Item Legality Poll

[FalKoopa]

I don't think items should ever be turned on in a serious 1 vs 1 match. In a tourney, ideally the luck factor should be minimum, if not zero, and legalizing items just goes against this.

 

[Banjodorf]

The long and short of it, COMPLETELY OBJECTIVELY, is that items would need to be thoroughly tested, and largely reduced in usable number to function EVEN REMOTELY in a competitive scene. And even then, the number of items that aren't immediately intrusive to competitive play is so small, it may as well not be even worth considering. In addition, as long as exploding boxes (and randomly exploding boxes, and randomly exploding capsules, etc.) still exist, items should NEVER be allowed, as these things will spawn no matter WHAT items you have turned on.

Look, people can use items all they want, but they just don't belong in a purely skill-based environment. They just don't.

 

[mimgrim]

In addition, as long as exploding boxes (and randomly exploding boxes, and randomly exploding capsules, etc.) still exist, items should NEVER be allowed, as these things will spawn no matter WHAT items you have turned on.

Just to point out, Brawl has the option of turning those things off, so it stands to reason Smash 4 will to.

Not saying I agree or disagree with everything else you said, I'm rather neutral on the subject, just that, that specific sentence is true when it comes to items in Brawl and will thus probably carry on into Smash 4.

 

[Banjodorf]

You can turn off randomly exploding capsules?

Either way, to make items legal your either have to disable MOST of them, which leads to the question "Why do it if all you can have on are beam swords?"

That, and non-competitive players should not be able to dictate what competitive players do. The opposite doesn't happen, no matter what illusion has been created. (Speaking generally, not at anyone here)

 

[mimgrim]

You can turn off randomly exploding capsules?

In Brawl, yes.

 

[Johnknight1]

Again, ultimately non-competitive players who don't attend tournaments (or don't plan to for Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U) have opinions that should not, will not, and do not effect what competitive players who do attend tournaments do and use for rulesets in tournaments.

Take Poke Balls, for instance. One player could get a useless Goldeen while their opponent gets a legendary Pokemon. I've seen it happen before.

That's why items were banned in California in like 2004 or 2005. The big TO at the time had Pokéballs on, and his opponent got 2 Moltres' in a row, which caused him to lose 3 stocks!

You forget that this is for the 3DS, which will most likely never see competitive play.
I think if they showed a little worm hole of where the item is about to appear it would add an engaging King of the Hill type of control and reward the person to take control.
I think food could be an interesting twist as it doesn't heal you too much.

Also, items would be set to low appearance.

1. The 3DS scene will have a competitive community. I'll make sure of it.
2. "King of the Hill" will never be a competitive motif, other than to stay on the stage and not plummet to your death.
3. Items randomly respond, and thus, favor a lucky player based on nothing. Thus, food and all items, even on low, could decide a match, and thus, they should be banned, and thus, they will be banned by actual tournaments with the actual competitive tournament-going players.

Just to point out, Brawl has the option of turning those things off, so it stands to reason Smash 4 will to.

No it didn't. Brawl initially had that option, but Sakurai reversed his opinion on it and changed it from the demos to the actual retail release.

Randomly exploding capsules are still a thing. The only thing you can turn off are randomly exploding crates and/or barrels.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

If I recall, in Brawl, you could turn off Capsules, Crates, and Barrels, but if they were on, there'd be randomly exploding ones.

Don't even get me started on Party Balls.

 

[mimgrim]

No it didn't. Brawl initially had that option, but Sakurai reversed his opinion on it and changed it from the demos to the actual retail release.

Randomly exploding capsules are still a thing. The only thing you can turn off are randomly exploding crates and/or barrels.

Capsules don't have their own individual slot, this is true. However there is a way to have them never appear, at least they never appeared for me when I did it this way. Turn all items off and turn on the specific items you want. Capsules should fall under the "all items off" part since they don't have their own slot. They should never appear then, at least they haven't for me. I even tested going in a infinite time match against a CPU and didn't have one appear at during the whole 30 minuets I could handle.

 

[Camsterchief]

1. The 3DS scene will have a competitive community. I'll make sure of it.
2. "King of the Hill" will never be a competitive motif, other than to stay on the stage and not plummet to your death.
3. Items randomly respond, and thus, favor a lucky player based on nothing. Thus, food and all items, even on low, could decide a match, and thus, they should be banned, and thus, they will be banned by actual tournaments with the actual competitive tournament-going players.

