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Is keeping Down B special as transformation necessary anylonger?

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SmashAmass

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Well, Zelda is now an effective character with good meta-game and effective KO potential. She's been spit shined to work well and I have no complaints with her, but why does she need to transform now? Since now she is an effective character in her own right, is it necessary to transform? Before I simply used it to escape her mediocreness in melee and brawl, but now that she is really good, I would much rather prefer an effective Down B move to seal the deal. Pokemon Trainer got that problem solved, so why not Shiek/Zelda?
 
D

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Apart from Transform being grandfathered in from Melee and some people liking the uniqueness of having two characters in one, the issue of separating them lies mostly with Sheik.

Sheik is a very strong Melee veteran. By separating the two, you would have to give Sheik a Down-B (not doing so would be extremely awkward), which would give her another option to use, which would be an unnecessary buff to an already terrific character.

That's not to say that I don't like the idea of Zelda getting an actual Down B, but in Project M, it just isn't meant to be.
 

Heero Yuy

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Honestly I'd like the transform to be removed, but in addition to what Smas said, it kinda feels like it kills the spirit of the whole Zelda/Sheik thing. Zelda transforming into Sheik has been present in OoT, Melee, Brawl, and it was carried out to Project M.

Thus, people tend to utilize Sheilda very well. Even Mew2King has a pretty good Zelda, plus Sheik players transform into Zelda since she has a better recovery.

I can agree that there are a lot of amazing things about her, and transforming into Sheik is certainly one of them.
 

SmashAmass

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Apart from Transform being grandfathered in from Melee and some people liking the uniqueness of having two characters in one, the issue of separating them lies mostly with Sheik.

Sheik is a very strong Melee veteran. By separating the two, you would have to give Sheik a Down-B (not doing so would be extremely awkward), which would give her another option to use, which would be an unnecessary buff to an already terrific character.

That's not to say that I don't like the idea of Zelda getting an actual Down B, but in Project M, it just isn't meant to be.
I suppose so, I never thought about that. What could you give shiek that wouldn't unbalance her even more? Well to be fair, it's possible to give her an effective Down B without completely changing the tier lists, but that is a problem. I think a down B is essential for Zelda, not sure about Shiek though...
 

SmashAmass

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Honestly I'd like the transform to be removed, but in addition to what Smas said, it kinda feels like it kills the spirit of the whole Zelda/Sheik thing. Zelda transforming into Sheik has been present in OoT, Melee, Brawl, and it was carried out to Project M.

Thus, people tend to utilize Sheilda very well. Even Mew2King has a pretty good Zelda, plus Sheik players transform into Zelda since she has a better recovery.

I can agree that there are a lot of amazing things about her, and transforming into Sheik is certainly one of them.
Umm I don't know, It just feels like a gimmick to be honest. Not many people transformed from Sheik to Zelda as a counter, simply because Zelda had too many disadvantages. Pokemon Trainer had the same gimmick, except it was utilized, seems more like what you're saying is about the aesthetics of the whole thing. I don't disagree one bit that it's nostalgic, but it's been ineffective all these years still.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Zelda's strong points have been properly buffed, so wouldn't that be beneficial to transform once in awhile? I haven't thought of that, strictly melee at that moment.
 

Heero Yuy

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Just letting you know that I think double posting is prohibited. You can reply to both our messages in one post. :D

On-topic, it's less Sheik counters Zelda's hard MU's and more you get twice as many options using a Sheilda as opposed to using them separately. To say Mew2King secondaries Zelda is an exaggeration, but because Zelda's recovery is much better than Sheik's, he would need to transform to get back on stage better. Plus, the Zelda MU in Melee is rare, so there's always that mind gaming option for Sheilda users.
 
D

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I agree that transforming is mostly a gimmick. I have never been a fan of being able to switch characters mid-match because it is never going to function the way you want it to. It's not a quick, smooth transition process where you can go from Zelda to Sheik or vice versa mid-combo and do things you couldn't do with them separately, but if they could do that, it would probably end up breaking the character. As things are currently, you're just playing one part of the match as one character and another part of the match as another character. You're never really using them in tandem as a naturally flowing team. If one character has a better matchup against the opponent than the other, there is rarely ever a reason to switch.

