Is Zelda still considered "the worst?"

[Meru.]

Zelda is low tier now. Many match-ups have become (more) doable now but she still has a loooot of bad match-ups. She loses against pretty much every top/high tier and against quite some mid tiers.

She's definitely not the worst anymore though. Not counting the Miis, the worst character is probably Jiggs, followed by Ganon.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

I think an expert Zelda player could make her functionally lower mid-tier pre-buffs. For everyone else she was low-tier.

Now I think Zelda is consistently mid-tier or higher. She might even be upper mid-tier but certainly not high tier without more buffs, and her ability to deal with any higher tiers comes from MU advantage or player skill.

I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I'd lean more towards very experienced. Dealing with higher tier characters hasn't really been a problem for me in the past. A friend of mine used to destroy me in the old days, but I got a LOT better, and now he doesn't win much at all. He usually uses fox against my Zelda, and STILL loses. Sometimes badly. He was the only person I thought of as hard to beat, but now he's hardly a threat. In fact, he's a VERY poor loser usually, but when I beat him with Zelda, he's just an ass. Reminds me of another person at my College, but he's still me friend.

 

[Alacion]

Zelda is still just as bad as before. The patch did nothing to address her underlying problems of having THE worse neutral in the game.

The up air buff was nice for sure, but it's only a little bit better than what it used to be. Some examples of truly useful buffs are improved frame data on aerials and movement speed. Also, a jab and grabs that are not the slowest in the game would help a lot. Personally, I'd take a panic jab (ZSS, Falcon) over Zelda's current jab any day. A slow grab makes it hard to punish plus Zelda is slow enough as it is which only compounds the issue.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Sure as hell better than , that's for sure. Maybe as well but time will tell. Her getting 9th at Come to Papa was still very impressive, but she needs more.

I will try and get more.

 

[Lord Renning]

Zelda is still just as bad as before. The patch did nothing to address her underlying problems of having THE worse neutral in the game.

The up air buff was nice for sure, but it's only a little bit better than what it used to be. Some examples of truly useful buffs are improved frame data on aerials and movement speed. Also, a jab and grabs that are not the slowest in the game would help a lot. Personally, I'd take a panic jab (ZSS, Falcon) over Zelda's current jab any day. A slow grab makes it hard to punish plus Zelda is slow enough as it is which only compounds the issue.

Could you explain what Zelda's neutral consists of and why it is bad?

 

[Alacion]

Could you explain what Zelda's neutral consists of and why it is bad?

Have you played Zelda before?

 

[Furret]

Could you explain what Zelda's neutral consists of and why it is bad?

it doesn't consist of anything really, that's why its bad

 

[Meru.]

Could you explain what Zelda's neutral consists of and why it is bad?

To give you a serious answer: a lot if her options are unsafe. Her options out of a dash are all unsafe (dash attack, grab) as are her options out of a jump (except for immediately landing after lightning kick but thats nearly impossible to get). Her only pseudo-safe options to do out of a dash are Nair and Phantom. The former one has beautiful disjoint but limited range and opponents who know what they're doing can punish it anyway, the latter one has 30 frames of startup and leaves you at a huge frame disadvantage. To make it even wirse her running and walking speed are in eif the slowest in the game. Someone like Bayonetta can just Dtilt very approach Zelda has, and you do not want to eat Bayonetta's Dtilt. This results in her having one of the worst approaches in the game.

She cannot force approaches either because her projectiles are simply awful so she's forced to deal with her weakness. To top it off a lot of the moves she has are unsafe and punishable. She does have a few safe tools though. Her jab and Dtilt (spaced) are both quite safe, and the backside of Utilt is pretty safe too (you may get away with the front side too). Phantom is pseudo-safe in that you're at a huge frame disadvantage but against many characters he will protect you. Lastly you can get away with Ftilt because of its range, especially against characters who do not have good dash grabs or dash attacks. It is punishable though, but your opponent's human reaction time will not always make it in time.

