Is Sakurai being biased on some franchises?

[APC99]

Now, first off, I can understand the splurge of Uprising content. It's his latest game, after all, and he's rather proud of it. But that's not what I'm saying when I talk about Sakurai being "biased". I'm not hateful or anything, it's just something I noticed.

First off, I want to look at the Kirby series. Sakurai's baby, right? Well, we all know that Sakurai left HAL and went to work on other projects. Now, he's been credited as working on:

Kirby's Dream Land (1992, Game Boy)
Kirby's Adventure (1993, NES)
Kirby Super Star (1996, SNES)
Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards (2000, N64)
Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land (2002, GBA)
Kirby Air Ride (2003, GCN)
Kirby and the Amazing Mirror (2004, GBA)

Now, after Sakurai left HAL, there's been a LOT of Kirby games:

Kirby: Canvas Curse (2005, DS)
Kirby: Squeak Squad (2006, DS)
Kirby Super Star Ultra (2008, DS)
Kirby's Epic Yarn (2010, Wii)
Kirby Mass Attack (2011, DS)
Kirby's Return to Dream Land (2011, Wii)
Kirby Triple Deluxe (2014, 3DS)

There's 14 games here, half of them directed by Sakurai (or in Amazing Mirror's case, advised by). While the past Smash Bros. entries get an excuse due to there being less games to take reference from. However, there's been a few more Kirby games since 2008, plus the ones that were during Brawl's development, to take from. To put it bluntly, he doesn't really reference the other games. For instance, while characters like Samus, Marth, and Olimar get updated to look like more recent appearances, and some characters get new moves based off new games (Zelda, Charizard, Olimar again), the Kirby cast get new features... from past games. Namely, Meta Knight's gauntlets from his concept art in Super Star, Dedede's Final Smash (resembling a mini-game from Kirby's Adventure) and the overall lack of content from these games. They look, act and feel like they were ripped right out of Super Star or Adventure... while a lot of the new things they can do, such as in RtDL, is ignored.

Now, I'm not saying there's no representation. We see Ultra Sword Kirby as a Final Smash, as well as (supposedly) a Galacta Knight costume for Meta Knight. And yet, we haven't seen a stage for the games like Squeak Squad, Canvas Curse or Mass Attack. "But those aren't iconic locations in Kirby's universe!", you might say.

Hyrule Temple? Rainbow Cruise? Rumble Falls? Pac-Land? They made 'em work. So, what does Sakurai do for the Kirby stage? Dream Land. on a Game Boy.

While I like the classic things, I feel a lot of the newer stuff has been ignored. We still haven't seen anything from Epic Yarn, Masked Dedede is nowhere to be found, and still no sign of characters like Magolor, Bandana Dee, etc.

What do you guys think? Am I just overthinking it? Are there other examples?

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Now, first off, I can understand the splurge of Uprising content. It's his latest game, after all, and he's rather proud of it. But that's not what I'm saying when I talk about Sakurai being "biased". I'm not hateful or anything, it's just something I noticed.
While I like the classic things, I feel a lot of the newer stuff has been ignored. We still haven't seen anything from Epic Yarn, Masked Dedede is nowhere to be found, and still no sign of characters like Magolor, Bandana Dee, etc.

What do you guys think? Am I just overthinking it? Are there other examples?

I don't see how this is biased. The series has 3 characters represented in smash. That's more than Donkey Kong. As for the stages... not many people like the stage selections regardless of characters. Though I believe the new gameboy level is Kirby based.
As for the design not changing, there really isn't anything to change. They look pretty much the exact same in every game. As for Masked Dedede we don't know. Could be an alt costume.

 

[Niala]

No.

Saying he is biased is only because his opinions and choices on Smash don't align with yours.

Realistically, it's his game and his series. There's no bias, he can create them with however much representation for any given series as he wants.

 

[8-peacock-8]

He's not actually biased.

 

[Ignoth]

Sakurai is pretty reluctant to change up any of the veterans, especially the original 12. Zelda was only updated to replace her down special. Olimar and Charizard are barely veterans, so Sakurai is more willing to tinker with them.

The movesets of the original 12 are still largely entrenched in their old games - I don't think that part is biased as much as it's just keeping with tradition.

Your example with the Kirby stages is interesting though. I can't really comment on it though since I've only really played one Kirby game.

 

[Gidy]

Even if he is, it's his fans fault from assuming so in the first place. I remember in a interview where he said choosing his favorite character would make him biased so he doesn't have one.

