
Which stage out of FD/Omega is played on for the first game of the set, and who gets to decide this?

 

[PiBs]

No, I mean for the starter.

Player A strikes BF
Player B strikes Lylat and T&C
Player A strikes Smashville
FD/Omega is the only stage left
Which stage out of FD/Omega is played on for the first game of the set, and who gets to decide this?

The player that chooses the stage. I think they are all pretty equal and need to be tried all before just defaulting to just FD.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Nobody chooses a stage during stage strike.

You're choosing what stages aren't played. Both players equally choose what stage is selected by choosing what stages aren't played.

For counterpicks, I definitely think Omegas should be grouped with FD. But for stage strike, it doesn't really work.

 

[Overswarm]

The player that chooses the stage. I think they are all pretty equal and need to be tried all before just defaulting to just FD.

lol .

 

[Russy]

Nobody chooses a stage during stage strike.

You're choosing what stages aren't played. Both players equally choose what stage is selected by choosing what stages aren't played.

For counterpicks, I definitely think Omegas should be grouped with FD. But for stage strike, it doesn't really work.

I don't really even play smash 4 and I agree with this, Omegas should be counterpicks because of how certain characters can have an advantage from a stage having a bottom instead of walls

 

[Overswarm]

Hilt's problem isn't FD being replaced with Omega Luigi's Mansion or Omega Plains or something. The issue is that it is impossible to fairly determine the Omega stage you start on during a stage striking event because no one picks a stage, they only eliminate a down to a single stage.

 

[2-Tone]

Interested to see if you've been studying, Collin. Not to pressure you, but this is a massive undertaking for a somewhat green TO and I hope you are able to run it smoothly. Rootin' for ya. Also, @ Overswarm are you coming to this?

 

[Overswarm]

Interested to see if you've been studying, Collin. Not to pressure you, but this is a massive undertaking for a somewhat green TO and I hope you are able to run it smoothly. Rootin' for ya. Also, @ Overswarm are you coming to this?

It's always pretty difficult for me to confirm to a tournament due to my real world obligations shifting pretty constantly, no doubles makes this much harder to confirm to. $20 to enter Smash 4 in a Melee/PM tournament with essentially a "Smash 4 side event" and for some reason two bans on smash 4 (wtf?) isn't particularly appealing to my interests. I like Smash 4 and customs are on so it's something I'd like to attend, but if other obligations show up I might not.

What does Smash 4 attendance look like for this?

 

[PiBs]

It's always pretty difficult for me to confirm to a tournament due to my real world obligations shifting pretty constantly, no doubles makes this much harder to confirm to. $20 to enter Smash 4 in a Melee/PM tournament with essentially a "Smash 4 side event" and for some reason two bans on smash 4 (wtf?) isn't particularly appealing to my interests. I like Smash 4 and customs are on so it's something I'd like to attend, but if other obligations show up I might not.

What does Smash 4 attendance look like for this?

Why do you always think Smash 4 at my tournaments at a side event? It is definitely a main event and I expect the turnout to be more than or equal to melee.

 

[Overswarm]

Why do you always think Smash 4 at my tournaments at a side event? It is definitely a main event and I expect the turnout to be more than or equal to melee.

Because your primary entrants are Melee players, who get two games. The traditional Smash 4 entrants don't have your tournaments on your radar because when they see "Melee + PM!" they know Smash 4 is playing second fiddle.

 

[Katakiri]

Because your primary entrants are Melee players, who get two games. The traditional Smash 4 entrants don't have your tournaments on your radar because when they see "Melee + PM!" they know Smash 4 is playing second fiddle.

Who? How? What are you on?

Maybe you should actually get a frame of reference and come to one (any) of the Smash 4 CSR/CSF events before you make that assumption. I wouldn't speak for other Smash 4 players if I were you because it's really only your house and Kel that doesn't come to these events. Even Louisville makes the drive up consistently, and good on them. I think it really is just you that can see 10 less players than Melee and go "Smash 4 must be a side event" when we had over 30 people entered in Smash 4 singles for a bi-weekly.
That is some good Hohokum you're smoking, friend.

 

[Russy]

Who? How? What are you on?

