Is Hole, Maze, and Bath official stages?

[Aeronite's Kiseki]

Since it came with Brawl and everyone has it. Should it be part of the other 41 stages?

 

[colored blind]

I disliked the levels and deleted them.

So no, not everyone has them. Since not everyone has them (and there is the potential for them to be deleted), I don't think they count as official stages.

 

[tense]

I disliked the levels and deleted them.

So no, not everyone has them. Since not everyone has them (and there is the potential for them to be deleted), I don't think they count as official stages.

Agreed. Although, on the subject of custom stages, maybe SBR could work on designing ones that can be official.

 

[2.72]

I would like to see a list of new stages that could be used in tournaments endorsed by the SBR. I'm less than confident that it can happen, but it would be nice. Maybe they could even make a few special stages for large tournaments that wouldn't be known publicly ahead of time.

 

[regorris]

I think that the only way a tournament could claim to be unbiased would be to make its own stage and post it to the internet so that people could get a few test runs on it.

It is sort of like how every sports team has a home field, every gambling tournament has its venue.

 

[Mic_128]

I touched on this in another thread, but when stage builder was announced we mentioned the idea of getting some custom stages and making them SBR aproved or whatever and having them uploaded somewhere with a time frame that after they can be used in tournies (of course have them up for a while so poeple can practise with them of course) but after the initial suggestion and brief discussion it got sidetracked. I'll be sure to bring it up again after the official stage list is up.

 

[Froth]

A true player should be able to play any level, anytime.

 

[colored blind]

Awesome. Thank you for addressing the topic question. Because, you know, that totally told us whether they're considered official or not.

Besides, while a good player should be able to play "any level, anytime", that doesn't mean any level should be in tournaments, and I think that's what Kiseki was getting at--whether or not these stages were legal in tourneys. I mean, unless you want to lose money in a tournament because my Fox gained a stock on you in Hyrule Temple and ran until time was up.

 

[Froth]

A skillful smash player should know which things to look out for. The only reason to ban a stage to me would be if the stage goes out of control, which isn't going to happen. There should be no reason why any levels should be banned.

 

[Ceruvik]

A skillful smash player should know which things to look out for. The only reason to ban a stage to me would be if the stage goes out of control, which isn't going to happen. There should be no reason why any levels should be banned.

Would you like to play in a stage full of nothing but trampolines? Or one where you're stuck in a pit(while others are over or below you battling)?

 

[Froth]

I wouldn't like to, but if I have to, then yeah.
How would I get stuck in a pit?
If I'm not there already, I would just avoid it.

 

[Trace_User500]

If someone made a stage with 4 cages, one for each player, that was impossible to get out of, I doubt you would play on it.

 

[Froth]

You can't do that.
It drops players off at the highest floor.

 

[RedMage8BT]

You can't do that.
It drops players off at the highest floor.

Not if you put spikes there.

Trust me, as someone who's designed nearly 100 stages, I can design stages that would severely gimp any pro to the point of skill not even mattering anymore.

As The Architect, those who play on my stages are under my complete control. If I say die, you die.

 

[nightwing2024]

Instead of trying to one-up VGamer with instances of "well what about this!" why not take his word sensibly? He means if a stage is basically even, and no one is trapped in some stupid cage or something, a player should be ready for anything. I hate when my friends say "we can't play there, it's not fair" to even the Brawl stages. Just deal with what's given to you.

 

[orintemple]

And this is how we can decipher the competitive players from the non.

In any case, a good stage that I think could be tourney legal is "the bridge" it is basically Bridge of Eldin with blocks at the ends to keep people from throwing you at the edge too easily for a kill and no bomb guy.

 

[Jackal478]

A skillful smash player should know which things to look out for. The only reason to ban a stage to me would be if the stage goes out of control, which isn't going to happen. There should be no reason why any levels should be banned.

We ban stages so the Smashers can have an equal plain. Say if I was Olimar or Ivysaur on the Ice Climber stage and I just so happen to lose the match because of the no-grab ledges on the bottom platform, when somebody like Metaknight can get on the platform 4 different ways that dont depend on ledges.

Is that very fair?

 

[Froth]

We ban stages so the Smashers can have an equal plain. Say if I was Olimar or Ivysaur on the Ice Climber stage and I just so happen to lose the match because of the no-grab ledges on the bottom platform, when somebody like Metaknight can get on the platform 4 different ways that dont depend on ledges.

Is that very fair?

Well, you should either avoid getting knocked far you can't land on the ground, or, be a better character.

 

[Jackal478]

Well, you should either avoid getting knocked far you can't land on the ground, or, be a better character.

But then that takes one Con and replaces it with another.