But what if items DIDNT favor a lucky person? like, there was an obvious warning as to where the items was going to drop. Bringing action to different sides of the stage and rewarding the person to control that area.
(Just completely What If's, btw)

 

[Camsterchief]

How do you know this?

i don't, but, let's just say Smash 4 takes over Melee for tournaments. Why would we need the alternative handheld version?

Although, the 3DS does indeed have a good population to be able to have some sort of tournaments. But most of those are kids with a low skill level that arent fun to watch.
If the 3DS scene really wanted to be competitive, they would have a way to go to be able to make it.

 

[Caryslan]

Maybe not as a main event, but why not run side tournaments that do allow certain items to be used? For obvious reasons, items like Pokeballs, Assist Trophies, Dragoon Pieces, Explosives, Baseball Bats, Starman, the Mushrooms, and other items that are over powering would be banned. And of course, all recovery items would be turned off as well.

But I think it would be an interesting event to see. Suppose Ganondorf gets his hands on a Franklin Badge against a Falco? How does the Falco adjust now that his Blaster is not useful at the moment and he loses one of his best options to stop Ganondorf's approach? What about a Banana Peel appearing on stage in a match between an Ike and a Marth?

I'm not saying go wild with items, and certain ones would have to be turned off. And non-item matches would still be the standard of Tournaments, since skill matters above all else.

But an Item Tournament as a side event could be fun, and it could create a radically altered Meta Game from the main tournaments. The problem with previous item tournaments that I've seen is that they allowed every single item. Of course items will radically alter the course of a match if you allow Smash Balls, Pokeball, Assist Trophies, and Dragoon Parts.

But what if the items allowed were more skill based? How would players adapt to a new gameplay element in my match. What do you do with a Beam Sword? Do you toss it at the enemy or hold onto it?

Keep items out of main tournament matches, but I would love to see side events that do allow items.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

But what if items DIDNT favor a lucky person? like, there was an obvious warning as to where the items was going to drop. Bringing action to different sides of the stage and rewarding the person to control that area.
(Just completely What If's, btw)

Then it would benefit the fastest characters who are able to get around quickly. That means high tiers get even better because Fox, Marth, and Sheik are some of the fastest characters in the roster.

 

[Camsterchief]

Then it would benefit the fastest characters who are able to get around quickly. That means high tiers get even better because Fox, Marth, and Sheik are some of the fastest characters in the roster.

stages arent that big dude. and I dont mean a 2 second warning. I mean a legit warning that gives players the time to set up in that area and begin their duel.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

stages arent that big dude. and I dont mean a 2 second warning. I mean a legit warning that gives players the time to set up in that area and begin their duel.

Stage size doesn't matter, faster characters can get anywhere on any stage quicker. Hence why they're considered "fast".

And the way you're wording this makes me think that people will start camping for items on their sides, turning competitive Smash into a dodgeball game.

 

[Camsterchief]

Stage size doesn't matter, faster characters can get anywhere on any stage quicker.

And the way you're wording this makes me think that people will start camping for items on their sides, turning competitive Smash into a dodgeball game.

Smash Bros is not CoD. You think people are honestly going to camp for a piece of food, Mr. Saturn, or beam sword? No.

They will keep duking it out until the item appears. and if items are set to a low appearance setting then there wont even be that many items throughout a match.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Smash Bros is not CoD. You think people are honestly going to camp for a piece of food, Mr. Saturn, or beam sword? No.

They will keep duking it out until the item appears. and if items are set to a low appearance setting then there wont even be that many items throughout a match.

So if there aren't even going to be that many items in the first place, then why bother?

Also, Fox has a thing called a refector, which can turn your Poke Ball into his, as well as deflect every throwing item, every shot from a Super Scope or Ray Gun, and the stars off of a Star Rod.

Villager can also pocket any item, meaning he can hold two, most likely. So he can essentially sucker punch you by throwing the item he's pocketed instead of the one he's holding.

 

[TimeSmash]

I feel like a lot of these posts are assuming ALL items will be legal in the next Smash. I'm not saying that to be a knee-jerk supporter of ISP, but I would assume that if we had an ISP subset of tournaments, only specific items would make the cut.