I would honestly support completely separating them and giving them new Down Bs (and hope they plan on doing that in Smash 4) if it weren't for the fact that Sheik is ridiculously good and definitely will not be changing.
 

Zerudahime

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Transform is not merely a gimmick at this point.
It has a real purpose and usage since I re-purposed it a bit.
I think it works rather well and works as it should work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFkBR4NqLuo」「http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4CaZyKfaE」「http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zipfEJSyc9g

Very useful tool. ;-)
As far as breaking the character.....it doesn't nearly as much as theory smash would like to think.
Any time you use transform you are deliberately giving up good positioning on the stage to pull it off and sacrificing a good edgeguard for a potential advantage in battle. They also do not compliment each other exceedingly well given that they have the same weight and completely different strategies. Part of it is the player being able to switch mindset immediately and stop thinking like Zelda or vice versa in the game and truly playing as Sheik once you get through that transformation phase. Sheik also has many many years of people fighting her at this point so most people that play both may rely on the OPs unfamiliarity with the MU to gain a slight advantage with Zelda.


EDIT: Also, in regards to PT being..''fixed''...that was more of a difference in transformation. PT was a cycle based transform 3 ways...so transforming mid match was not something that was beneficial really either way seeing as if u wanted a specific character for a MU you may need to transform 2 times to get the right characters. Also, Zelda/Sheik imo were more or less supposed to be used as a team...not always separate. It was just unfortunate that she wasn't as good in melee. This transformation kind of succeeds where shall I dare say, Melee had failed to maximize the potential of two clearly unique characters. The brawl loading time hinders the transformation itself a bit, but its melee purpose/functionality has been implemented. This was a very significant relief for Shieldas and great incentive for them in 2.6.
 

JOE!

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1) Pokemon trainer got separated due to what boils down to "screw transforming", and I assume Samus will not be able to taunt-transform to ZSS in similar vein, why keep this gimmick on Zelda?

2) Splitting the two would nerf Shiek's recovery, which could be filled by a "niche" down B.
 

Red(SP)

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1) Pokemon trainer got separated due to what boils down to "screw transforming", and I assume Samus will not be able to taunt-transform to ZSS in similar vein, why keep this gimmick on Zelda?

2) Splitting the two would nerf Shiek's recovery, which could be filled by a "niche" down B.
1) Pokemon Trainer was a useless asset to the character design, initially. Removing Pokemon Trainer basically unlocked untapped potential and ideas for the three pokemon that were present before then. More room for innovating ideas in moveset design, etc. I don't think it was confirmed anywhere else that Samus would be getting similar treatment as her counterpart? If you wish to post a source or have someone from the PMBR confirm that, be my guest. Transform isn't a gimmick? Lol. I don't really think you fit the criteria to call it a gimmick. As stated earlier, it helps keep a unity between the two characters and giving Sheik a new special would be buffing an already successful character.

2) Sheik as stated in 1) doesn't need a nerf. You actually have to work for a majority of those things now to the point where you don't need to do something like that. I'm sure most people would want the unity to stay, anyway.
 

SpiderMad

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In Japan Third strike/Street fighter tournaments, you have to remain the same character for the whole tournament as they believe counter-picking is gay. I have no clue where this fits in to the argument.

We wouldn't have this problem if you guys just kept Zelda as a fun ZSS instead of evil but powerful Ivysuar
 

drsusredfish

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(not ranting just providing an interesting view on the topic)

How about people look at transform as more of a stance change rather than a character swap. there are a couple of other characters ,though to a lesser extent, that basically get a new set of moves once certain things are done in a match.

You could define a stance as any move that changes the way another move works with the same input. Like changing the tools you have for the match. with this definition most characters have some type of stance but there are characters other than zelda/shiek that have truly character altering stances that basically change their whole or part of their moveset.