Alls that does is replace a bad recovery with a worse player, when you could just play on a stage where you can grab the ledges.

 

[GenoGar]

Sorta agree with VGamer here.

To win, you have to try to put everything to your advantage, whether it be spacing, or mindgames, or the stage itself. If grapple characters cant grab on some stages, then obviously it was intentionally put there as a weakness, otherwise it would let you. That would be a weakness on grapple recovery and your opponent's right to abuse it.

EVERY stage gives a character an advantage over the other, and grapple characters shouldn't be exempt. That's just how you counter pick.

Even more off topic, Olimar is a monster to begin with, just taking away one of the few weaknesses he has is absurd.

On Topic, a universal custom stage would be very difficult to distribute, wouldn't it?

 

[Prax]

Sorta agree with VGamer here.

To win, you have to try to put everything to your advantage, whether it be spacing, or mindgames, or the stage itself. If grapple characters cant grab on some stages, then obviously it was intentionally put there as a weakness, otherwise it would let you. That would be a weakness on grapple recovery and your opponent's right to abuse it.

EVERY stage gives a character an advantage over the other, and grapple characters shouldn't be exempt. That's just how you counter pick.

Even more off topic, Olimar is a monster to begin with, just taking away one of the few weaknesses he has is absurd.

On Topic, a universal custom stage would be very difficult to distribute, wouldn't it?

If you cant grab on the edge, Ivysaur, Zamus, and Olimar can just give up, it would be far too easy to edge guard them.

I dont think it's right to basically ban 3 characters from the stage, do you?

 

[colored blind]

*Sigh*

Have any of you purporting 'omg, every stage must legal, omg!' ever been to a tournament where a substantial amount of money is on the line? Yeah, didn't think so. I don't know about you, but I don't want to lose because Pictochat spawns a mine cart or spikes on top of me.

Well, you should either avoid getting knocked far you can't land on the ground, or, be a better character.

You just made me laugh because you're serious. "Avoid getting knocked off"? Are you kidding me? Just as getting knocked off the stage is an integral part of the game, so is the recovery. Recovery with Olimar is a very skillful part of the game that shouldn't be truncated just because someone wants to see the orange fish on The Summit. Not to mention the fish itself. A person can get KO'd at 0% with no warning at all because of it.

But then, arguing with you is probably next to moot, as you're not going to change your opinion, and I won't change mine. No one organizing a reputable tournament shares your opinion anyway, so I don't care that much either.

Thanks for successfully sidetracking the topic, VGamer.

On topic, I think that Bath, Hole, and Maze are terrible stages to be made tournament legal. If someone were to create a map for use in a tournament, they'd need to get a list of all the people going in advance, and make sure, through extensive playtesting, that it's already relatively fair, then subsequently send it to all those people a week or two before the tournament in order to practice. I don't think it can be a widespread thing, but it could work for local stuff.

 

[Froth]

I think the Sample Maze level was well-done.

 

[Prax]

Meh, I didn't like the Maze level much. Of the 3, my favorite was Bath. You can pull off some pretty nice combos from bouncing them off of the walls if the miss a tech.

I don't think any of them should be tourney legal though.

 

[Unknownlight]

Going back to the original question, if the game gives you an option to delete the stage, then it's not an official stage. It's as simple as that.

Besides, I already deleted all three levels.

 

[Froth]

Going back to the original question, if the game gives you an option to delete the stage, then it's not an official stage. It's as simple as that.

Besides, I already deleted all three levels.

Well, if you can delete them, same goes for hidden levels.
What if you don't have any of them?

 

[Prax]

Well, if you can delete them, same goes for hidden levels.
What if you don't have any of them?

Name one competitive player that does not have all stages unlocked. (Besides, the tournaments always have all stages)

 

[Froth]

I don't have all the stages but one. And, I'm too lazy to get it.

 

[Unknownlight]

Well, if you can delete them, same goes for hidden levels.
What if you don't have any of them?

If you don't have a certain hidden stage then it's still possible to play on it. All you have to do is unlock it. Once it's unlocked, there's always the possibility to play on it, because it's in your stage select screen. You may never play on it, but it's still possible to play on it.

On the other hand, if you delete Hole, Maze, or Bath then it's impossible to play on it again. There is no possible way. If there is no possible way to play on it, then it can't be an official stage. Sure, you can recreate it on stage builder, but it's only a recreation. Not the original. It is not the actual stage. It's like saying that Great Bay is a stage in Brawl because you made it in stage builder. It is not the same stage, no matter how accurate it is to the original design.

For reasons above, Hole, Maze, and Bath are not official stages.

 

[deepseadiva]

Well, if you can delete them, same goes for hidden levels.
What if you don't have any of them?