I can't remember exactly, but I think the Brawl ISP thread banned explosives in general, such as Crates, Capsules, and especially Bob-ombs because of the situation lobotheduck21 described. I know Pokeballs were banned, but Assist Trophies weren't, solely for the fact you could throw a Pokeball but you had to go through the animation to activate an Assist Trophy. Personally, I think both should be banned because the chance of you getting something at the very least slightly useful or something worthless is imbalanced. not to mention you could potentially camp in a Pokémon's body like Charizard while your opponent has limited options to counter that.

Am I a competitive player? Yes. But I definitely haven't been doing it as long as many of the people on this forum, and even people on this thread. That being said, I'm not saying we should throw out itemless play, but have it as a side set of tournament nature.

 

[Camsterchief]

So if there aren't even going to be that many items in the first place, then why bother?

Also, Fox has a thing called a refector, which can turn your Poke Ball into his, as well as deflect every throwing item, every shot from a Super Scope or Ray Gun, and the stars off of a Star Rod.

the discussion is about finding viable ways to bring about items into a competitive atmosphere. Having low item's will bring a spice into gameplay without tampering too much.

That's one of the perks of your character choice. Just like how Peach can pull out Bomb-Ombs or PokeBalls, how Mario can use his cape.
You can either find a way around that characters strength, or you use your own strength to over come it. Same deal with No-items play.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I feel like a lot of these posts are assuming ALL items will be legal in the next Smash. I'm not saying that to be a knee-jerk supporter of ISP, but I would assume that if we had an ISP subset of tournaments, only specific items would make the cut.

I can't remember exactly, but I think the Brawl ISP thread banned explosives in general, such as Crates, Capsules, and especially Bob-ombs because of the situation lobotheduck21 described. I know Pokeballs were banned, but Assist Trophies weren't, solely for the fact you could throw a Pokeball but you had to go through the animation to activate an Assist Trophy. Personally, I think both should be banned because the chance of you getting something at the very least slightly useful or something worthless is imbalanced. not to mention you could potentially camp in a Pokémon's body like Charizard while your opponent has limited options to counter that.

Am I a competitive player? Yes. But I definitely haven't been doing it as long as many of the people on this forum, and even people on this thread. That being said, I'm not saying we should throw out itemless play, but have it as a side set of tournament nature.

I'm not saying we throw it out, either. A side tourney with some items on would be fine. But for an actual competitive tournament? No items.

Imagine losing the tournament in Grand Finals because of a misplaced item. You would've lost because of bad luck, not because somebody tried their hardest and outskilled you.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

the discussion is about finding viable ways to bring about items into a competitive atmosphere. Having low item's will bring a spice into gameplay without tampering too much.

That's one of the perks of your character choice. Just like how Peach can pull out Bomb-Ombs or PokeBalls, how Mario can use his cape.
You can either find a way around that characters strength, or you use your own strength to over come it. Same deal with No-items play.

Yeah, and items haven't been allowed in competitive play since around 2005. And if you want low tiers to be viable, as we have both said now, a lot of mid to high tier characters have skills like that. Meaning that the low tiers still don't have much of a chance.

For example, I've used items against Brawl Falco, and the amount of times I had things reflected at me were crazy. What about competitive play, where Fox's reflector is used much more frequently?

 

[Zekersaurus]

1. Items will never be THE competitive standard. There are tournaments that allow items but that ruleset is much less popular due to that fact that most smashers that play with items are casual players who don't take the game seriously enough to go to tournaments.

2. The banning of items has less to do with balance and more to do with the fact that it distracts from the fighting and throws the game off too much.

3. No one can force anyone to play the game a certain way. Those who don't the competitive rules don't have to abide by them.

 

[Camsterchief]

1. Items will never be THE competitive standard. There are tournaments that allow items but that ruleset is much less popular due to that fact that most smashers that play with items are casual players who don't take the game seriously enough to go to tournaments.

2. The banning of items has less to do with balance and more to do with the fact that it distracts from the fighting and throws the game off too much.

3. No one can force anyone to play the game a certain way. Those who don't the competitive rules don't have to abide by them.

But dude, this is 3DS. Do you think a handheld will ever be taken seriously?

We have two different version of Smash 4 so why not treat them as such?

 

[Camsterchief]

Yeah, and items haven't been allowed in competitive play since around 2005. And if you want low tiers to be viable, as we have both said now, a lot of mid to high tier characters have skills like that. Meaning that the low tiers still don't have much of a chance.

