• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
I've noticed the DI thing. >_>

I don't use it enough. I just never think of it. =S

The decay won't be much, you can fix it by using any other attack. You'll probably fix it throughout with Bair almost immedietly. I think its a good way to start with twenty-some percent.
 

infernovia

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 13, 2008
Messages
675
Guys, how do you deal with Wario? Ivysaur usually has a really nice anti-air game, but wario approaches diagonally and I just can't seem to prevent it (except the usual shield). Is Bair my only option?

Edit: PopeOfChilliTown, I wish you had some capturing equipment so I can see your PT in action.
 

Pichu Sensei

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
156
Guys, how do you deal with Wario? Ivysaur usually has a really nice anti-air game, but wario approaches diagonally and I just can't seem to prevent it (except the usual shield). Is Bair my only option?

Edit: PopeOfChilliTown, I wish you had some capturing equipment so I can see your PT in action.
Wario... I'm not sure Ivy is a good match against Wario, Charizard is a way better match up imo because of his quick strong attacks, and overall would just **** a wario.
If you have to play against wario as ivy, I'd suggest keeping your distance, yet keeping in contact. So start by using 1-2 razor leafs and close the distance, so you can start using your Bairs. You want to set up a couple Utilts, then Nair, and use a bullet seed. After that, you use razor leaf, and other moves to set up for an explosion move.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
Wario is a matchup where you really have to buckle down and commit yourself to bair spam. Wario's poor range on his aerials means the vines stifle him heavily. He also doesn't have projectiles, so use full jumped razor leafs to control areas both in the air and on the ground, but watch out for Wario air dodges, since his mobility enables him to use them effectively closing gaps. On the ground, Wario has very little to get past ftilt, other than his super armored fsmash. In my experience, Ivysaur's reach is very difficult for Wario, who apart from not having half the reach she does, doesn't have the priority on his attacks to cut through defenses. Remembering that Wario can't auto-sweetspot the ledge with his recovery is important, since if you see the opponent is trying to manually sweetspot, you can go for a quick edgehog, which Ivy is good at. If the overshoot the ledge, use dtilt or fsmash to get them off. Another good thing to watch out for is when they recover high with the bike, you can easily position yourself for a sweetspotted vine whip once they do their initial dismount, which has some frames in which Wario cannot air dodge.

Now that we're on the topic of committing to bair spam, it's really essential in order to play Ivysaur that you never shy away from spamming bair if it is working. However, bair spam works less effectively on some specifiv characters with quick, high priority counters fast enough to get to you between bairs (Snakes, for instance will dash attack cancel out of their shield if you miss a step, or they can ftilt if you mess up your zoning by even a bit). Because of this, it's important to practice your bair spam so that you reduce the time between bairs to a minimum (always start it up as soon as you SH and always fast fall), and learn to watch the opponent for signs of their next move, to decide when to keep spamming the move, when to turn around and grab or ftilt, or when to retreat.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
I think Pope pretty much covered it, I just played a competent Wario for the first time yesterday. And uh, I just kept using Bair. =P

By the way, if they try to close space with the bike from afar Razor Leaf, but if its close just use Ftilt. Once he's off his bike, defend it with your life. Wario's recovery is horrible without his bike, so if you can keep him off of it, then you should be able to kill him considerably faster than normal.
 

Pichu Sensei

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
156
K, might as well move this along...

How do you beat an olimar with Ivy? I'd imagine that you'd use his ftilt you could shake the pikmin off, but even with bair, it's almost impossible to get inside to start combos.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
K, might as well move this along...

How do you beat an olimar with Ivy? I'd imagine that you'd use his ftilt you could shake the pikmin off, but even with bair, it's almost impossible to get inside to start combos.
Just Razor Leaf the Pikmin, if he spams them quickly then one Leaf will probably kill several Pikmin. Otherwise, I would suggest Bair to get in. Its pretty neutral, since Olimar also has good spacing and range. Watch the grab, most of all. And Red Pikmin.

Not really complete. I'll look for a good Olimar to refresh my memory.
 

Gedennnnn

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
373
Location
Glendale, AZ
Olimar is really hard to approach but just getting close to the edge to throw him off then chasing him off with a few bairs and tethering the edge befor him works well for me
 

Rozar

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
17
Location
Philadelphia
I discovered this nice little 2-hit combo with ivy and i havent seen it anywhere so ill assume that i am the creator. it consists of grabbing and hitting them as much as u are able to then downthrowing and immeaditly up b-ing from the ground. it should always hit them until about 80% (where they fly to far away and Up b wont make contact) but i still have to test it on all characters. i find its a great way to create space which ivy is extremly dependent on.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
Actually, the reason it seems to work for you is because you are doing it on training mode dummies. Even minor DI makes the vine whip miss, so this is really not as dependable as it may seem.
 

chubas

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
142
Location
Mexico
But works as a psycological combo. They DI up to Ivysaur, they expose to a Utilt or a Bullet seed (or the impossible to hit but most satisfying Usmash). They DI sideways, still a little difficult but SH'ing or even giving a little step can make up-B to connect.
Not a reliable combo as you said, but the only safe DI they can get is far, far away from Ivysaur, and it's funny when you can outpredict people.
 

