Items= not competitive (Not a trolling topic)

[Blazer]

My friend claims it takes more skill to use items than it does to play without, and claims that since items are part of the game they're automatically fair.

I've given him countless scenarios of bombs randomly killing you, unlucky item drops and the like, and he refuses to listen to any reasoning, can I get some suggestions on how to deal with him?

Notice: I'm not telling you people not to play with items, just saying they require luck to some degree, and aren't fair because of it.

 

[cdilink]

Not everyone wants to be competitive.

 

[Blazer]

It's not that, it's that he claims they are in fact competitive. He thinks it takes more skill to hope you don't get bombed than it does to not have them involved at all.

 

[raydinneed]

Yeah, matches when you are 3-1 and then a bomb appears in your last KO-hit and you get KO'd

Then he dodges a pair of your attacks and a smart bomb appears in front of you, while you were fastfalling the **** out of him (of course he dodges) and then another bomb gets you and you get KO'd

A FS ball appears, you're dead, he gets FS, he's marth... you try to dodge but oh well, you tripped


good game?

 

[Cookiez]

Then use the search function and direct him to the bazillion posts arguing the same thing as you are . Seriously, there are thousands ^^.

Also, if he's not listening to reason, then logical thing to do would be to molest him with some sort of heavy circular object.

 

[Dan_X]

Hey man I know (and feel) your pain. My advice is this, don't play with him. Unless you don't want to take it seriously in any sense of the word. What I mean is, you're fighting an up-hill battle as your attempts to prove reality to him fall on deaf ears. Checkout this thread--- it encapsulates your thread entirely.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156732

Hope that helps :D

 

[SFJake]

Yeah, matches when you are 3-1 and then a bomb appears in your last KO-hit and you get KO'd

Then he dodges a pair of your attacks and a smart bomb appears in front of you, while you were fastfalling the **** out of him (of course he dodges) and then another bomb gets you and you get KO'd

A FS ball appears, you're dead, he gets FS, he's marth... you try to dodge but oh well, you tripped


good game?

That was hilarious. And it would be fun, I mean everyone in the room would laugh about it....

..but its obviously not competitive.

If your friend can't simply understand that...

 

[Killer-Spades]

just kick him in the balls when he's not payin attention, or turn the system off on 'accident'...oh, wait...nevermind

 

[ctrlaltdestroy]

well

i have to say i wasnt properly represented here
i didnt say that items were competitve
i said that in some scenarios winning with items can require more skill than with not
say your falling, trying to recover, and a random bomb pops up and the other person hurls it at you.
would it take more skill to dodge it while it flies at you and then grab the cliff, climb up, and pwn them, or not even having items in the first place and you just grab the cliff?
he dumbed down my argument and changed it to the point i dont even feel like trying to argue it with him.

 

[Ganny]

The idea behind tournament rules is that it is a test of skill with NO outside interference with the stage or items.

It is a man to man test of skills which the better person wins, not be some fluke of a random item dropping, but by mastering his character's skills over the other person's mastery.​

 

[ctrlaltdestroy]

That was hilarious. And it would be fun, I mean everyone in the room would laugh about it....

..but its obviously not competitive.

If your friend can't simply understand that...

and another point is i dont play competitivly
i play for the fun of it
even if i die as long as i enjoyed myself thats all that matters
i was playing, and through a twist of fate i ended up with 3 gooey bombs attached to my face
which detonated and i died a horrible death
i lost the match, but that was truely fun to me
thats one of my most memorable matches to date
even though i lost, i enjoyed it more than if i had just won the match

 

[ctrlaltdestroy]

The idea behind tournament rules is that it is a test of skill with NO outside interference with the stage or items.