For example, I've used items against Brawl Falco, and the amount of times I had things reflected at me were crazy. What about competitive play, where Fox's reflector is used much more frequently?

Ugh. Look, the 3DS will never EVER be taken more seriously then any of the console versions. So why not have this?

 

[Zekersaurus]

Ugh. Look, the 3DS will never EVER be taken more seriously then any of the console versions. So why not have this?

YYYYYYYYeah... you don't know that for sure. Also, more people own the 3DS and the 3DS is more popular. The 3DS version could be just as popular if not more so than the Console version. They have tournaments for Pokemon and that's on a handheld.

 

[FlareHabanero]

But dude, this is 3DS. Do you think a handheld will ever be taken seriously?

We have two different version of Smash 4 so why not treat them as such?

Why should the 3DS version be considered the exception to the rule?

It follows the rules of a Super Smash Bros. game like everyone other installment, and your only excuse is that it's on a handheld? That's a sorry excuse to make up exceptions.

 

[Camsterchief]

Why should the 3DS version be considered the exception to the rule?

It follows the rules of a Super Smash Bros. game like everyone other installment, and your only excuse is that it's on a handheld? That's a sorry excuse to make up exceptions.

But all were doing is cloning?
If we have two games that play exactly the same what's the point?
My excuse is not that it's the handheld, but it will be the same exact thing. Literally same gameplay, same characters, except different, probably more gimmicky, stages. We all know that 3ds wont be the game to be EVOs main game, or on the MLG main stage. So why not treat it as something that could boost the smash community and use it as the stepping stone for new comers, and kids who are new to competitive gaming?

 

[Camsterchief]

YYYYYYYYeah... you don't know that for sure. Also, more people own the 3DS and the 3DS is more popular. The 3DS version could be just as popular if not more so than the Console version. They have tournaments for Pokemon and that's on a handheld.

I do know that for sure. Name ONE handheld game that has been in a popular tournament setting like CoD, Street Fighter, Melee, Halo, LoL, etc.. Pokemon has a ton of tournaments, yes, but never anything on that sort of caliber. you seriously think that the 3ds version will be chosen over the console version if they have the same gameplay, same characters?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I disagree with even bothering to test anything unless there is a significant change in how items are delivered rather than what sort of item and effects it has. At the end of the day you have to decide upon the environment you want for a competitive field. From what I can tell is that many people will feel quite annoyed when they use some attack and a bom-omb randomly appears in the middle of the hitbox and explodes killing them. Yeah... you can turn off the item, but this does not change the fact that random spawns appears to be the biggest issues with items in smash.

In a singles or teams characters like peach or snake have very manageable items (most of the time for peach). They will spawn exactly when the character can do so and wants to along with they appear in the same routine manner. Snake's nades will not appear behind you when being pulled. There many items which are certainly fine. However, only if they could be placed and spawned in very regular patterns.

 

[TimeSmash]

I do know that for sure. Name ONE handheld game that has been in a popular tournament setting like CoD, Street Fighter, Melee, Halo, LoL, etc.. Pokemon has a ton of tournaments, yes, but never anything on that sort of caliber. you seriously think that the 3ds version will be chosen over the console version if they have the same gameplay, same characters?

The WiiU still costs money, and the game costs money. People who already have a 3DS don't need or even necessarily want to buy the Wii U. And who knows how big the 3DS scene will get? Who can even say it will play the same? The reason this subset of forums for SSB4 exists is representative of that.

I disagree with even bothering to test anything unless there is a significant change in how items are delivered rather than what sort of item and effects it has. At the end of the day you have to decide upon the environment you want for a competitive field. From what I can tell is that many people will feel quite annoyed when they use some attack and a bom-omb randomly appears in the middle of the hitbox and explodes killing them. Yeah... you can turn off the item, but this does not change the fact that random spawns appears to be the biggest issues with items in smash.

In a singles or teams characters like peach or snake have very manageable items (most of the time for peach). They will spawn exactly when the character can do so and wants to along with they appear in the same routine manner. Snake's nades will not appear behind you when being pulled. There many items which are certainly fine. However, only if they could be placed and spawned in very regular patterns.