PkTrainerCris

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
762
Location
colombia
My ivysaur has a lot of experience fighting good olimars, ftilt is always usefull, as the long range of the jabs, dtilt works great too, and razor leaf is a very important move to you in this matchup, fsmash has the range to go thorught any pikmin and hit hard to olimar, for aerials, SH fairs work great, uair ia good for killing olimar but i wouldnt use it very often, dair is a good surprise move, an vine whip's sweetspot helps you a lot in this matchup
 

The_Court_Jester

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
62
Location
In my ego.
First, on recovery, razor leaf moves you a bit backwards in the air, so spam backwards RLs when you're recovering to get some distance. Not much, but whatever works.

And usually I approach with SH Bairs... Yeah, I'm not creative. I like to do a Dash attack sometimes, though. It's not bad. I like dashdancing.
 

Jeepy Sol

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
798
Location
Northern California
Is there ever a reason to use Jab A?

I ask this becuase I find that d-tilt is much better in most aspects. It's certainly much quicker, and more spammable. For example, after a sh n-air, I always d-tilt, and it hits them most of the time.

Also, on the topic of approaching, I use b-air, usually followed by another b-air or a f-tilt.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
Ivysaur's approach game is simple yet far superior to many characters'.

Razor leaf, bair, and ftilt. These are Ivysaur's best moves, ftilt being the best overall. Mastering these means Ivysaur is one of the peskiest characters in this game.

Did I mention ftilt is amazing?

Fast start-up, little lag, long duration, shield stab, multi-hit, great damage, great range. It is quite simply one of the best pressure tools in this game, and frankly my favorite attack in it.

Anyone else wish bair did just a teensy bit more damage and and shieldhitstun? It would easily make Ivysaur ridiculously powerful.

EDIT: About the jabs, I rarely ever use them. The only times I do is when I miss a chance for a good punish and have no better ideas on how to at least rack up some %. It's an ok jab, as far as the continuous type of jab goes, but that's not saying much. It has considerable ending lag and rarely ever leads to anything. I prefer the tilts.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
Anyone else wish bair did just a teensy bit more damage and and shieldhitstun? It would easily make Ivysaur ridiculously powerful.
Agreed.

I'll also agree with all of your approach options right there. However, you didn't really mention AC'd Fair. Is there a reason for that? I wouldn't suggest using it as your approach often (Or the ammount you would use Bair), but if you save it Ftilt can potentially kill as an approaching option. It provides a nice power not-existant in the rest of Ivysaur's moves. And, like Bair, can easily lead into Ftilt if your opponent shields it.
 

Hydde

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Messages
1,829
Location
Panama(Central america)
NNID
Rahrthur
The only bad thing about ftilt is that if the enemy knows that ull use it and roll right away behind or into you..... the lag will be enough to give them a free hit.
So dont spam it if u notice u are getting predictable with it.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
Agreed.

I'll also agree with all of your approach options right there. However, you didn't really mention AC'd Fair. Is there a reason for that? I wouldn't suggest using it as your approach often (Or the ammount you would use Bair), but if you save it Ftilt can potentially kill as an approaching option. It provides a nice power not-existant in the rest of Ivysaur's moves. And, like Bair, can easily lead into Ftilt if your opponent shields it.
Well, the reason is that, since to autocancel fair you must use it pretty much as soon as you leave the ground, it means you're very vulnerable to out of shield counters in that window of time between the hitbox disappearing and landing. Even spaced as well as possible, you're still open for things like Snake ftilts or long range grabs.

It's safer on some characters than on others, and I do use it often, just not as an approach, per se. I prefer to use it on opponents with worn out shields, hoping either for shield stab or for them to jump out of their shield in a hurry and right into fair. Again, fair is another attack I wish was a bit different: in this case, I'd like even longer range to justify the lag, and I'd want the trajectory of the knockback to be at an angle similar to Sheik's fair. No use complaining about this though.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
Right. I don't really know what to qualify it, it's not convenient enough to use it all of the time, but you could for a second become aggresive with Ivysaur and get a kill with it.
 

Jeepy Sol

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
798
Location
Northern California
The only bad thing about ftilt is that if the enemy knows that ull use it and roll right away behind or into you..... the lag will be enough to give them a free hit.
So dont spam it if u notice u are getting predictable with it.
That, and if not spaced correctly, your attack will go right through them, and you will be punished.


I sometimes use f-air out of a ledge hop. As in DI backwards off a ledge, jump backwards, and f-air. F-air's starting lag really keeps it from being an excellent move. It's range is not THAT bad, so I mainly use it as a spacing tool.
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
I was having some matches today, and I found a good way to use fair.