You have ice climbers and sopo. You have samus and ZSS. Olimar and Lolimar (olimar with no pikmin). Not to mention having different pikmin is like having a different stance. Rob's side b is a stance because it changes the strength of his air attacks (Rob its time to Oil up?).

to an even lesser lesser extent characters with alterable B moves like warios side b duck and jump, pits turning while he's holding an arrow and glide, ikes side b, marths side b, Lucario sort of has a stance although its more like a stance canceling, bowsers crouch canceling is sort of a stance too, ect, All these are stances that alter the character albeit for a short period of time.

To an even lesser lesser lesser extent characters who can spawn throw-able items are sort of stance characters in that you did something to your character that changes how your normal moves work (ie no normal fsmash and tilts ect while holding item).

When characters in other fighters have stances would they be counted as having counter pick immunity. Stances/transform are just like playing a match differently. What i'm trying to say i guess is if a character can changes stance/transform that stance shouldn't be looked at as a whole different character its just the same character with different options. Zelda/sheik push this idea to the limits since they have the most complete and easily accessible stance change but you wouldn't take away ikes side b or Rob's side B boost or even links bombs just because that stance makes them a different character to fight.
 

Wavebuster

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I find "counterpick immunity" to a be a crock when there are plenty of characters in P:M who can fight both characters just fine. "Counterpick immunity" is just a stigma created by the playerbase without really appreciating the fact that Zelda or Sheik pressing DownB is not an instant win and familiarity with matchups on both ends. By that measure you might as well say that Peach's DownB pulls instantly dictate games, which also isn't true. Peach can get something good out of DownB, but what matters is both players' awareness of what she has, and how they play out that situation. It can even work against Peach if her powerful items are used against her.

The same can be said of Zelda/Sheik's transformations. Transforming will change your character, but you still need to put in work to defeat your opponent. Maybe your opponent will be psyched out by the switch and perform more poorly for it. On the other hand, they might just plow through you for doing the same. The way people make it sound, you'd think that the Transforming character has a self-destruct button strapped to the opponent or something.
 

Strong Badam

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I don't see what removing transform adds to the characters. Not only does it make canonical sense, it also functions perfectly fine at the moment. We generally need a pretty big improvement to justify changing such a core mechanic.
 

Mankosuki

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If Snake sticks a C4 on you, transforming will cause it to fall off since your body is temporarily removed from the battlefield. Just be sure to do it from a jump so you'll reappear away from the C4 when it falls to the ground.
 

WeenusChu

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I'd like to see one of two things happen with this clearly, very sensitive issue.

I am an advocate of it's removal.
I'm aware that Sheik is particularly strong in Melee, but the powercurve for Project M is vastly different.
The concern that Sheik may become even more powerful as the result of adding a new special is natural, but it is a shallow thought.
The old standards are falling to the new cast.
We've seen Wizzrobe's Sonic destroy Fox. A Lucas player beating Mango's Falco.
There are characters with new and exciting style's of recovery that embarrass the old cast.
We have characters with shines that can also DJC.
If Sheik intends to continue to hold up with the new additions to the game, a new Down-B is in order.

However. I would advocate Sheilda as a viable character if it had synergies within itself, rather than it just being a throwback to Ocarina.
Imagine if in some cases, it would be considered the proper way to play a matchup to start as Sheik and then transition to Zelda for kill moves.
A player says to himself,
"Ah, it's Fox. I'll be Sheik so I can chaingrab him and control the stage better, but then I'll switch to Zelda so that I can land a finishing hit."

The medium for this would require a lot of tailoring.
Transform would have to take less time, to start.
Additionally, if this were the intended design direction, we could see changes to the overall dynamic of the characters.
For example, Sheik might become even faster and even better at comboing, but her killing power would be significantly lower.
Zelda might maintain many of her current vulnerabilities, but landing F-Air and B-Air at 80%+ could be enough to kill on even large stages.
While I do not think this is how they would handle it, it's an example of how they could approach making Sheilda the intended style of Sheik/Zelda play.