Maybe you should actually get a frame of reference and come to one (any) of the Smash 4 CSR/CSF events before you make that assumption. I wouldn't speak for other Smash 4 players if I were you because it's really only your house and Kel that doesn't come to these events. Even Louisville makes the drive up consistently, and good on them. I think it really is just you that can see 10 less players than Melee and go "Smash 4 must be a side event" when we had over 30 people entered in Smash 4 singles for a bi-weekly.
That is some good Hohokum you're smoking, friend.

To be honest, I think OS might just be sour because
He thinks melee shouldn't still be alive and as strong as
Everyone knows that it is.

Guys like him just tend to get on people's nerves
And to be quite frank,
Most people are getting sick of it.
End of my little rant...now read the first letter of each line

 

[Overswarm]

Who? How? What are you on?

Maybe you should actually get a frame of reference and come to one (any) of the Smash 4 CSR/CSF events before you make that assumption. I wouldn't speak for other Smash 4 players if I were you because it's really only your house and Kel that doesn't come to these events. Even Louisville makes the drive up consistently, and good on them. I think it really is just you that can see 10 less players than Melee and go "Smash 4 must be a side event" when we had over 30 people entered in Smash 4 singles for a bi-weekly.
That is some good Hohokum you're smoking, friend.

I keep spreadsheets of the attendance to CSR events and the local events around it, the last one had 18 Smash 4 entrants out of the 40, the rest were Melee/PM. The last event ran 2 stock because there weren't enough setups. It's a good number of entrants and it's good extra money for Smash 4 players if that's what they're interested in, but I'm just more interested in having good tournament experiences.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'm actually with OS on this one. I'm still coming up because there's a lot of interest in going to a Smash 4 tournament down here in Louisville, but the $10 venue fee is what would be turning me away as a Smash 4 player. I understand that it goes towards the arcade, and that's understandable. However, having to pay $20 for a singles event is not very appealing. I much prefer events that are more focused.

 

[Juushichi]

Very understandable.

This is honestly the dilemma I come to when I look at +PM events (as much as I liked the latest installation of BH, I can't shirk the ****ty feeling it gives me). I was going to come down partially because of the Arcade and mostly because I know PM is going to be treated as it should.

It does suck having to choose between:
- See homies.
- Play and compete in x (not just PM, but also sometimes FGC things).
- Go to large, fantastic (ideally) tournaments.

But if you have to, you really do have to chose what makes the most sense.

It gets even more hectic when there's ruleset differences that legitimately change how you have to play.

That being said, I'm glad that I get to pick two or all three of the above this time. One of the ****ty things about primarily playing PM is that I don't get to see the people I came up playing Brawl with at events much anymore. Especially IN and KY homies. T_T

 

[2-Tone]

Yo, Collin, now that it's a new year and a new start for CSR/CSF whatever, you should maybe start thinking about rotating games every biweekly. At least dropping it to two games. I'm not speaking out of bias but, judging by past attendance, Melee is the most popular game at these events. So maybe always have Melee and then rotate the second game (Melee+Pm one week,, Melee+Sm4sh next week, etc.). Or if you think you can maintain attendance numbers no matter the game, focusing on a single game every biweekly would be optimal. You could work in conjunction with Fight Nights by running the opposite game when they run one (they run Melee, you run Sm4sh/PM and vice-versa), that way people still have another event to play what they prefer that week. But I'll just shut up and let you do your thing.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I think 2-Tone has the right idea.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

whats a venue? tourny noob here

 

[PiBs]

whats a venue? tourny noob here

The place the tournament is held at.

 

[Freky]

We in here.

 

[PiBs]

If you think the $10 venue fee is too much, bring in a full setup (if it gets used) to have your venue fee be reduced to $5.

 

[Azekahh]

I'm bringing myself and about 3-4 other guys from Columbus, IN.
Pretty hyped for this, gonna be the biggest tourney I've been to yet!

 

[Kel]

I wouldn't speak for other Smash 4 players if I were you because it's really only your house and Kel that doesn't come to these events.