It is a man to man test of skills which the better person wins, not be some fluke of a random item dropping, but by mastering his character's skills over the other person's mastery.​

well the fact of the matter is if you want a true match that has no outside interference, then you play final destination, no items, and both play as the same character, in an empty room with nothing to distract you

that idea doesnt sound fun to me
and like i said, i play for fun not competition

 

[Best101]

i have to say i wasnt properly represented here
i didnt say that items were competitve
i said that in some scenarios winning with items can require more skill than with not
say your falling, trying to recover, and a random bomb pops up and the other person hurls it at you.
would it take more skill to dodge it while it flies at you and then grab the cliff, climb up, and pwn them, or not even having items in the first place and you just grab the cliff?
he dumbed down my argument and changed it to the point i dont even feel like trying to argue it with him.

The opponent that threw the bomb had an unnecessary advantage, and now the recovering opponent has something to worry that he shouldn't have to worry if the items weren't on in the first place.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ohh, ohh, while we're linking to threads, why don't we link to this one: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012 This one illustrates the answer to this thread exactly.

 

[Dime]

Smashboards has a different definition for competitive which I do not understand. Any game or activity that has a winner and a loser is competitive. Playing with items can be competitive and it does take skill. They may give an advantage to certain characters, so whether or not they are fair is up to you to decide. A random element does not negate competition. Look at poker for example; there is a great deal of luck involved, but it still requires much skill to succeed and it is played at a professional level.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Items aren't banned because they're not competitive or they don't take skill to use, knowing how to properly use items and their unique traits and throwing trajectories to their full potential adds an element of skill to the game, however this is simply outweighed by how over-powered some items are and the random elements they bring by being introduced.

In summation, you're both wrong. You, for thinking that Items take no skill to use and that's why their banned, which is not the case, and him for thinking that because they can take skill to use that means that they're balanced or fair, which is equally wrong.

 

[EmperorCesar]

My friend claims it takes more skill to use items than it does to play without, and claims that since items are part of the game they're automatically fair.

I've given him countless scenarios of bombs randomly killing you, unlucky item drops and the like, and he refuses to listen to any reasoning, can I get some suggestions on how to deal with him?

Notice: I'm not telling you people not to play with items, just saying they require luck to some degree, and aren't fair because of it.

Why do you care? Let scrubs be scrubs.

 

[Captain Stupid]

Smashboards has a different definition for competitive which I do not understand. Any game or activity that has a winner and a loser is competitive. Playing with items can be competitive and it does take skill. They may give an advantage to certain characters, so whether or not they are fair is up to you to decide. A random element does not negate competition. Look at poker for example; there is a great deal of luck involved, but it still requires much skill to succeed and it is played at a professional level.

So your saying, if lets say me and you were playing, with items, and you are just kicking my ***, you have 3 stocks and i have 1. I find this bomb throw it at you and you die. Now you have 2 stocks, then i grab a pokeball and get Kyogre and you dont air dodge in time and he pushes you of the stage and die. Now both of us have 1 stock and now there is a smash ball, we both hit it a couple times but i get it and im marth and you get hit by me and lose, you would be ok with that?
Would you say im a better player cause i beat you when you were clearly dominating me but i got 3 lucky items. LUCKY items. Being able to grab items faster than an opponent shows no skill at playing this game.
just my opinion

 

[raydinneed]

So your saying, if lets say me and you were playing, with items, and you are just kicking my ***, you have 3 stocks and i have 1. I find this bomb throw it at you and you die. Now you have 2 stocks, then i grab a pokeball and get Kyogre and you dont air dodge in time and he pushes you of the stage and die. Now both of us have 1 stock and now there is a smash ball, we both hit it a couple times but i get it and im marth and you get hit by me and lose, you would be ok with that?
Would you say im a better player cause i beat you when you were clearly dominating me but i got 3 lucky items. LUCKY items. Being able to grab items faster than an opponent shows no skill at playing this game.
just my opinion

mine was better


also true story

 

[rajendra82]

Being able to grab items faster than an opponent shows no skill at playing this game.
just my opinion

To grab an item you have to (i) see it appear on screen, (ii) react to its presence by moving towards it while avoiding your opponent and his attacks, (iii) be able to get there before he does, (iv) be able to grab the item before being punished for being in that spot, and (v) put yourself in a position to use the item effectively. All of these actions are part of playing the game and show more skill and thinking than the time you spent at the keyboard to come up with this crazy claim.