I definitely agree with you that a big part of the hurdle for ISP is random spawning points. I haven't really thought of a solution to that. If it could be determined where in each stage an item would spawn (let's say 3-7 points, depending on the largeness of the stage), would players tend to linger or camp around those sites? Not to mention this solution would most likely require hacks, which a lot of people are probably not intent on doing for ISP. But Project M itself shows that hacks can make it into the competitive scene. So maybe hacking isn't out of the question.

I'm not saying we throw it out, either. A side tourney with some items on would be fine. But for an actual competitive tournament? No items.

Imagine losing the tournament in Grand Finals because of a misplaced item. You would've lost because of bad luck, not because somebody tried their hardest and outskilled you.

Referring to the side tourney, yes that's what I was thinking. I definitely feel that Smash should always have a non-item usage side.

 

[Camsterchief]

The WiiU still costs money, and the game costs money. People who already have a 3DS don't need or even necessarily want to buy the Wii U. And who knows how big the 3DS scene will get? Who can even say it will play the same? The reason this subset of forums for SSB4 exists is representative of that.

The 3DS costs money, too, dude...

So are you implying that 3DS tournaments will have a better turn out then the Wii U's? That the 3DS is likely to garner more attention due to its better sales? What goes through my mind in that, is that ONLY people with a 3DS can enter those. Youre assuming that a) the true smash competitors have a 3DS. and b) more people are interested in the handheld, which really isnt the case.

Its not like all the casual smashers are going to clamor over to competitive play. This 3DS version is viewed as a side Smash for on the go to most people.. So why dont we treat it as such and have side tournaments?

Well its a smash bros game coming out at the same time as its twin...
If it's not going to play the same then why would we treat it as such and give it the same rule set as the console version, which we are also getting

The reason behind this subset of forums is so we can socialize on an organized matter haha...its not like nintendo made the smashboards

 

[TimeSmash]

The 3DS costs money, too, dude...

So are you implying that 3DS tournaments will have a better turn out then the Wii U's? That the 3DS is likely to garner more attention due to its better sales? What goes through my mind in that, is that ONLY people with a 3DS can enter those. Youre assuming that a) the true smash competitors have a 3DS. and b) more people are interested in the handheld, which really isnt the case.

Its not like all the casual smashers are going to clamor over to competitive play. This 3DS version is viewed as a side Smash for on the go to most people.. So why dont we treat it as such and have side tournaments?

Well its a smash bros game coming out at the same time as its twin...
If it's not going to play the same then why would we treat it as such and give it the same rule set as the console version, which we are also getting

The reason behind this subset of forums is so we can socialize on an organized matter haha...its not like nintendo made the smashboards

I'm not implying anything of the sort. I'm just saying that people who already have a 3DS aren't necessarily going to get a WiiU exactly, if they have one outlet available to them already. But your view of a side 3DS tournament is interesting. We can't really say which way the scene for it will go, and side tournaments are always a good experience. I'm not saying the 3DS is going to be radically different from the WiiU version, but it's plausible that they will at the very least feel different due to them being on different systems.

 

[Johnknight1]

But what if items DIDNT favor a lucky person? like, there was an obvious warning as to where the items was going to drop. Bringing action to different sides of the stage and rewarding the person to control that area.
(Just completely What If's, btw)

If there was an obvious warning, there would be camping and zoning and stupid stalling. That would be equally as bad. In fact, it might be worse, because it would inevitably favor the better character (without items) and the fastest character (which is usually the better character).

With anything random like items, you're damned if they spawn randomly, and you're damned if they spawn in set points. Items like that only work in 3D games about point capturing or king of the hill, like multiplayer RPG's or shooters (particularly with King of the Hill Mode on). Either way you'll either end up with broken combos, worse balance, and of course lots of camping, stalling, and slowed down action. Nobody wants that in actual tournaments.

Also, there are only a few set spawn points for items in each stage. If you play with items enough you memorize them. The only Smash game I ever super got into it with items was Smash 64, and I would commonly zone and camp so I could do my easy combos and edge guarding with items there (this was before I was any good, too).

Smash Bros is not CoD. You think people are honestly going to camp for a piece of food, Mr. Saturn, or beam sword? No.

They will keep duking it out until the item appears. and if items are set to a low appearance setting then there wont even be that many items throughout a match.

I wouldn't doubt people's ability to camp or stall to win. I actually got timed out in a match I won (back when Brawl had 10 minute timeouts) in a 3 stock match because the other guy thought he stood a better chance at camping. Trust me, there's lots of people like that (and it isn't just Brawl, either). Not everyone is a crazy backyard brawler/all out aggro smasher like me, lol!