In short, in Smash4 the good characters can get maximum reward of safe moves: they don't have to commit. Zelda does not possess this trait at all: she has to commit a lot, especially if the opponent plays outside if her range and she is forced to approach. That gives her one of the worst neutral in the game.

 

[LucinaNab1]

My thoughts about all this are; I can't see how Zelda's neutral game is totally nonexistent. If someone wants to projectile camp Zelda, they're having a bad time getting it deflected back at them. If they want to hide near the ledge, that's a free Din's Fire to force a dodge or approach. I set my c stick to special for her, so if people try to be all smart, I can just do a nice fade away jump and they get a phantom in their face.

I honestly still think Zelda has a lot of options. You just have to be tricky and always mix it up. Don't give up, Zelda mains!

 

[Silverwind 2020]

Zelda is a great character to use. From what I've seen, with experienced users, she's much more capable than others make her out to be. ALL of her projectiles are powerful, you just have to know when and how to use them. She's got defensive moves as well as offensive moves that help deter and foil approaches from enemies. She's her own character, and that's what makes people so upset. She's everything BUT Sheik. Because she's not Sheik people see her as bad, which is extremely naive. Anyway, who cares? I'm still going to use Zelda, and I'm still going to beat people who use top tiers, so forget you!

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda is a great character to use. From what I've seen, with experienced users, she's much more capable than others make her out to be. ALL of her projectiles are powerful, you just have to know when and how to use them. She's got defensive moves as well as offensive moves that help deter and foil approaches from enemies. She's her own character, and that's what makes people so upset. She's everything BUT Sheik. Because she's not Sheik people see her as bad, which is extremely naive. Anyway, who cares? I'm still going to use Zelda, and I'm still going to beat people who use top tiers, so forget you!

ow the edge

 

[Silverwind 2020]

ow the edge

I apologize for being so blunt, but apparently it's the truth. I've never had any problems using Zelda except for when I was first learning to use her, and sometimes with her recovery on certain stages, but that's exactly how it is for every other character. I don't think it's fair to label a video game character in a game full of numbers the worst, or say that she's just awful. That's like saying space shuttles are superior to rockets. Which by the way are NOT. They were made for different reasons. When the reasons changed, shuttles were used. Plain and simple. It's kind of like how some people will always think melee is the best. Of course human kind realized there were better ways to land astronauts, than splash down, but it's still an idea. ANYWAY, like this idea Zelda is a character with strengths and weaknesses. Those who use her are no worse off than those who use Sheik, but it's HOW you use those strengths, and avoid those weaknesses. There are certain characters that Zelda has trouble against, but believe it or not Sheik fans, there are also characters that Sheik has trouble against. Don't hate on a character you can't use, or the others that use them. That makes no sense at all. I've been playing this game for years, and it's one of my favorites, but there are a few things I can't stand. Those things are, ignorant people, and tier lists. If I learned anything from being an athlete, it's that anything can happen. Those who don't think so can never become anything more than they already are.

 

[ZombieBran]

ANYWAY, like this idea Zelda is a character with strengths and weaknesses. Those who use her are no worse off than those who use Sheik

Zelda has some strengths but many more weaknesses. Heck, she has strengths Sheik lacks.
But Sheik is undeniably a much better character, even with the nerf hammer she recently suffered.

The only way Zelda performs better is in a casual FFA match, and even that is debatable.

I gotta say, you are the first person I've ever seen suggest that Zelda and Sheik are at the same level in this game.

 

[Furret]

Zelda has some strengths but many more weaknesses.

i'd say its more the weaknesses outweigh the strengths
because there are a few strengths,
but like the elephant(s) in the room are the weakness(es)

 

[Meru.]