 

[Dime]

So your saying, if lets say me and you were playing, with items, and you are just kicking my ***, you have 3 stocks and i have 1. I find this bomb throw it at you and you die. Now you have 2 stocks, then i grab a pokeball and get Kyogre and you dont air dodge in time and he pushes you of the stage and die. Now both of us have 1 stock and now there is a smash ball, we both hit it a couple times but i get it and im marth and you get hit by me and lose, you would be ok with that?
Would you say im a better player cause i beat you when you were clearly dominating me but i got 3 lucky items. LUCKY items. Being able to grab items faster than an opponent shows no skill at playing this game.
just my opinion

If I don’t air-dodge in time that’s my fault and it shows my lack of skill.

But that’s not really the point. What you described was still a competitive match. It just might not have been fair if you had a faster character and was better able to pick up items. I am making a distinction between competitive and fairness. They are not the same thing. I don’t often use items, but I am disputing how many people think items cannot be competitive and does not require any skill. I also disagree with the idea that an added random element automatically makes something non-competitive.

 

[Cookiez]

@ rajendra92, what if the item is way closer to you than it is to your opponent? Make's it as easy as pie to pick up.

There's no skill in having an item randomly appear in such a position that it is much easier for your to utilize than your foe, and then proceed to have a massive advantage over him with it.

 

[raydinneed]

To grab an item you have to (i) see it appear on screen, (ii) react to its presence by moving towards it while avoiding your opponent and his attacks, (iii) be able to get there before he does, (iv) be able to grab the item before being punished for being in that spot, and (v) put yourself in a position to use the item effectively. All of these actions are part of playing the game and show more skill and thinking than the time you spent at the keyboard to come up with this crazy claim.

items would lead to item-throwing-camping, that + random bombs on your head... we all know its good

 

[rajendra82]

items would lead to item-throwing-camping, that + random bombs on your head... we all know its good

Why would items lead to camping? If you camp in one place, there is no guarantee the item will appear next to you. Items will lead to a more incentive for movement, not less. Especially an item like Dragoon where you will have to move around to get all three parts, or the Smash Ball, where you would get nothing by just camping around. And random bombs on your head are just as likely as random bombs on your opoonent's head.

 

[itsameSMB]

I would not say that items take more skill to use, but they do to use correctly. True, there is a random factor when it comes to items, which may level the playing field to an extent, but that does not mean items are all luck (and I knowyou are not saying that). I don't like putting items like bob-ombs and golden hammers on, since almost no strategy can be but into them. That's why we have a wonderful thing called the item switch. You can turn off the cheap items that have no down side to them and leave the ones that can be strategically used on. You can plant as many motion-sensor bombs as you'd like, but you'll be the one paying for it if you plant them in the wrong spot. Putting pitfalls on go-through platforms that are just above a hazard is a bit more difficult to do that chucking it at an opponent, but much more rewarding. Heck, even most power-ups can be used against someone (metal + meteor smash or footstool jump not over ground = guaranteed KO)! Also, remember that most items outside of battering and power-up items leave the user wide open to attack after use, presenting a golden opportunity to a seasoned smasher.
In my opinion, smash is (sort of) like a speedy game of wits. You need to anticipate your opponents moves, excute your own moves, be aware of your surroundings, and plan your own strategy. If you were able to predict what would happen all the time, the game would be boring and nothing would change. We'd be playing the same thing over and over and eventually just quit playing. Though I detest the use of cheap items in serious matches, maybe a homerun bat to the face is the wake-up call some people need to see that item use is not entirely skill-based or luck-based. Competition's all about proving superiority, and if you let a n00b own you with a dragoon when you could of held at least one of the pieces for yourself, preventing them from getting it, you aren't really don't that. On the flipside, I do agree with you that nothing sucks more than to do amazing in a match, only to be blasted by a blast box that just appeared in front of you. But not all items are cheap.

Anyway, I'd tell your friend about how Sakurai promotes an "everybody wins" philsophy over a "winner-loser" one. Just remember, you can turn off the bombs and keep the food.