 

[APC99]

I don't see how this is biased. The series has 3 characters represented in smash. That's more than Donkey Kong. As for the stages... not many people like the stage selections regardless of characters. Though I believe the new gameboy level is Kirby based.
As for the design not changing, there really isn't anything to change. They look pretty much the exact same in every game. As for Masked Dedede we don't know. Could be an alt costume.

No.

Saying he is biased is only because his opinions and choices on Smash don't align with yours.

Realistically, it's his game and his series. There's no bias, he can create them with however much representation for any given series as he wants.

I can see what you mean. Maybe I'm just slowly going insane.

I'll just leave this thread as food for thought, but I'm not going to attempt to back it up anymore.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I used to not think he was biased.

Then Dark Pit was a character.

How can you not think he's biased with Dark Pit being a character?

That puts the nail in the coffin.

 

[Niala]

I can see what you mean. Maybe I'm just slowly going insane.

I'll just leave this thread as food for thought, but I'm not going to attempt to back it up anymore.

I think the thread itself is fine, you just need to approach your question in a different way. Instead of asking "Is Sakurai biased?" you could ask "Do you think the character representation of series' in Smash is askew?" It implies a more personal level of involvement instead of blaming its creator.

If that was the intention, I would argue that perhaps it is, but as we're currently unaware of the entire final roster, it's hard to make a certain statement at the current time.

 

[RockTheCasbah]

The only thing that felt biased to me was the Kirby characters doing all of the important stuff in the SSE cutscenes.

Not that I really cared about the SSE, but it was funny to joke about Sakurai doing that.

Also if Dark Pit is in that'll be pretty lame. I can understand Palutena but c'mon son

 

[Storm Eagle]

Yes he is. 20 Kid Icarus items and Smash Run enemies and TWO newcomers while DK and Metroid get NOTHING is my argument.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I kinda feel like we would be lying to ourselves if we say Sakurai isn't biased based on the amount of content that has come from Sakurai's games and projects. Namley Kid Icarus.

However, I can't really fault him for doing so as he is the games creator. Could he have been a little less biased in certain places. Yeah, sure. But homie is human and we all have our biases.

 

[StarLight42]

He's very biased on the Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, and Mario series this game and anyone who's saying he's not are just grabbing at straws to defend him.


I didn't like the Kid Icarus bias at first, but then seeing my favorite series in Smash, Mario, got two newcomers and an extra returning veteran, i'm cool with it.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

Yeah. He is biased when it comes to Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem. No doubt in my mind anymore. Two new fighters for those series while Donkey Kong and Metroid receive zero, and Star Fox gets a -1?

I can see Mario getting a lot of attention but there's no excuse why Wolf, Ice Climber and a Mewtwo are not in the game. DLC better be good

 

[Masonomace]

I have little right to claim Masahiro Sakurai has bias for the franchises / game series he's worked on, because I don't know how it feels to be in charge of a few series to call his own, mainly the Kirby series & Kid Icarus series. Those franchises / series he's developed that are made big through Super Smash Brothers is sort of justified. In the end, we all look at it as 'Huge Bias', which from our points of view, looks very correct.

Basically I can't blame Sakurai for being Bias, I still hold respect value for the man doing what he does. However noticing just how much the difference there is of the series representation, it's painfully obvious.

 

[liets]

I think it's hilarious that people complain about Donkey Kong. It's cool and all but in reality it's a very small series, and a spin-off at that.

 

[Khao]

Honestly, Dark Pit is the only thing that's ever made me think he's going too far.

In general, Kid Icarus Uprising was pretty much spawned out of Smash Bros, some mechanics are taken straight out of the Smash series (tilt to walk and tap to dash? That's ****ing Smash) and there's a huge emphasis on weapons that double as melee, and long-range weapons, which wasn't even a thing before Pit's redesign in Brawl. There's just many things in Kid Icarus that work well for Smash because they built the game around the reimagining of the series done specifically for Brawl rather than an actual continuation of the old Kid Icarus games.

So it's only natural to see lots of those new elements making it back into Smash Bros. Items especially work great for Smash, why not add them in?

Not much reason for Dark Pit, though.