I apologize for being so blunt, but apparently it's the truth. I've never had any problems using Zelda except for when I was first learning to use her, and sometimes with her recovery on certain stages, but that's exactly how it is for every other character. I don't think it's fair to label a video game character in a game full of numbers the worst, or say that she's just awful. That's like saying space shuttles are superior to rockets. Which by the way are NOT. They were made for different reasons. When the reasons changed, shuttles were used. Plain and simple. It's kind of like how some people will always think melee is the best. Of course human kind realized there were better ways to land astronauts, than splash down, but it's still an idea. ANYWAY, like this idea Zelda is a character with strengths and weaknesses. Those who use her are no worse off than those who use Sheik, but it's HOW you use those strengths, and avoid those weaknesses. There are certain characters that Zelda has trouble against, but believe it or not Sheik fans, there are also characters that Sheik has trouble against. Don't hate on a character you can't use, or the others that use them. That makes no sense at all. I've been playing this game for years, and it's one of my favorites, but there are a few things I can't stand. Those things are, ignorant people, and tier lists. If I learned anything from being an athlete, it's that anything can happen. Those who don't think so can never become anything more than they already are.

Name me one match-up in which Zelda does better than Sheik.

I think most Zelda players can agree that the match-ups in red are all in her disadvantage:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma, (Bayonetta)
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

These are just the match-ups where I'm quite sure of most Zelda's will agree on. In a likelihood there are even more match-ups that are disadvantageous (I personally find Pit, Lucario, ROB, Mewtwo (ugh especially him) bad match-ups as well, among more). On top of that some match-ups are not just bad, they're REALLY bad. A match-up spread like this, where you lose to at least half of the cast and literally against every prominent character, is simply not good.

Don't hate on a character you can't use, or the others that use them.

We're not hating on her nor on anyone who uses her (because that would be ourselves). We're assessing this character for her qualities in top level 1v1 play. Zelda scores very low because of her match-up spread (see above). The chances are this character will succeed are not 0, they never are, but when the chances are 0,001% this character can take a tournament in top level play, you might as well just round it down.

 

[Macchiato]

Name me one match-up in which Zelda does better than Sheik.

I think most Zelda players can agree that the match-ups in red are all in her disadvantage:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma, (Bayonetta)
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

These are just the match-ups where I'm quite sure of most Zelda's will agree on. In a likelihood there are even more match-ups that are disadvantageous (I personally find Pit, Lucario, ROB, Mewtwo (ugh especially him) bad match-ups as well, among more). On top of that some match-ups are not just bad, they're REALLY bad. A match-up spread like this, where you lose to at least half of the cast and literally against every prominent character, is simply not good.



We're not hating on her nor on anyone who uses her (because that would be ourselves). We're assessing this character for her qualities in top level 1v1 play. Zelda scores very low because of her match-up spread (see above). The chances are this character will succeed are not 0, they never are, but when the chances are 0,001% this character can take a tournament in top level play, you might as well just round it down.

Seems right but I think we may beat Ness and we're even with Falcon and Villager. I'd also add Wii Fit, that match-up is horrible for Zelda.

 

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, Zelda is now better than Jigglypuff and competes with Ganondorf for second to last place on the tier list. The recent buffs were good for her damage racking ability but they didn't improve any of her other terrible attributes.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

Name me one match-up in which Zelda does better than Sheik.

I think most Zelda players can agree that the match-ups in red are all in her disadvantage:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma, (Bayonetta)
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

These are just the match-ups where I'm quite sure of most Zelda's will agree on. In a likelihood there are even more match-ups that are disadvantageous (I personally find Pit, Lucario, ROB, Mewtwo (ugh especially him) bad match-ups as well, among more). On top of that some match-ups are not just bad, they're REALLY bad. A match-up spread like this, where you lose to at least half of the cast and literally against every prominent character, is simply not good.



We're not hating on her nor on anyone who uses her (because that would be ourselves). We're assessing this character for her qualities in top level 1v1 play. Zelda scores very low because of her match-up spread (see above). The chances are this character will succeed are not 0, they never are, but when the chances are 0,001% this character can take a tournament in top level play, you might as well just round it down.

I'm not most people, and I'm not crazy. I'm not even saying Zelda is as useful as Sheik. But both of them have strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps Zelda's weakness are easier to exploit, and are more common, but Zelda can beat every member of the cast depending on how good the user is, and if they understand how she's supposed to be played, and not like Sheik, because she's not, and if you try to use her like Sheik, you WILL die.