In the event that they do not try to synergize the two characters however, I'd like to see Light Arrows for Zelda or something.
Just my two cents.
 

drsusredfish

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Oh snap I have a great idea on a way to make the transform synergize between zelda and sheik. Make it attack then transform. If the opponent is close enough and you hit grounded down b on a grounded opponent it pops them up like a ganon dair with alot of stun but minimal damage. The stun may last long enough for the sheik/zelda to follow the transforms attack with another attack or atleast put the opponent in a bad position. transform in the air would hit similarly to zelda's up b in the air but with a set low knock back so the zelda/sheik have a chance to attack right out of the transform with optimal spacing for a bair or fair.

The hit bubble for transform would be the same size as zelda's upb hit bubble, But it comes out on like frame 45 and stays out until sheik/zelda disappear into the bright lights (The hit bubble isn't out while the game is actually loading sheik/zelda). It comes out so late to keep it from being abused but still be useful for sometihing like a missed tech or a very situational spot dodge/ roll read.

(There could be an added thing were if the grounded transform hits an opponent the zelda/sheik coming in can attack instantly once they load like it was in 2.5 but I don't know if you can carry over variables on to the incoming character so the game would know to take the appearance lag away)

This idea for transform satisfies both groups for and against transfrom. Sheik gets a new attack and the characters can have better synergy. Plus we still get to keep the transform.

so imagine. sheik- ftilt-ftilt-ftilt, down b, opponent misses tech, the down b bounds the opponent with ganon dair like stun, zelda comes in with an uptilt.

imagine. zelda- dins set on the field. the opponent feels traped and tries to roll. Zelda down b's they get bounded by the down b. (the dins don't disapear until sheik has started loading) they get hit by a din before sheik comes in then sheik follows up with a fair.

This idea sounds kinda broken but it would be a great answer to this conversation.

I'm gona make this in psa right quick to see how it could work.
 

WeenusChu

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Most people think sheik is top 8 material. It doesn't seem as though she's in need of any help.

This game is still extremely young.
Ivysaur hasn't even been discovered as one of the most broken characters yet.
Sheik may be considered extremely strong now, but I find it hard to believe she'll stay on top as new characters come into their mastery.
 

drsusredfish

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Testing my idea out now. And it works pretty much how i planed. legit transform combos between zelda and sheik on some characters. And it keeps the pace of the match going when it hits. I'm only playing the cpu but reading/guessing a missed tech or an in place tech works well but its hard to hit with such a slow move.
 

Zerudahime

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They are ''synergized''. You just have to do it correctly during the match.
Playing Sheilda is not like playing Ice climbers.
I guess nobody watched any of the videos that I posted above that can show the switching tactics.

Sheik combo>transform>zelda kill.
There are also variations to it as well dair/uair...
it also works vice versa very nicely since you can chain jacket out of transform or fair.

I do it all of the time against a ton of characters.
Guess you all just need to wait until my next CV. Which should be soon =/

if you want legit combos, tanks idea is the only thing that would make it ''work'' but that also becomes a balance issue and lacks the aspect of requiring a good read to finish the combo string.

Transform is fine and better than ever actually considering its punishable on both ends now and allows more of a melee-esque timing to pull off...but that could also be rather subject to playstyle.
 

AbstractLogic

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4CaZyKfaE

I think this way of using transform gives sheilda a chance to actually work. The idea of it has been more of a "main one and secondary the other" when you run into trouble. This allows the two to hybridize in a way that actually increases the potential of both characters. I would rather see more development in the transform metagame instead of two new Down-Bs.
 

otheusrex

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They are ''synergized''. You just have to do it correctly during the match.
Playing Sheilda is not like playing Ice climbers.
I guess nobody watched any of the videos that I posted above that can show the switching tactics.

Sheik combo>transform>zelda kill.
There are also variations to it as well dair/uair...
it also works vice versa very nicely since you can chain jacket out of transform or fair.

I do it all of the time against a ton of characters.
Guess you all just need to wait until my next CV. Which should be soon =/

if you want legit combos, tanks idea is the only thing that would make it ''work'' but that also becomes a balance issue and lacks the aspect of requiring a good read to finish the combo string.