Also, about Kirby representation... I honestly don't know what more do you want? There was music from new Kirby games in Brawl and we can probably expect even more in this one. Kirby stages are also not very specific. "Dreamland"? Pretty much every Kirby game takes place in Dreamland, how often do we get specific areas? Even the Halberd is still a thing in the newest games, so I don't know why you'd want something that's a reference specific to one of the new games when you can add something that covers them all. And I'd say updating Kirby's Final Smash is a clear sign that he does care about the new Kirby games. Heck, even adding more Kirby content from the games he hasn't worked on will have people screaming "Bias! Sakurai's babies omg!" I can already see the complaints about too much Kirby if someone like Bandana Dee was added in, even though Sakurai never worked with him.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

I think it's hilarious that people complain about Donkey Kong. It's cool and all but in reality it's a very small series, and a spin-off at that.

I think it's hilarious kids these days think Donkey Kong is a very small series when it's worst selling game is still a higher selling game than the best selling Kid Icarus or Fire Emblem game. Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem are the very small, niche series in Smash Bros., just because hipsters and waifu/hasubando freaks think they are popular, they are not

Real Fact #1993: Star Fox is a more popular series than Kid Icarus

 

[DoctorDub]

If there is one franchise he ****s on, it's Metroid.
Unless we get Ridley.
Then I'm just talking ****.

But the Mario Franchise, I mean, damn. It annoys me how many representatives it has. I mean, 9?! (Donkey Kong and Yoshi technically count. Not sure about Diddy.)

Dark Pit pissed me off, too, but then I kind of like the idea because I can't bring myself to play normal pit. He's just not cool enough. But then, what do I know? Never even played a Kid Icarus game.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

In Smash 4, he's biased toward Kid Icarus: Uprising (but not Fire Emblem--that series deserves 4 characters, contrary to what everyone else thinks) and against Donkey Kong, Mother (if Lucas really is cut), Star Fox (if Wolf really is cut), F-Zero, and Metroid, since all those characters deserve another character but aren't going to be given one, and those 2 characters had no real reason to be cut.. As for Ice Climbers they were cut due to technical difficulties on the 3DS version, which I don't believe was a legitimate reason to not prolong the game to properly implement them but at least this isn't bias.

There's nothing we can do about it, though. So I can only sigh and go "Oh well, maybe next time."

 

[Storm Eagle]

I think it's hilarious that people complain about Donkey Kong. It's cool and all but in reality it's a very small series, and a spin-off at that.

How old are you?

 

[Mypantisgone]

Definitely yes, but I mean duh, I'd be REALLY tempted too. Like if it was Miyamoto, maybe half of the roster would be just Mario and Zelda.
Have you seen the kids on Miiverse asking for their original characters?
So yes, but there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I think it's hilarious that people complain about Donkey Kong. It's cool and all but in reality it's a very small series, and a spin-off at that.

A spin-off of what? Donkey Kong?

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

In Smash 4, he's biased toward Kid Icarus: Uprising (but not Fire Emblem--that series deserves 4 characters, contrary to what everyone else thinks) and against Donkey Kong, Mother (if Lucas really is cut), Star Fox (if Wolf really is cut), F-Zero, and Metroid, since all those characters deserve another character but aren't going to be given one, and those 2 characters had no real reason to be cut.. As for Ice Climbers they were cut due to technical difficulties on the 3DS version, which I don't believe was a legitimate reason to not prolong the game to properly implement them but at least this isn't bias.

There's nothing we can do about it, though. So I can only sigh and go "Oh well, maybe next time."

Fire Emblem doesn't deserve more than two characters, three is the max. What makes you think it "deserves" three? The total sales of the series is no more than eight million, while Star Fox is pushing twelve million. More fans, more exposure. Fire Emblem was on the verge of getting discontinued. I say this as a huge fan of Fire Emblem who sank hundreds of hours into Awakening. The series is niche. There is no reason it should have four fighters

 

[D-idara]

He's very biased on the Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, and Mario series this game and anyone who's saying he's not are just grabbing at straws to defend him.


I didn't like the Kid Icarus bias at first, but then seeing my favorite series in Smash, Mario, got two newcomers and an extra returning veteran, i'm cool with it.

Mario's ****ing Mario, Fire Emblem has become one of the biggest Nintendo franchises and KIU's just amazing, so I don't mind.

I don't give a **** about how much Fire Emblem says, implying that makes it any less epic and memorable, it deserves 4 characters.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Fire Emblem doesn't deserve more than two characters, three is the max. What makes you think the "deserve" three? The total sales of the series is no more than ten million, while Star Fox is pushing twenty five million. More fans, more exposure. Fire Emblem was on the verge of getting discontinued. I say this as a huge fan of Fire Emblem who sank hundreds of hours into Awakening. The series is niche. There is no reason it should have four fighters

Lots of characters, many of them rather memorable and capable of putting up a fight. Sales are irrelevant to me as long as the number of games mean the world is always expanding. Fire Emblem has a ton of games, so it accomplishes that.