 

[Deleted member]

She isn't bad because people try to play her like Sheik (which is pretty much impossible to do even if you try.) She is bad because she has major design flaws that prevent her from truly excelling at any kind of playstyle. Yes she has some strengths, but they are severely overshadowed by her weaknesses.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

She isn't bad because people try to play her like Sheik (which is pretty much impossible to do even if you try.) She is bad because she has major design flaws that prevent her from truly excelling at any kind of playstyle. Yes she has some strengths, but they are severely overshadowed by her weaknesses.

But that's the kind of talk I can't stand. Are you going to complain and make excuses, or are you going to make her work for you?

 

[Rickster]

But that's the kind of talk I can't stand. Are you going to complain and make excuses, or are you going to make her work for you?

We've been doing this for a loooooong time, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Believe me, everybody here loves Zelda and wants to see her shine. Unfortunately, she's never going to rise above low tier without major buffs, more major than anything she has gotten so far. The simple fact is she is not a good competitive character. She doesn't have much unexplored tech because she doesn't have the movement options or frame data needed for that kind of depth. She has the same design flaws that she has had since she first joined the roster in Melee over a decade ago (in fact, they took the one good thing about her in Melee - Lightning Kicks - and made them significantly worse.)

 

[Berserker.]

Zelda sucks and it's also a fact that she sucks. She has waaay too many weaknesses as a character and she lacks the strengths to compensate for her said weaknesses. She doesn't have a lot of potential to grow as a character because of her own design flaws. Hell her design doesn't make sense at all to begin with. Lol

You can assume that some good player can do really well with Zelda and work with her major flaws but the thing is, why go through so much trouble with Zelda when you can use a character that's simply outright better (aka: almost 95% of the cast) than Zelda? You basically have little to no reason to use Zelda unless you're loyal to the character or you simply have fun with her design

If the player is doing really well with Zelda, that isn't automatic proof that Zelda is a lot better than everyone thought. If anything (well actually, it is) it's simply because the player is that good. Because despite all the flaws of the character and despite the lack of strengths, he managed to outplay the opponent, make some good reads here and there (or maybe just landed a finger bang), and made it a point that opponents had little to no opportunities to capitalize on Zelda's (many) weaknesses

So unless there's some super advanced tech that can actually help Zelda a lot, no way in hell she's at least a decent or a subpar character. She's a bad character

 

[Silverwind 2020]

Believe me, everybody here loves Zelda and wants to see her shine. Unfortunately, she's never going to rise above low tier without some major buffs. And I don't mean just some extra damage which, while appreciated, does nothing to fix her most glaring flaws. The reality is she is not a good competitive character. It's a simple fact. She doesn't have much unexplored potential because she doesn't have the movement options or frame data to do much more with her. She has a lot of the same design flaws that she has had since she first joined the roster in Melee over a decade ago (in fact, they took the one good thing about her in Melee - her Lightning Kicks - and made them significantly worse.)

Yeah, I don't like how her lightning kicks had the knock back nerfed, but we're just gonna have to deal with it.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not even just the KB nerf from Brawl, which is actually the least of her problems. It's the fact that they are so unsafe due to their noticeably increased end lag and landing lag. The sourspot is so pathetically weak that it's punishable on hit, and the sweetspots, while easier to hit with than in Brawl, are still smaller and much harder to hit with than they were in Melee.

I'm not trying to crush your dreams or anything. I love playing Zelda for fun and you should continue to do the same. I'm just saying you need to be realistic about her abilities on a competitive level, which is the point of this thread.

 

[LucinaNab1]

Here's to hoping Zelda receives her much needed buffs, being my favorite Smash character overall. In fact she was a strong selling point for Melee in my eyes, too bad the development team didn't treat her that way. Onward to patch 1.1.6!