Against taller opponents, you can full jump fair and position yourself so that the tip of the vines hit at their lowest point. If blocked, you are too high and (if you spaced correctly) too far for counter attacks against most characters, so you can choose your next move accordingly (you can bait a grab or an out of shield attack and use bullet seed, you can fall with nair and DI behind the opponent, crossing them up, etc.). It worked wonders today against a Snake I played, I only got punished for it once, when I messed up my spacing and got a utilt to the face. If you hit, you can double jump and follow up depending on the %, since fair knocks upwards.
 

PkTrainerCris

Smash Ace
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
762
Location
colombia
Yeah fair is very good if well spaced, normally i jump, DI backwards and fair, it almost always hits my oponent if he tried to chase me, if he doesnt, then i just DI backwards less and after the peak of the jump, but i prefer to save it for kills, because its knockback is really amazing,not the best, but its surprising for its range.Also , for the jab issue, i spam it XD. I know its laggy and punishable, but if i get an oponent with the first hit, then i star pushing a like crazy, and they get caught ther for a while, builiding some damge, and when they come out, they far enough to stop jabbong and shielding immediatly so i dont get punished most of times
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
The one thing I see in videos all of the time is dash attacks. I don't know why, especially considering Ivy's dash is rather laggy and leaves you open if you totally miff it. Add to the fact that it becomes amazingly predictable and shield grabbed, and I think people abuse it. It's nice if you use it sparingly, especially since Ivy's cool down for the dash is so long. You can often trick your opponent into attacking you and then still get a dash attack out. It's a good launching tool, but definately not a main stream move for Ivysaur.

/Non-spam bump post
 

Superhacker75mil

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
113
Location
Middletown, NJ
I was having some matches today, and I found a good way to use fair.

Against taller opponents, you can full jump fair and position yourself so that the tip of the vines hit at their lowest point. If blocked, you are too high and (if you spaced correctly) too far for counter attacks against most characters, so you can choose your next move accordingly (you can bait a grab or an out of shield attack and use bullet seed, you can fall with nair and DI behind the opponent, crossing them up, etc.). It worked wonders today against a Snake I played, I only got punished for it once, when I messed up my spacing and got a utilt to the face. If you hit, you can double jump and follow up depending on the %, since fair knocks upwards.
Yeah, I've always noticed that the very bottom swing of the vines can be useful on the taller characters, or basically anyone where you time your attack carefully enough, but I'm really surprised that you didn't eat more than one Snake up-tilt. Isn't the range/priority supposed to be insane on that thing? Granted, Ivy's vines are dj-hitboxes. Y'know, against Snakes prone to spamming the move, you could always lure it out and time your attack to hit the leg of the tilt. That'd probably be effective and a good way to stop them from spamming what's otherwise an amazing move.
 

Retro Gaming

Black and White Thinking
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
1,088
Location
Iowa City, IA
Yeah, I've always noticed that the very bottom swing of the vines can be useful on the taller characters, or basically anyone where you time your attack carefully enough, but I'm really surprised that you didn't eat more than one Snake up-tilt. Isn't the range/priority supposed to be insane on that thing? Granted, Ivy's vines are dj-hitboxes. Y'know, against Snakes prone to spamming the move, you could always lure it out and time your attack to hit the leg of the tilt. That'd probably be effective and a good way to stop them from spamming what's otherwise an amazing move.
But as far as I remember, Snake also has disjointed hit-boxes on his tilts. :dizzy:
 

PopeOfChiliTown

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
520
Location
Isabela, PR
Yeah, I've always noticed that the very bottom swing of the vines can be useful on the taller characters, or basically anyone where you time your attack carefully enough, but I'm really surprised that you didn't eat more than one Snake up-tilt. Isn't the range/priority supposed to be insane on that thing? Granted, Ivy's vines are dj-hitboxes. Y'know, against Snakes prone to spamming the move, you could always lure it out and time your attack to hit the leg of the tilt. That'd probably be effective and a good way to stop them from spamming what's otherwise an amazing move.
v
Er.. yeah, I did mean utilt, not ftilt. I do get some of those in the face whenever I start to form a pattern. Even some of the better Snakes so far are trigger happy with utilt, so luring it out is not that hard an endeavor.

In any case, Snake is ridiculous. You need to play perfectly against him, because most of his punishes are extremely easy to land (as in, Snake players barely need to exert any effort to punish the tiniest mistakes). Ivysaur is better equipped for the match than about two thirds of the cast in my view, so we can at least be thankful for that. We can also be thankful that some bona fide Snake counters are being developed (Pikachu and DK, namely).
 

Onxy

Smash Lord
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
1,568
I don't think Dair can do something like Uair can, but It has a mean hitbox all alone though.
 
Top Bottom