That's all that matters to me, so if you excuse me I'm going to dream about Sigurd or Lyn or Ephraim making it into Smash.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd say it's less of bias and more of throwing in a few clones. Really, who were we going to get instead of DP and DrM? Pichu? Dark Shulk? You're crazy if you think Ridley was cut for these guys. I honestly don't see clones as representation.

A spin-off of what? Donkey Kong?

Wario Land is a spin-off of Mario Land and Wario was the main villain. So yes.

 

[---]

There's definitely bias, but then again I'm also pretty sure the guy is nervous about all the properties he has to deal with and is the most comfortable with his own (which to be honest have influenced Smash a LOT, so it makes sense in that regard as well).


So far at least in regards to Smash 4, has definitely been the series most ignored. Once the 3DS releases we better get our DKCR stage and the series's first AT. Some remixed music would also be nice as what has been confirmed so far are just direct from previous games.

 

[SuperNintendoDisney]

Lots of characters, many of them rather memorable and capable of putting up a fight. Sales are irrelevant to me as long as the number of games mean the world is always expanding. Fire Emblem has a ton of games, so it accomplishes that.

That's all that matters to me, so if you excuse me I'm going to dream about Sigurd or Lyn or Ephraim making it into Smash.

Sigurd? Lyn? I change my opinion now. I see the light you have shown to me

 

[Storm Eagle]

I'd say it's less of bias and more of throwing in a few clones. Really, who were we going to get instead of DP and DrM? Pichu? Dark Shulk? You're crazy if you think Ridley was cut for these guys. I honestly don't see clones as representation.

Dark Samus & Dixie Kong. If they were clones instead, I bet nobody would complain about the roster anymore.

 

[LancerStaff]

Dark Samus & Dixie Kong. If they were clones instead, I bet nobody would complain about the roster anymore.

People would instead be complaining the DS and Dixie aren't using their respective powers because they're clones. Clones should be characters who generally share abilities in their own games, or we'll end up with a Ganondorf situation where Sakurai won't want to change their moves to something more fitting.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Do I think he's biased, especially towards Kid Icarus?

Overall, my only gripes regarding the bias is how franchises like DK, Star Fox, and Mother are getting royally screwed over by it but that's almost always been the case. As far as "fair" representation goes, I'd say Melee was the most reasonable given its content.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Sakurai is NOT biased by any means.

 

[ChooChoo]

I could stand a hundred Dark Pits, Pink Pits and Star-Spangled Pits + Bandana Dee as long as we keep getting Fire Emblem reps!

But yes, he is.

 

[Nintendotard]

Dark Samus & Dixie Kong. If they were clones instead, I bet nobody would complain about the roster anymore.

Disagreeable. People will argue that the two can be a lot different from their counterparts. Also, I'm sure people would complain why we would get Dark Samus than Ridley for another thing.

The whole Dark Pit made me start thinking of Sakurai being bias. First off, if he does end up being a clone, there really is no need for him whatsoever. He is literally evil Pit in black (people always seem to mention that he's not evil, but lets leave this spoiler free, I have yet to play KIU anyway) who will have the same moveset if thats the case. I can already see people getting confused if him and Pit are playing together. And just imagine how "different" their palette swaps will be. I'll start coming to acceptance if he has a good variety of differences in him, or just becomes an alt all together, otherwise I'm not happy with his inclusion.

Also, the Mario series is Nintendo's biggest franchise and the mascot of it all. It made sense that they'd get 6 reps, but 7?! Even I was surprised at that. And especially more surprised to see that Dr. Mario was the 7th one. Also not too happy about that. The way I look at it with this rounds of clones, I accepted Lucina a lot faster because of her being her own person in Fire Emblem. She is a descendant of Marth and it makes sense that she is a clone, but I still wish she was unique in her own way aside from taunts >_>. Dr. Mario is Mario in Doctor wear, so it makes me upset that he's in, and as I've mentioned before Dark Pit is evil Pit in black. With the Doctor, at least he's visually different. But his inclusion is highly unnecessary. Pokemon should actually be the ones with the highest vets in my honest opinion (just to return Squirtle and Ivysaur into the mix).