 

[Silverwind 2020]

Zelda sucks and it's also a fact that she sucks. She has waaay too many weaknesses as a character and she lacks the strengths to compensate for her said weaknesses. She doesn't have a lot of potential to grow as a character because of her own design flaws. Hell her design doesn't make sense at all to begin with. Lol

You can assume that some good player can do really well with Zelda and work with her major flaws but the thing is, why go through so much trouble with Zelda when you can use a character that's simply outright better (aka: almost 95% of the cast) than Zelda? You basically have little to no reason to use Zelda unless you're loyal to the character or you simply have fun with her design

If the player is doing really well with Zelda, that isn't automatic proof that Zelda is a lot better than everyone thought. If anything (well actually, it is) it's simply because the player is that good. Because despite all the flaws of the character and despite the lack of strengths, he managed to outplay the opponent, make some good reads here and there (or maybe just landed a finger bang), and made it a point that opponents had little to no opportunities to capitalize on Zelda's (many) weaknesses

So unless there's some super advanced tech that can actually help Zelda a lot, no way in hell she's at least a decent or a subpar character. She's a bad character

She's not a bad character, but there is a certain way you need to use her. PERSONALLY, not only do I have fun using her, but I also get results. I think of course it's a result of my hard work, but if Zelda was just as awful as you say, there's not way anyone who would win with her, and that's definitely not true. I think to understand this you have to actually learn the character, not just pick her up once, lose, and say: "Well she's the worst." There are plenty of salty people who can't stand to lose to Zelda, because they're bad losers, and that's just a personal thing they need to work out, but people shouldn't be discouraged to use a character they actually like by someone who doesn't actually use the character.

 

[LucinaNab1]

This logic is true of any character, and not just Zelda. There is no such thing as just picking a character up and winning automatically. If it really was that easy, what would the professionals be? Hackers? Cheaters? No professional got to where they are with anything different than consistent, hard work. And that is true regardless of character. So you may as well play whoever you like. But I can understand that a lot of people wouldn't have enough time. Zelda is a character where only the most dedicated mains will succeed.

 

[BJN39]

She's not a bad character, but there is a certain way you need to use her. PERSONALLY, not only do I have fun using her, but I also get results. I think of course it's a result of my hard work, but if Zelda was just as awful as you say, there's not way anyone who would win with her, and that's definitely not true. I think to understand this you have to actually learn the character, not just pick her up once, lose, and say: "Well she's the worst." There are plenty of salty people who can't stand to lose to Zelda, because they're bad losers, and that's just a personal thing they need to work out, but people shouldn't be discouraged to use a character they actually like by someone who doesn't actually use the character.

What are these results if I may ask? Smasher club? Local tourney? Bigger?

It feels like you aren't listening to anything anyone says and then just repeating the same things you've been saying. One particular theme you've been repeating is the "Just have to know how to use her." I can assure you that a majority of the people who have been arguing here so far know how to play Zelda, have dedicated time to her for a while now, and aren't "one loss and done" zelda players as you keep suggesting. Also saying something like "No Zelda would ever win," doesn't work. At the best levels, in important tournament matches, almost never has or will Zelda win a match. On For Glory Zelda can win all the time, but that's a whole different area that doesn't contribute to results or opinions for Zelda's viability.

To some extent if you've heard one person say something (Ex: Zelda is unviable, here's why...) you can go repeat it, but that isn't the case here. Alacion for one is a dedicated Brawl and Smash 4 Zelda player who is at least somewhat name-known in Canada. Probably responded short and sarcastically because like many long-time Zeldas, he's tired of having to explain every time what exactly makes Zelda bad and how she is worse than many characters, and anyone who wants to dedicate time to Zelda will very quickly find out what her flaws are.

...But maybe we're just arguing with different terms in mind. When someone walks in saying "Zelda can beat any character" everyone here is likely thinking of the top player caliber, where Zelda cannot beat any character should both players be on the same skill level.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

What are these results if I may ask? Smasher club? Local tourney? Bigger?