Transform is fine and better than ever actually considering its punishable on both ends now and allows more of a melee-esque timing to pull off...but that could also be rather subject to playstyle.

I have to disagree that transform is adequately synergistic right now. The "jojo," (fairing or bairing out of sheik transforming to zelda) is so situational and easy to avoid that once people know about it only stupid people will get hit by it. With the current loading time of transform, players have all the time in the world to react to it. I can't remember who said this, but I agree 100% that zelda mains need to stop thinking of unfamiliarity of the mu as a strength. Right now, the only way the jojo is viable is in edge-guarding when your opponent is forced to approach you, but I have serious doubts about it being more advantageous than sticking with sheik or zelda and using their own edge-guarding capabilities. TBH, I think zelda's side taunt combined with dins fire is more reliable than the jojo because you can use dins to trick the opponent into rolling into you, and even that is very situational.

Don't get me wrong, the jojo, being the result of iasa frame 1 in aerial transform is great, but in itself doesn't do much to make zelda and sheik feel truly like a team character. However, if they fixed the loading time issue (figuring out how to make the wii keep both character pacs loaded) so that the only thing to wait for in transform was the current starting and ending animations, then I think the iasa design right now really would be enough to synergize them as they should be.

Also, about giving transform itself a hitbox for a sort of synergistic attack like Tank suggested, wouldn't be game breaking or even that reliable. Zelda's side taunt comes out on frame 49, whereas tank's suggestion would come out only 4 frames faster. Granted, I know that this new transform hitbox could be used in the air as well and would yield much more reward, seeing as how you could kill with that combo, but you'd still have to either trick the opponent into running, rolling, or jumping into it, or try to approach the opponent yourself and try to hit them with a move that has 45 frames of start-up. I'd consider that more than adequate risk and difficulty of use to compensate. Captain falcon's neutral b move comes out frame 52 and is a powerful killing move; just look how often people hit with that, and if they do, I've never heard anyone complain that it's too easy to pull off. The transform hitbox would be virtually as difficult, but with only the possibility of a combo.

Yes, I know that 95% of suggestions for buffing/nerfing zelda are dumb, but sometimes it seems like you aren't interested in considering other people's ideas about zelda. I noticed this when I was making a hypothetical point about zelda being fast, and it was so hard to get you to even consider a hypothetical scenario, let alone maintain a conversation about it. (It's completely outside of this topic to even bring up that conversation, but so people don't misunderstand, I wasn't saying that zelda should be fast, I was saying that pmbr could design a fast zelda that was balanced, if they chose to, and that historical context should be more of a guiding light than blinders when exploring different character designs). I know that must sound incredibly arrogant coming from me. I don't want you to feel disrespected, cause I think you're amazing, and I know that you have a much more solid grasp on zelda's capabilities and the implications of changes to her moveset than I do. So I want to acknowledge that I could be totally wrong about this and my perception of your reactions. Don't hate me, please! :sadeyes:

Currently though, I'm not satisfied that the zelda/sheik design fulfills the character concept nintendo had for making them compliment their strengths and weaknesses. It never really has in any of the games, but the aerial iasa frame 1 is a step in the right direction. To me, it will never feel like they are a team until you can transform quickly without loading time issues, but Tank's idea is a really intriguing (to me) alternative to achieving a synergistic feel, with viable applications. It might helpful if we had some videos for a demonstration? (ahem)
 

Zerudahime

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Already responded to this. ^

ALL of Zeldas moves are designed and used with a purpose..but as for my perception and unwillingness to cooperate on hypothetical Zelda situations...that is a completely unfounded and misinformed statement. I'm not insulted im more or less blindsided and dont know where this is coming from. As I am one developer that is known for taking into consideration public opinions and ideas regarding her design. Ive had them with you elf. You can look around the boards, its also there. If it seems like I ignore certain things, its because i may not be at liberty to discuss certain aspects of her that are currently in the works. Needless to say, I'm not discussing transform anymore, but Im always listening to what people say about her good or bad. Not just the way I play and the criticism I receive for it, but I also watch plenty of other Zeldas to see how they are playing her. That is important.