Any player who knows the power of the beam sword would camp out for one. Those things make it to where you have so much range your opponent can't even get to you. On top of that they do insane damage (more in each game I think), and they are insane as a edge guarding tool, both for melee attacks and for throwing.

Keep items out of main tournament matches, but I would love to see side events that do allow items.

This is what most of us are trying to say, and honestly, this is done to an extent with each smash game.

Heck, I'd like to see more such side tournaments in general. Teams (that should be a main event more), and mid, low, and bottom-tier (side) tournaments.

I feel like a lot of these posts are assuming ALL items will be legal in the next Smash. I'm not saying that to be a knee-jerk supporter of ISP, but I would assume that if we had an ISP subset of tournaments, only specific items would make the cut.

Regardless, most items are super overpowered, especially in Brawl. It also doesn't help it will lead to camping, stalling, and slowed down matches. I've done enough matches with people with items (including absolutely top tier players in Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl) to know that it leads to longer (and more boring) matches.

And don't even get me started on how it kills the competitive vibes, or how it creates further imbalance.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Honestly, I would love to get in on this, but I've just given up on the Smash community. There's no point to debating this any longer, because it's all debating with uninformed children. John's saying if you aren't a TO or a competitive player, you're views are meaningless. Ha. First of all, NO ONE'S views are meaningless. Second, I could claim that if you've never played an ISP event at a high level using item counterpicking, YOU'RE view is meaningless because you're not at the forefront of item play, if we're gonna go off your own logic. Last, the amount of just blatantly wrong things in this thread are astounding. Seriously, people STILL arguing that Brawl spawns items near the loser, or that proper item lists promote camping, or that properly tested items are unbalanced and overcentralizing, regardless of the MOUNTAINS of evidence to the contrary?

There's no point. I'd love to get ISP going in SSB4. Hell, I'm probably going to be the one to do it, again, because no one else will. But, I'm done debating this. The fact that people are going to ban ANYTHING in this game day one just shows me that, no matter what Sakurai or Namco does to design SSB4, the exact same thing will happen as Brawl: WE will destroy the game with poor, childish, emotional decision making. WE will kill the game before it gets a chance. SRK will probably, again, try to give us a shot at EVO like they did with Brawl, and we'll squander that, too, and it will take another 5 years before we're even close to being taken seriously.

 

[Banjodorf]

Why are people so interested in ISP in the first place? Just play the game the way you want to play it, and let other people do that too. They have item tournaments, and they have normal tournaments. What's the issue?

 

[Camsterchief]

It hurts my head. We have TWO versions of a Smash game. Yet we're trying to make them the same.

If you honestly believe that a Nintendo 3DS game will be able to carry the weight of the competitive crowd through this games life span, or even think it's possible, then I'm sorry for when you realize that's not going to happen.

We have these two games. They might feel the same, might not. But these games are being made at the same time, by the same people. You do the math.

All of you against Items On seem to be thinking that we're all going to take the 3DS to EVO, or MLG. Remember, there is a console version that we should invest in.

We have TWO different Smash games coming out so why not treat them as such?
We have TWO different Smash games that can tie in competitive and casual.

It's like when the competitive crowd tried to make Halo 4 into Halo 3.

 

[LiteralGrill]

This conversation got VERY interesting.

This 3DS version is viewed as a side Smash for on the go to most people.. So why dont we treat it as such and have side tournaments?

I will say this, the Wii U and the 3DS versions I have a feeling will have a very different market just on the fact of handheld vs console, different people will already own them/pick them up. There is an opportunity to use this to market the rules towards the kinds of people who end up picking up both consoles. Through this, we'll have the opportunity to see two different kinds of play side by side possibly, and that is a worthwhile idea to consider.

If it does turn out that the 3DS gets a lot more casual players, why not have more stages/items on to work with that market? More smashers playing, more people at events, how does it hurt? Some of those people might move to the other side of things too, or we'll have people entering both events. Relegating on to the idea of a "side" event removes all the legitimacy it can muster, and you ruin an opportunity for long term investment in the community to make us stronger. Let's face it, Brawl, Melee, and even 64 have had serious issues with numbers, massive amounts of people leaving, not as many coming back, big pushes for people all of a sudden joining again just to leave, and even sometimes a rare success where some people come and stay. Remember, the larger we are, the better chance of things big being able to happen like MLG or a return to EVO. Why make us weaker by relegating one of our tools to a side event?