It feels like you aren't listening to anything anyone says and then just repeating the same things you've been saying. One particular theme you've been repeating is the "Just have to know how to use her." I can assure you that a majority of the people who have been arguing here so far know how to play Zelda, have dedicated time to her for a while now, and aren't "one loss and done" zelda players as you keep suggesting. Also saying something like "No Zelda would ever win," doesn't work. At the best levels, in important tournament matches, almost never has or will Zelda win a match. On For Glory Zelda can win all the time, but that's a whole different area that doesn't contribute to results or opinions for Zelda's viability.

To some extent if you've heard one person say something (Ex: Zelda is unviable, here's why...) you can go repeat it, but that isn't the case here. Alacion for one is a dedicated Brawl and Smash 4 Zelda player who is at least somewhat name-known in Canada. Probably responded short and sarcastically because like many long-time Zeldas, he's tired of having to explain every time what exactly makes Zelda bad and how she is worse than many characters, and anyone who wants to dedicate time to Zelda will very quickly find out what her flaws are.

...But maybe we're just arguing with different terms in mind. When someone walks in saying "Zelda can beat any character" everyone here is likely thinking of the top player caliber, where Zelda cannot beat any character should both players be on the same skill level.

Alright, so what I'm saying is there are a lot of people who don't dedicate a lot of time to Zelda, and then just write her off as being terrible. Just so you understand that. What they don't realize is, Zelda just isn't the character they need to be playing. They just need to move on to another character. However, there are other people who can totally work with Zelda, and I've seen it. They're really comfortable using the character, and they can just make it work. I'm guessing obviously Zelda doesn't work for you, so DON'T use her. What I see are a bunch of people who don't play Zelda and say she's the worst, and so what I have to say to those people is you're probably underestimating her. I've met lots of people just like that who lose to my Zelda and it drives them crazy. I also see people who DO play Zelda, and don't just admit she has a few weaknesses, which she does like any other character, but who do nothing but complain, and that's just quitter talk. Those are people who just make excuses for everything they're doing to make themselves not look as bad. So if you don't read anything else I post here, just read this: Zelda is just another character in a video game. If you don't use her, that's fine. If you do use her, that's fine. The people who DO use her are no worse off doing that, and people shouldn't mess with them about it. I REALLY don't give a crap about tier lists. I believe they are unreliable because 1: They're always changing, and 2: They don't predict who's going to win, it's all just numbers, and as an athlete and martial artist, numbers mean little to nothing to me, because I know they can always be broken.

 

[LucinaNab1]

Very nice. In other words, the player is the tier list, not the character. And besides, what difference does it make, if you do not play at the highest level and use Smash 4 as a source of income? I understand many players here are professional, but guess what, there are also many who are not. Myself included. Honestly, if I could just trash everyone I meet in For Glory, I'd probably be happy enough with that. I can do other things to make money.

 

[Rickster]

The ironic thing is that the most veteran Zelda players (read:some of our best) are the most pessimistic ones.

Also lol at Zelda not working for BJN. That gorl has been here for years and has basically done 99% of Zelda's data (both Brawl AND Smash 4, mind you) without a ton of help. To say that Zelda doesn't work for him and that he shouldn't use her is completely ridiculous.

And tbh the Zelda boards don't even complain about their character nearly as much as other boards do. Heck, we just make jokes about her viability instead of being delusional like other bottom tier mains. But that's slowly going away though...

I will agree however that Zelda is underestimated. But that doesn't mean she's not still bottom tier.

 

[BJN39]

If you think I'm someone who needs to move on from Zelda because I talk about her weaknesses often, you don't know me at all.

I REALLY don't give a crap about tier lists. I believe they are unreliable because 1: They're always changing, and 2: They don't predict who's going to win, it's all just numbers, and as an athlete and martial artist, numbers mean little to nothing to me, because I know they can always be broken.

Except they do predict who will win if you are talking about characters who are a decent viability distance apart. The matchups help make the tier list, and Zelda loses to a large amount of characters, especially the ones that are obviously better characters, regardless of if you believe in tier lists.