Also, there is a usage for the loading time as well. That was also taken into consideration during the design process of the move. You can bait someone to try and hit you, if they miss, too bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E91_wfIFnx8

btw I finished the video ^
(you can mention some of the wifi clips from DBDI if youd like, but the transformation time is only faster offline..)
 

Needsmorespin

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yeah, but just for fun me, Zeruda and a few other Zelda mains were tossing around some idea's for a new down-b for Zelda and we came up with two good ones
1. a short range (not OP as crap) light bow
2. make it detonate Din's fire on command
I really like the idea of the second one, even if it makes things rather easy, could always find a way to balance it, like make it take a few frames to do, plus for fun, make a small animation where Zelda clicks her fingers and that sets off the Din's fire
 

Kerenthar

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n4CaZyKfaE

I think this way of using transform gives sheilda a chance to actually work. The idea of it has been more of a "main one and secondary the other" when you run into trouble. This allows the two to hybridize in a way that actually increases the potential of both characters. I would rather see more development in the transform metagame instead of two new Down-Bs.

This guys knows.
And I think every character in the game with transforming capabilities (Samus too) would must be developed in order to make use of it (every single thread I opened about this with Pokémon Trainer and the possibility to transform without denied his new down-B was closed so be carefully U_U ).

On-topic again:
More development in transforming metagame would to consider that advantages must work better to Zelda players than Sheik's. Melee top tiers are still top tiers in P:M (almost all).
 

otheusrex

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I think I finally found something that would satisfy everyone. Why don't we do both? Give zelda and sheik each a new down b, and design a separate zelda/sheik character around transforming. With the clone engine, they could add another zelda and sheik with a transform buff designed to be transforming mid followups in battle. The original zelda and sheik are already good enough to be stand alone characters in themselves, so giving them a new down b would just round out their capabilities.

New Shielda:

The only game where zelda transforms into sheik is ocarina of time, so their models would be based off of that game specifically, while the stand alone versions would be from the other games. To truly design a character, first they would need to fix the loading time issue. Secondly, they'd have to make it quick and safe in battle, maybe not instant, but at least as safe as most other moves so let's just say 10-20 frames? That way it wouldn't be broken, but you could still transform during a combo or followup. Sheik's speed and ability to chain hits together would be preserved but would have a nerf to killing power, which zelda would fulfill, so you'd see a lot of jojo like kills. Zelda would keep her defensive capabilities like her great floatiness and love jump to escape combos, her reflective and invincibility frame nayru, but lack the offensive flavor of land cancel nayru and possibly dins fire set ups.

Having a separate version of shielda would allow them to design the truly tagteam style of fighter that was the nintendo's original concept for how she was supposed to work by making a transform that was super good. There would be no danger of the character being broken just because of the new transform buff because they would nerf her individual sides in specific ways so that transforming becomes a necessary element of her playstyle. And, no one would be upset about these nerfs because the amazing work ryoko and zhime have done perfecting their individual sides would be preserved in the stand alone versions.

Stand Alone Zelda and Sheik:

Stand alone zelda could be her skyward sword version, whereas stand a lone sheik could be skyward sword impa. This actually makes sense since in that game, zelda and the sheik-like character are different people anyways. I know skyward sword zelda is kinda ugly, but her alternate costume would be the white dress she has towards the end, which I think is actually pretty. Plus, if you still hated it that's what brawl vault textures are for. Impa's alternate costume could be her version from ocarina of time. Also, I realize that skyward sword was made after brawl so maybe there's a legal issue about having characters from that game appear in P:M, so in that case, stand alone Zelda could just be from twilight princess, which would still make sense since she doesn't transform into sheik in that game anyway. Sheik would then be Impa from OoT with an alternative costume of Brawl Sheik.