I'm starting to think more on his bias for giving Dedede a new Final Smash, yet people such as Peach and Sheik it'd be more sensible for them to have different ones, but that's just my opinion. Peach moreso, but I guess at the same time I could understand because Luigi was looked at more for a new Final Smash.

tl;dr, Dark Pit being in and Dedede's new final smash leads me to think there might be just a liiiiiittttttllllleeee bit of bias

 

[Erimir]

There's some bias. We've seen way too much Kid Icarus content of all kinds.

Just sticking to the roster, I would say that Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem are disproportionately represented relative to their sales and popularity. But without the clones they'd be ok, so the fact that they only got clones mitigates this somewhat.

The series most screwed over by the Smash 4 roster? Donkey Kong. DK is the 4th highest selling regular franchise in the game, after Mario, Pokemon and Zelda. It has about the same amount of sales as Zelda. Meanwhile they all have gotten 5+ characters while DK is stuck at two. Donkey Kong Returns sold more copies than everything Fire Emblem has done since Brawl. The other franchise that has more sales is the Mii/Wii titles, but that's a special case as the only really possible rep is the Mii, and they got three move sets anyway, which is still more than DK. Hell, DK doesn't even have an AT yet despite options like Rambi, other animal buddies, K Rool, other Kongs, various other bosses, etc.

I think it's hilarious kids these days think Donkey Kong is a very small series when it's worst selling game is still a higher selling game than the best selling Kid Icarus or Fire Emblem game. Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem are the very small, niche series in Smash Bros., just because hipsters and waifu/hasubando freaks think they are popular, they are not

Yeah, I don't know what the hell people are talking about.

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold 6.2 million copies, add in the 3DS port and it's 7.6 million. Either way, that's significantly more copies than everything Fire Emblem has done in the past decade. I don't see how people can say Donkey Kong is a small spin-off series, while saying things like Fire Emblem is "one of Nintendo's biggest series" now. As if it is anywhere close to Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, DK or Kirby. It's not as big as Animal Crossing, Wario, Yoshi, Metroid, Star Fox or Nintendogs either. Yes, it's one of their highest selling series. But it's not in the upper echelons.

And whatever about Fire Emblem having more potential than DK, or whatever argument some FE fan says about it. Donkey Kong is a video game legend and the game Donkey Kong is the reason Nintendo is where it is at all today. And more importantly, even if DK doesn't add fifty new characters with every game it's still true that DK has two hugely worthy characters that could've been added and were highly requested. Sakurai only needed to add one, and he wouldn't be anywhere near scraping the bottom of the DK barrel to do so.

I used to not think he was biased.

Then Dark Pit was a character.

How can you not think he's biased with Dark Pit being a character?

That puts the nail in the coffin.

Look, it's not like he had other candidates for clones, like say, Dark Samus... or Dry Bowser... or Dixie Kong... or Impa... or Black Shadow... or Blood Falcon... or Daisy... or Shadow the Hedgehog... or Proto Man... or Ms. Pac-Man... or Wolf... or Lucas...

 

[Nintendotard]

Look, it's not like he had other candidates for clones, like say, Dark Samus... or Dry Bowser... or Dixie Kong... or Impa... or Black Shadow... or Blood Falcon... or Daisy... or Shadow the Hedgehog... or Proto Man... or Ms. Pac-Man... or Wolf... or Lucas...

So many on here that could be their own unique characters...and two that were hardly clones to begin with -.-

 

[Deleted member]

deleted account

 

[Mysteltainn]

There's definitely bias, and you can see that with the Kid Icarus representation. In the end though, it doesn't matter that much. It's his game and his decisions, and I happen to like Kirby and Kid Icarus, so I don't mind so much.

Let's watch for Dark Pit though, if you questioned whether or not he was biased before his reveal, you'll know after it, lol.

 

[StarLight42]

Mario's ****ing Mario, Fire Emblem has become one of the biggest Nintendo franchises and KIU's just amazing, so I don't mind.

I don't give a **** about how much Fire Emblem says, implying that makes it any less epic and memorable, it deserves 4 characters.

I think Mario deserves it because of sales, and I think Fire Emblem deserved some bias because of Awakening. I....didn't really like Kid Icarus: Uprising, the actual game and the story were great, but....the controls....augh, if they make a sequel it must have analog control, I can't STAND the stylus controls, that might just be my personal preference, but the KI bias did rub the wrong way, at first.

However, at the end of it, I don't really think bias is the way to go for a game like Smash, some people like their franchises better than others, and I feel bad for Zelda and DK fans, but I can live with it myself.