Last, the amount of just blatantly wrong things in this thread are astounding. Seriously, people STILL arguing that Brawl spawns items near the loser, or that proper item lists promote camping, or that properly tested items are unbalanced and overcentralizing, regardless of the MOUNTAINS of evidence to the contrary?

The fact that people are going to ban ANYTHING in this game day one just shows me that, no matter what Sakurai or Namco does to design SSB4, the exact same thing will happen as Brawl: WE will destroy the game with poor, childish, emotional decision making. WE will kill the game before it gets a chance.

I will definitely say it is astounding that after all these years there is so much misinformation out there still We all need to go in day one ready to murder any kind of dumb rumors with evidence no matter what side you are on or we'll still have people believing untruths years down the road that'll hurt us all as players.

I can also agree that people at times allow much too much emotion to work in arguments instead of cold hard facts. It's why I wanted to make Datakae! in the first place. I understand people can twist data a bit to try and make things look good from their viewpoint, but if we just use half a lick of common sense and present numbers fairly anyone should be able to make decisions properly without emotions clouding their judgement.

And to this:

Again, ultimately non-competitive players who don't attend tournaments (or don't plan to for Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U) have opinions that should not, will not, and do not effect what competitive players who do attend tournaments do and use for rulesets in tournaments.

This is disgusting. I figured the idea of a free market in tournaments if there were a large number of people who would play in an event, we might provide it. Heck, new TOs might sprout up even. Let's alienate people who think differently then us so we can play our way instead of expanding the community and growing to have a ruleset that a majority can accept and enjoy.

Maybe you don't remember, there was once a time when people who wanted more stages and even thought about having items WERE THE MAJORITY. People just chased them out, called them idiotic, and used took away everything they had to fight with to where they no longer wanted to be a part of this community because honestly people were being bullies. People playing low tiers dropped off the face of the planet as some of their tools in stages were tossed out when some Jigglypuff player beat them on Norfair.* People saw every tool they had to fight off high tiers or just plain players with a lack of knowledge taken away when those players who didn't take the time to learn a cool counterpick cried about an unfair loss instead of manning up and getting better. Is there fairness to that?

And while we're at it, do you think people who were/are still treated like that are going to want to come to tournaments as we run them now? The problem comes from both sides. For further inquiry on that, dig deep into the bowels of the forums and you'll find a bunch of TOs talking about how tons of players left AND EVEN SAID THEY WOULD COME BACK YEARS LATER if things could change. If even half of some of those number still were playing smash today, they could account for over a 1/4 of today's players, adding a 25% boost to attendance at events, prize pools, and much more.

In short, let's not be jerks to people who think differently, let's expand our knowledge so we aren't making uninformed decisions, let's not alienate players by being misinformed jerks on top of it, and maybe we should all sit down and actually do some studying of the past to not make some mistakes we already have in the future. Otherwise, we stab ourselves in the foot before we even begin.

(That's a real story btw, it was the major reason the stage first got looked at NOT MK or Wario play, or the hazards that can actually be predicted. They saw a low tier character with superior stage knowledge whoop a high tier good player. And wanna know what else? This match that apparently made so many people think the stage should be banned HAS NO PROOF OF EXISTENCE even though it was supposedly filmed. A player with superior knowledge using a worse character beat a strong player using a strong character, so we rewarded the player with less knowledge by removing a stage so he wouldn't lose. How does that make sense?

Also, that means there is a possibility someone just blatantly lied about something to have it banned, shameful...)

 

[LiteralGrill]

Double postin...

 

[Substitution]

Here's the thing, will the 3DS version not be as big as the Wii U? Probably. But I think it's in the same way as 64, or heck even Brawl. Sure, they're not as big as Melee, but they both have a devoted fanbase. I think the same will happen here. Sure, will it be difficult? Yes. Will there be problems with loading and capturing gameplay? Of course. But it's not like we haven't seen, or even settled these issues before. If we're somehow able to make a mod featuring two characters that had to made from scratch, I think we can make it through. Now, one could say that we won't be as big. Sure, we probably won't.But I think we'll be big enough to at least deserve our own spot among the console games. Not just a side gig.