My reasons for not caring about this event:
-No doubles.
-Last tournament was changed to 2 stock mid tournament
-Last tournament Colin didn't wake up in time for his tournament
-Colin has repeatedly decided around 7 PM that he has better things to do than run a tournament and then pawns the responsibility off onto anyone he can (usually Dr. X)
-I feel the Smash 4 community has gone full ****** when it comes to rules. 2 stock with no customs is ass. Note: this is not a reflection of this specific tournament, just that we will be pressured by people like Mr Eric who think we should conform to bad rules from other regions. I cannot take the game seriously at 2 stocks as it decreases the win rate of better players in favor for quicker 1 game matches.
-Poker is way more profitable for me than Smash. I love smash and I love Smash 4, but with the above negatives in conjunction it doesn't make sense for me to sacrifice poker time for smash time.

Have fun, kids.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

On a lighter note, we'll be bringing two car groups from Louisville! Still not sure how many are confirmed for the second group, but seven are coming up for sure from down here.

 

[PiBs]

On a lighter note, we'll be bringing two car groups from Louisville! Still not sure how many are confirmed for the second group, but seven are coming up for sure from down here.

Awesome, hope for some rad competition.

 

[Mister Eric]

-I feel the Smash 4 community has gone full ****** when it comes to rules. 2 stock with no customs is ***. Note: this is not a reflection of this specific tournament, just that we will be pressured by people like Mr Eric who think we should conform to bad rules from other regions. I cannot take the game seriously at 2 stocks as it decreases the win rate of better players in favor for quicker 1 game matches.

Mister*

I have a preference. I don't push it on people. I express it here and there. I don't call ppl scrubs for it.
I just want a standard, ultimately. And that takes time. Even more time in the MW it seems.
If people actually feel pressured by me, I won't speak another word of it. Because those were never my intentions.
I'm sorry that things aren't your way. They aren't mine either. But so what? I love the game and the community regardless. That will never change.
I like 3 stocks too lol

I love you and OS, but I don't get either of you sometime. I get we have differences, but I don't get your approach at facing those differences. Hinting that ppl are scrubby isn't healthy. People have their ways.

One time in 2009 we held a tourney in Morehead, and we were just getting our feet wet with TO'ing. OS enters the thread and says:
"Scrub tourney, not bringing Cincy"
That actually hurt and I never forgot it.
O, and he still brought Cincy.

My main goal is to compete and be around an awesome community. That's most important to me. I love the community and I love competing. If I actually am pressuring people, then speak up, and I promise to start. I love you all.

 

[Kel]

I didn't call anyone a scrub. Katakiri grouped me together with OS' posts. I defended my reasoning as different than his because Colin seems to not care about his tournaments and I am discouraged because other regions want 2 stocks in Smash 4. I think most people would agree that these are not good things.

My approach at facings these problems is to say them out loud and in threads in order to start discussion; which hopefully leads to logical conclusions. Typically the discussions end in "then don't go lol. Colin is the TO so he gets what he wants". So I BTFO and let him do what he wants. I also don't go to the tournaments. I don't support Apex for the same reasons.

I really do hope you guys have fun and Colin runs a great tournament.

 

[Mister Eric]

I didn't call anyone a scrub. Katakiri grouped me together with OS' posts. I defended my reasoning as different than his because Colin seems to not care about his tournaments and I am discouraged because other regions want 2 stocks in Smash 4. I think most people would agree that these are not good things.

My approach at facings these problems is to say them out loud and in threads in order to start discussion; which hopefully leads to logical conclusions. Typically the discussions end in "then don't go lol. Colin is the TO so he gets what he wants". So I BTFO and let him do what he wants. I also don't go to the tournaments. I don't support Apex for the same reasons.

I really do hope you guys have fun and Colin runs a great tournament.

No you didn't, dude. I kind of combine yours and OS' brain together since you both seem to be on the same page a lot. I do feel like OS tosses the word around a bit more than he should. So when you call rulesets bad (which sometimes they are imo), I jumped the gun as an insult. I'm sorry about that.

There is no definitive right way to run these tournaments and that's what makes it hard. In the end it's all subjective.

But yeah, the focus is the last sentence you said above.

 

[AufWiedersehen]

I seriously think I'll make the drive to Cincy, always wanted to check out Arcade Legacy.

I'm a bit of a Smash tournament noob; are tournaments like these typically Bring Your Own Controller? I have a Wii U controller I can bring for Smash 4 but no GC controller for Melee or Project M...