Ah VGamer, as horribly, HORRIBLY wrong as you are, your seemingly-correct counter-logic is something to applaud. *claps*


Anyways, sample stages official? Nope, for reasons already stated.

 

[Froth]

Ah VGamer, as horribly, HORRIBLY wrong as you are, your seemingly-correct counter-logic is something to applaud. *claps*


Anyways, sample stages official? Nope, for reasons already stated.

yay

 

[SU_Remo]

I hate the sample stages. Because of 'Random', Hole was the first stage I played for Brawl. Ugh.

I deleted them as soon as could.

 

[Froth]

I hate the sample stages. Because of 'Random', Hole was the first stage I played for Brawl. Ugh.

I deleted them as soon as could.

What a waste of a perfectly good level.

 

[WarxePB]

I am of the opinion that Stage Builder stages will become a standard in tournaments. I'm not sure if they will be the only thing used, or if some standard SB stages will supplement the neutral stages in the game (Battlefield, FD, Smashville), but Stage Builder stages have the potential to be a lot more neutral than anything in the game.

 

[OddCrow]

Vgamer, if you are about 1/2 sec away from using falco's Forward+B and the stage on spear pillar flips, is that fair? does that show skill/lack-of skill for either player? no. Therefore, Spear Pillar = BANNED

if SBR is interested, I have many fair, unique stages that I've created.

 

[Froth]

Vgamer, if you are about 1/2 sec away from using falco's Forward+B and the stage on spear pillar flips, is that fair? does that show skill/lack-of skill for either player? no. Therefore, Spear Pillar = BANNED

if SBR is interested, I have many fair, unique stages that I've created.

Well, then you're screwed. And, once you make that mistake, you shouldn't make it again. You should know which pokemon does which when it is atop the stage. There's no reason for it to be banned. Furthermore, what effect would that do to you? You'd still be going in the same direction...

 

[OddCrow]

I think you misunderstood me, say you are flying off the stage, and a SPLIT second before you hit forward+B the stage flips, no human is fast enough to react and switch directions, so, you do Forward B and die. You are DEAD, through NO fault of your own. also, I get trapped underneath the bottom of the "don't move" minigame on warioware all the time, and die.

 

[0RLY]

Tournament stages are meant to create the fairest enviroment for two players to test their skill against one another. If a stage could shift an advantage to a player, then it would be deemed illegal in tournaments. This is also why items are banned.

For example: Marth vs. Samus on Hanenbow. Samus's tether recovery and projectile game is screwed in such a stage. The leaves block projectiles and can be angled to prevent tethers from working.

Also, you select stages after you select your character. Just because you ended up as Olimar on Frigate Orpheon doesn't mean you can change your character because the stage works against you by having only one ledge availible for tethering. Plus even if you counter-pick and win, your opponent gets to do the same next match.

We make certain stages legal so that it gives every character even advantages and disadvantages. This way, characters that are limited in different ways can still use their advantages to their fullest potential. We wouldn't want everybody to use Marth, Shiek, and Falco again like in melee, right?

Battlefield is a prime example of a good stage. There are no hazards and each and every character can use it's platforms and ledges to their fullest potential. Other stages such as Battleship Halberd, do have hazards, but they are so easy to avoid, it's over looked.

Also, I approve of what MenoUnderwater said in the last page. You are putting up a good argument, though a false one in the eyes of us competitive smashers.

EDIT: @ above post: OMG! I thought that was just a one-time glitch! So someone else has experienced it too, and not just me.
Also, Wario Ware is banned because it randomly grants invinciblity. How gay is that?

 

[Froth]

I think you misunderstood me, say you are flying off the stage, and a SPLIT second before you hit forward+B the stage flips, no human is fast enough to react and switch directions, so, you do Forward B and die. You are DEAD, through NO fault of your own. also, I get trapped underneath the bottom of the "don't move" minigame on warioware all the time, and die.

You still go the same direction. If you go left, you go the stage's left when it's upside down, so you would be safe. It doesn't go opposite directions, just changes the way you see the level.

 

[tanfastic]

I think you misunderstood me, say you are flying off the stage, and a SPLIT second before you hit forward+B the stage flips, no human is fast enough to react and switch directions, so, you do Forward B and die. You are DEAD, through NO fault of your own. also, I get trapped underneath the bottom of the "don't move" minigame on warioware all the time, and die.

Then you are not very good at all if those two minor things kill you, I am always ready and have only died once on Spear Pillar because of that. I agree with Vgamer any stage that isn't absolutely ubsurd shouldn't be banned I like very few of you like Hole, Maze, and Bath and use them in my tournaments at my own house and they work out fine (along with spear pillar)