 

[SmasherP83]

Here's the thing, will the 3DS version not be as big as the Wii U? Probably. But I think it's in the same way as 64, or heck even Brawl. Sure, they're not as big as Melee, but they both have a devoted fanbase. I think the same will happen here. Sure, will it be difficult? Yes. Will there be problems with loading and capturing gameplay? Of course. But it's not like we haven't seen, or even settled these issues before. If we're somehow able to make a mod featuring two characters that had to made from scratch, I think we can make it through. Now, one could say that we won't be as big. Sure, we probably won't.But I think we'll be big enough to at least deserve our own spot among the console games. Not just a side gig.

Speak those words. Hard and proud. I really have nothin to say to this but yes. We deserve to our own spot among the concole games. No side gig, no nothin.

 

[SmashChu]

Capsules don't have their own individual slot, this is true. However there is a way to have them never appear, at least they never appeared for me when I did it this way. Turn all items off and turn on the specific items you want. Capsules should fall under the "all items off" part since they don't have their own slot. They should never appear then, at least they haven't for me. I even tested going in a infinite time match against a CPU and didn't have one appear at during the whole 30 minuets I could handle.

Capsules fall under "Containers" which includes boxes and barrels.

Items randomness also hurts. Randomness is inherently anti-competitive. Look at all competitive sports: they are set on pre-determined and set locations with even balance for everyone to where what determines a match is the competitors/athletes and how good they are and how well they perform

We don't have the FIFA World Cup played on fields that move or, with refs that literally join one team or another (aka Pokéballs and Assist Trophies are essentially that). We don't have football players legally bulking up on steroids on the sidelines (see: power up items, specifically Smash balls) as a way to "even the score" or to get an advantage (comebacks happen organically, and they are more entertaining for it). We don't have baseball games consistently deal with randomly falling objects or dodging potentially match wrecking hazards.

That is because all of this is anti-competition, unless we want to change the competition from "Who is the best Smash player/player of *insert sport here* in a fair location?" to "Who is the best Smash player/player of *insert sport here* in a wacky environment that makes no sense*

Essentially, it would be more like pro wrestling than actually competition.

We want to see players win based on their skill, not some bullcrap item win a match for them, similarly to how we want to see the World Series won by one team hitting, pitching, fielding, base running, and catching better than the other team, not because a guy tripped on a banana peel.

Basically, items are random (which thus is anti-competitive; if you want to play it casually, then fine.), items don't add anything, items cause enhanced camping, items make standard attacks typically obsolete, items cause matches to become needlessly longer more often than not, and items almost always make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

This is what some communities have done. There's nothing wrong with side tournaments with items, but items legal at any major tournament... just... no!!!

I find it funny, because almost everyone pushing for that isn't a competitive player... like at all.

And if they are competitive players who enter tournaments, it's usually local tournaments in some area with no quality players.

This has to be the dumbest argument I've ever heard.

When these sports were made, they did not sit there and say "Hmmm, how do we remove the randomness of it." You can even set up random situations in sports besides the coin flip in football. But in a video game you can.

At the same time, you ignore Poker which is played competitively and has more dependent on random chance than Smash with items. And you know what, Professional poker is more widely recognized and they players make more money than Smash players do. There is nothing wrong with random elements. The player needs to just play though them.

The problem is two fold. First, the random element is an easy excuse. If you die to an item, it easier to blame the item than blame yourself for playing poorly. But if you can't deal with something, ban it. That is the mentality of the community. Look at the Meta-Knight debate. The other issue is pure ignorance with items. I have seen far to often people make dumb statement with items saying they are all over powered (because the smoke ball is SOOOO strong). I have seen far too many tourneyfriends shield warp stars. EVO08 showed us that you have to understand the items if you want to win with them. Ken got beat because he made dumb moves and didn't understand how his final smash worked. of course, the community had a fit for beating their golden boy. Rather than learn the items, they want to rather not deal with them. I will use them and I plan to smack down so many competitive players online. In general, competitive smash players know so little about the game they play. Heck, people in this thread were debating if you can turn the capsule off. The answer is you can, otherwise, you wouldn't be able to have a sticker factory. They want to play their house rules rather than be actually good. This is probably why they had to make a mod with all the tech skills because they can't win by mashing buttons and have to do things like spacing and zoning. They have to learn the ins and outs of Smash. But it's easier to ban stuff.