The new down b move for Sheik/Impa is a little bit of an issue since they could just give her nothing and she'd still be top tier, so whatever she got couldn't be too good, but then what would be the point of giving her a purposfully bad move? But here are some of my ideas for the new down b:
1) Some type of shield like move like impa uses in skyward sword when she battles ghirahim a the temple of time.
2) A down b jump similar to zss.
Regarding the shield like move, I was thinking that rather than having it end up like another nayru's love, what it could do is clank any move but have very specific timing, maybe 2-3 frames. That way the reward is really good, but it wouldn't be game breaking because it would be very hard to use. Just an idea.
And about the down b jump, it would be filling in a little for shiek's sudden loss of recovery by not being able to transform into zelda. Although, sheik's crappy recovery is an important weakness, so it would have to be a shorter and less versatile jump than zss's. If they went with another move than a recovery down b, then I think her side b should actually tether the edge, that way they'd be giving her chain another use while only marginally buffing sheik's recovery.

For Zelda, the new down b move could be something like making dins fire detonate on command or be the light arrows. Either of these options would be useful because it would increase her defensive capabilities at a distance, which is important for her terrible match ups against opponents like zard and fox/falco.

Down B detonation would be useful in that case because it couldn't be reflected by shine, and the dins fire mines could be made to stay out longer or indefinitely like snake's mines. Thus, increasing her combo game considerably.

Light Arrows would have a danger of ending up like pit's, which would just be boring. Instead, an option that would also be more true to canon would be having the light arrows stun the opponent like they do to ganon in OoT. This would allow her to punish campy spacies, while not being broken against them because if they reflected it at her, they could combo her to death. Against other characters though, I could see the stunning light arrows being too much of an advantage so perhaps it could have a very long cool time down like rob's lazers, and of course, they could be powershield reflected back too.

Another possible down b would draw from skyward sword. She could call her loft wing for a short glide and possible glide attack. This would help mix up her recovery a bit and allow her to get back to the ground a little safer, since she has such a hard time being juggled and regaining her footing versus marths and links.

Finally, I would personally rather see some sort of magic light based attack since her magical style is what attracts me to her in the first place. Also, pretty much in every appearence of her in the games, she's had some sort of light spell
 

drsusredfish

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
859
Location
North Carolina
I like zelda alot but two spots on the roster is a bit over kill just to get one new move. it would kind of be a waste of a clone spot. lol this ain't MvC2 we only have 7 spots to use.
 

Thanasiomedes

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 10, 2013
Messages
7
It seems like to me that it might be a good idea to somehow sync her transform ability into her teleport. That could possibly free up her down be and also give her a little more flexibility.

Edit: It'd also be pretty interesting if she adopted something like an aura charge from lucario that can be used to shorten/eliminate the time for transform.
 

GodAtHand

Smash Lord
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Dec 29, 2007
Messages
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Lawrence, MA
I support removal of Transform. Or if possible optional transform. You can choose to take Zelda/Sheik or take Zelda w/ a downB or Sheik w/ a downB
 

titaniachkt

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
67
Location
Not doing combos
@otheusrex: and others
The option to have Zelda/Sheik as separate characters, or a single one able to switch between both (how it is currently), sounds like the best compromise with everyone so far

Maybe Zhiek could be nerfed slightly, so you'd have to rely more on balancing their flaws and weaknesses, and the standalone counterparts could be left as is, or modified to reflect the loss of their Down-B ability
 

Pika_thunder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
112
Are you guys kidding me? I play shelda a lot and removing transform would be like removing fox's shine. They are both essential to the character.

To put this in to perspective of your Zelda exclusive minds.... Imagine ZSS and Samus. If they could willingly transform, they would be a more playable duo.

And plus removing transform is limiting how fun Zelda / Sheik is. And limiting fun is a job taken by Brawl. BRAWL!

I don't care what you say taking away this option might seem like a good thing to you, but think of people like me who like to vary their play styles mid-match.

DO NOT REMOVE TRANSFORM.

And before you say it, I AM MAD, bro.
 

Kerenthar

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
77
NNID
Radagast_DACC
@Pika_thunder get the point. Spliting character policy punish all playstyles that vary their movesets in mid-match. It is really a very complex way to play, put funny and rewarding.
Sheik is too powerful to give her a new down special, anyways. All work PMBR do to bring balance to the roster will be inevitably messed up.
I say NO too.
 