You and LucinaNab1 are holding on extremely tight to the idea that Zeldas can beat anyone if the player is good enough. Sure, Zelda will beat any character if the two players on are very different skill calibers, (Where the Zelda player is most certainly a better player than the opponent. We call that being outplayed.) but she won't beat characters like Sheik/ZSS/Cloud if they are at an equally good skill level.

Also you never answered my question from before: I'd personally like to hear what results you're getting with Zelda.

Re: Suggesting I move on from Zelda

I literally cannot play anyone optimally except for Zelda and never will lmao

 

[LucinaNab1]

I say what I say knowing full well equal skilled players will have a bad outcome for Zelda. I'm not stupid. However I'm saying what any positive person would, pessimism gets nowhere. What would any normal person say who isn't as deeply involved? "Well, looks like you need more skill." I said the same thing in the Lucina threads when I was in there. It's not the character, it's the person. Get 'er done.

 

[Alacion]

Just going to type stuff as it comes to mind.

Zelda is my favourite Smash character and I actually have put in a LOT of time into Zelda. I have put a lot of time playing Zelda and making my own contributions to the character - most notably the Brawl Zelda guide. I have years more experience than a lot of the newer people here. I'm also in a relatively unknown region for Brawl/Smash 4, but we have well known players that have kept up and beaten top level players. My region is known in the Melee scene and in my Melee prime my best placing was top 8 in a tournament with all our PR in it while not being in it myself going all Zelda. Believe me, I am fairly knowledgeable when it comes to Zelda. I don't wi-fi much but I think those that have played me can attest that my Zelda is no slouch.

I really want the character to be good. I'm not hoping Zelda gets worse every patch, I seriously want buffs that would boost her to mid-high tier but in a nutshell her natural attributes are not suited for competitive play and damage output is NOT the answer to fixing Zelda unless we're talking about her getting somewhat lower % kill confirms (not Farore's which is never guaranteed) like Ryu. Up air hitbox being improved this patch is definitely a good start.

The issue with many players is that they can flaunt results but if your region is crap, well that doesn't really help your case in my eyes. Honestly, Zelda is so bad that if anybody places 1st or 2nd I automatically assume that the tournament consists of scrubs unless proven otherwise. You, a Zelda player, being 1st on PR really means nothing to me. I'm not even on a PR personally but watching some "top Zeldas" play make me cringe. Your awful habits are never being punished... one would be Zeldas that approach by airdodge every time for free. Opponents that don't know that you can DI Zelda's dthrow drive me nuts. I'm pretty sure I'm the best (insert random character) on my block. Doesn't mean I have actual credibility.

Tier Lists are very good indicators of the metagame and of course they are never perfect. The amount of jank in Smash 4 compared to other games, patches, and abundance of unexplored characters/matchups compounds that. With this said though, tier lists in general provides good guidance. If literally every person who has ever made a tier list puts Zelda at the bottom, there is something to be said and maybe you shouldn't dismiss instantly because you disagree. Honestly, if skill levels are similar, you should feel bad for losing to Zelda.

My Zelda does not use her ATs. Farore's Wind ledge cancel is a joke and honestly after the first time you do it, it never works after that. Yes it was a thing in Brawl, and yes it stopped working after the first smashfest I used it. Same thing with Love Drops. It's great if you don't consistently play the same people. Eventually, people will adapt to Zelda and realize that camping her out ruins her. What's Zelda going to do? Din's Fire or dash attack? Yeah have fun with that.

Tl;dr Optimism is nice, but Zelda's still bad. Besides, it's fun being a Zelda pessimist.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

Very nice. In other words, the player is the tier list, not the character. And besides, what difference does it make, if you do not play at the highest level and use Smash 4 as a source of income? I understand many players here are professional, but guess what, there are also many who are not. Myself included. Honestly, if I could just trash everyone I meet in For Glory, I'd probably be happy enough with that. I can do other things to make money.

Exactly! People get so obsessed with which character is the best, but the player is ultimately in charge of winning and losing, no matter which character they're using. Following a list that determines how well you do sounds and is actually kind of pitiful. The results I speak of are at a few smaller competitions, and college competitions of which I'm known to dominate. They're also from repetitively beating a man who was known as the only person to be able to stamp me into the dirt. I don't do For Glory because beating someone online isn't something to be proud of. As soon as I get a new car, I will be able to participate in larger competitions in other locations. BJN39, the fact that you use a character you don't even like, yet refuse to stop using her for some reason is nothing short of appalling. Whenever I lose, I know it is a direct result of how hard I've worked, and neither the character I chose, nor my opponent is to blame. So if she's not working for you, simply move on, instead of telling people she's just bad.

 

[LucinaNab1]

I hope some prodigy comes out of nowhere and wins a worldwide tourney with Zelda so people can stop saying she's so bad lol honestly after awhile, the pessimism gets kinda boring. Always be optimistic, even if "truth" and numbers stare you in the face. If we only go by what we can see and what our minds can perceive, we are blind people, indeed.

 

[Alacion]

Let me play surgeon today.

Exactly! People get so obsessed with which character is the best, but the player is ultimately in charge of winning and losing, no matter which character they're using.

A competitive player plays to win. If winning is your ultimate goal, you SHOULD be obsessed with which character is best. Yes, the player controls the character BUT characters carry the player. It sounds like you're saying all characters are created equal... I highly disagree with that.

Following a list that determines how well you do sounds and is actually kind of pitiful.

Oh damn shots fired. Time to pity every competitive player of every game

The results I speak of are at a few smaller competitions, and college competitions of which I'm known to dominate. They're also from repetitively beating a man who was known as the only person to be able to stamp me into the dirt.

This is why you have no clue what you're talking about. Trust me, I am seriously the best smash player in my house and that's why I'm right.

I don't do For Glory because beating someone online isn't something to be proud of. As soon as I get a new car, I will be able to participate in larger competitions in other locations.

Huh... are you saying online play takes no skill? Reads aren't applicable online? Landing a sick combo isn't satisfying? Hope you get a new car soon... then you'll finally understand our standpoint.

BJN39, the fact that you use a character you don't even like, yet refuse to stop using her for some reason is nothing short of appalling. Whenever I lose, I know it is a direct result of how hard I've worked, and neither the character I chose, nor my opponent is to blame. So if she's not working for you, simply move on, instead of telling people she's just bad.

BJN39 please respond to the first part. The second part of your statement is honestly borderline offensive. It's like me losing and saying "bro, I sandbagged you the whole time and I only lost because I didn't care about this match".

I hope some prodigy comes out of nowhere and wins a worldwide tourney with Zelda so people can stop saying she's so bad lol honestly after awhile, the pessimism gets kinda boring.

If you were actually a prodigy, you would be smart enough to use a viable character. It's like saying, hey I'm super smart and good at Pokemon and I'm going to beat your Heliolisk with my Metapod. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3uocURNLOY

Always be optimistic, even if "truth" and numbers stare you in the face. If we only go by what we can see and what our minds can perceive, we are blind people, indeed.

Yeah despite all the scientific evidence saying vaccines don't cause autisum, I'm STILL going to believe all the delirious people that say otherwise despite them having no evidence at all. Yup, I'm hipster that way.

Thanks for reading. Sorry, I don't have a library of GIFs to use.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

Let me play surgeon today.


Oh damn shots fired. Time to pity every competitive player of every game


I don't have to pity every competitive player in every game because some of them actually play the characters they want instead of listening to pessimists like you.

 

[LucinaNab1]

I'll just put it this way, if I wanted negativity and pessimism, I'd hop on over to GameFAQs. I come here to see winners who only want to overcome! So far, the only difference I see here is people actually get reprimanded and disciplined for insulting others or using language. That's about it. "Hey, let's say the same thing everyone else is saying, but say it in a nice way!"

Nah man, I'm a winner. I don't accept loser's talk. I always have a can do attitude, or I remove myself from the situation and apply that same effort with something else.