Kaeldiar

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
563
Location
MDVAiridian City
I play Sheilda…sort of. I typically just play one or the other, depending on who my opponent chooses. I don't usually switch between the two during battle. That being said, here's what I think:

Sheilda:
Leave as is, no changes

Sheik alone:
I'm going to quote otheusrex, "The new down b move for Sheik/Impa is a little bit of an issue since they could just give her nothing and she'd still be top tier, so whatever she got couldn't be too good, but then what would be the point of giving her a purposfully bad move?"
So you could…maybe give her a harp/ocarina? It could be a crappy sleep attack like Jiggs or heal a small amount of damage.

Zelda alone:
I really like the idea of light arrows. Change Nayru's Love to down-b, and add Light Arrows as neutral-b. If B is held down, you can change the launch angle at any angle up to 90˚ (or maybe less), at which point it fires very quickly in a straight line. It could do a small amount of damage with a little hitstun or maybe just paralyze like ZSS's laser. If that's the case though, it would have to be nerfed in some way, like reducing the speed or the angle possibilities.

Conclusion:
I think they're fine as is. It always irked me that so many people left Zelda in the dust for Sheik. Making them completely separate would buff the Sheik half at least a little, dropping Zelda even further. Zelda with good Light Arrows could be fun, but I'd much rather have the option to go Sheik.
 

JediLink

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
778
Location
QLD, Australia
I'm also a supporter of Shielda. I play both, so if I'm getting bodied I can always just switch to the other and see if it works any better.
 

otheusrex

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
342
I think most people will come to the conclusion that transform is gonna stay, so I'm gonna start talking about how to improve transform. Obviously, no loading time and thus a quicker transform would be ideal, but that's likely never going to happen because of technical issues, though there are other ways to improve transform.

Transform exploding dins, or as I'm christening it, TEDs, are a brilliant addition to transform, specifically because it gives people who main Zelda another Zelda technique to get the most out of her. If a Zelda main had a good sheik and they wanted the match up advantage that sheik gives them, then they probably would have selected sheik from the beginning of the match, so enticing Zelda players to transform mid-match with a Zelda-esque mechanic is right on the money.

Similarly, a Sheik player who has a decent Zelda and wanted to switch for the match up would likely just choose Zelda from the start, so Sheik also needs a similar mechanic targeted towards sheik players for them to want to transform. The 'jojo' (or hitting with a buffered aerial out of transform) isn't viable for numerous reasons, but also, it isn't a mechanic that a sheik player would want to use if they're seriously trying to win. Boost transform, however, is, but I think they can do more to reward mid-battle transformations:

Adding a hitbox to sheik's transform is dumb because firstly, it wouldn't look right, and secondly, a sheik main would rather hit and followup, and the loading time makes transform too slow for that.

A viable jojo, would be a start. It should function like one lengthy but seamless maneuver from the beginning of sheik's transform animation, all the way through to Zelda's endlag on her aerial. This would require the hitbox of zelda's aerial to come out on frame 1 after transform but the only way to accomplish this is to give post transform invinsibility frames, which effectively extend transform until the hitbox of the aerial. This would make the jojo function how it's intended, but I don't think a sheik player would be tempted to transform just to use it.

Making sheik's transform something that can be used to escape combos is the only thing I can think of that might tempt a sheik player to transform. They would need to speed up sheik's transform so that she got to the invisibility part of it, but rather than half-ass the design and leave it with that, they'd need to also consider how the entire maneuver of transform would function as a dodge. It wouldn't work to escape a combo, only to put yourself in a lengthy and predictable trajectory in which you're helpless during the start up of your aerial, so they'd need to combine the move with a viable jojo, or tweak how zelda's reappearence functions. If we're talking about making sheik's transform an escape move, maybe make the move only interruptable into her Up B but give it enough invisibility frames to cover her until she goes intangible (otherwise you've only extended your vulnerability for 33 frames further). I'm just throwing this out there.
 
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