is hitstun the same for all characters?

[Camsterchief]

can't tell if there's longer hitstun for certain people, or it's the difference in floatiness that makes it seem other wise

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ok, so I believe that hitstun is calculated using a value that is then multiplied for the amount of knockback received (x0.4 I believe, so getting hit by something that knocks your character 100 units would put you in 40 frames of hitstun).

Since lower weight = getting knocked back harder, I would have to assume that if Zelda lightning kicks a Pichu and a Bowser on the same (high) percentage that Pichu would suffer significantly more hitstun than Bowser would.

I'm pretty sure this is how it works. =P

 

[SAUS]

Ok, so I believe that hitstun is calculated using a value that is then multiplied for the amount of knockback received (x0.4 I believe, so getting hit by something that knocks your character 100 units would put you in 40 frames of hitstun).

Since lower weight = getting knocked back harder, I would have to assume that if Zelda lightning kicks a Pichu and a Bowser on the same (high) percentage that Pichu would suffer significantly more hitstun than Bowser would.

I'm pretty sure this is how it works. =P

I believe this is correct, but I think there is another force at work that is kind of hidden - gravity. Different characters have different weights, but they also have different fall speeds. Due to his fast falling speed, hitting a fox upwards will make him appear to be stunned longer than other characters - particularly floaty ones.

A big distinction here is floaty vs heavy. Samus is one of the heaviest characters in the game, but is one of the most floaty characters as well. Floatiness is not determined by the character's weight, but by their fall speed. Characters with lower fall speed will appear to get out of hit stun sooner because the attack that would send a faster falling character to a given height would actually be hitting them harder. Essentially, their fall speed makes them go less high from the attack, but doesn't modify their hit stun duration. This is why floaty characters are a lot harder to combo, and why someone might think that floaty characters straight up have less hit stun than other characters.

 

[xCardiac]

I believe this is correct, but I think there is another force at work that is kind of hidden - gravity. Different characters have different weights, but they also have different fall speeds. Due to his fast falling speed, hitting a fox upwards will make him appear to be stunned longer than other characters - particularly floaty ones.

A big distinction here is floaty vs heavy. Samus is one of the heaviest characters in the game, but is one of the most floaty characters as well. Floatiness is not determined by the character's weight, but by their fall speed. Characters with lower fall speed will appear to get out of hit stun sooner because the attack that would send a faster falling character to a given height would actually be hitting them harder. Essentially, their fall speed makes them go less high from the attack, but doesn't modify their hit stun duration. This is why floaty characters are a lot harder to combo, and why someone might think that floaty characters straight up have less hit stun than other characters.

If this is true, does that mean L-Canceling an aerial when it hits a shield would have a different timing for all different characters? Or is hitstun on a shield the same for everyone?

 

[Bones0]

If this is true, does that mean L-Canceling an aerial when it hits a shield would have a different timing for all different characters? Or is hitstun on a shield the same for everyone?

It depends on how high you aerial. If you aerial their shield one frame before you hit the ground, obviously they will land at the same time. If you hit their shield higher up, the difference in gravity will make a the fast faller land faster. If you've ever done race to the finish, you can tell a huge difference when falling through the one tunnel.


Also, I think hitstun isn't weight-based for throws. I think they are all %-based, but I'm not sure on the mechanics behind that. I just know throws work differently.

 

[Yeroc]

Aerodome is right. Hitstun is based linearly on knockback. Everything in this game is tied to knockback (think of it as a computation of how "hard" you're hit), which is partly based on a character's weight but uses a constant value in place of weight for throws. Throws actually have dynamic release points based on weight though. So characters with higher weight receive less hitstun. Hitlag, which is how long you freeze when you land a hit on someone (or their shield), is important when talking about L-cancel timings and is a different thing entirely.

Knockback is a kind of momentum, it isn't applied all at once, but rather over a duration of time. That's where the weird momentum boosts with techrolls and ADs come from. Gravity interacts with the vertical component of this knockback momentum, so when your momentum is equal to your fallspeed, that is when you reach the top of an arc when you get hit. This is why fallspeed is more important than weight in vertical kb than horizontal kb.

 

[phish-it]

Certain throws ignore weight while others do not. If the character throwing throws slower or faster depending on the character being thrown then the throw is weight dependent. If the character throws all characters the same speed then it ignores weight.

For example Peach's forward throw ignores weight so both Pichu and Bowser get sent the same distance (pretty sure all of Peach's thows ignore weight. Marth's throws on the other hand are all influenced by weight I believe.

 

[Strong Badam]

All throws assume weight 100 (Mario/Luigi/Doc) for KB calculation. Weight dependency on throws is throw animation speed only and nothing else.

 

[phish-it]

Ah, I stand corrected then.

 

[TylerX5]

Okay let me make this simple. A mario throws a fox, a sheik, and a jiggly who are all at 30% with a back-throw over the ledge. Do all characters experience the same amount of hitstun frames?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Okay let me make this simple. A mario throws a fox, a sheik, and a jiggly who are all at 30% with a back-throw over the ledge. Do all characters experience the same amount of hitstun frames?

Yes because throws assume the weight of 100.

 

[Encephalon Decay]

Hitstun is based on the attack itself, otherwise chances are wobbling wouldn't work on pichu (I'm 98% sure it does. I haven't actually tried it.)

Knockback is based on % and character weight. The speed of input-to-throw-release is based on the throw itself and character weight (try the same throw on a bowser and pichu if you don't understand what I mean.)

I think that about covers everything.

 

[SAUS]

Hitstun is based on the attack itself, otherwise chances are wobbling wouldn't work on pichu (I'm 98% sure it does. I haven't actually tried it.)

Knockback is based on % and character weight. The speed of input-to-throw-release is based on the throw itself and character weight (try the same throw on a bowser and pichu if you don't understand what I mean.)

I think that about covers everything.

Hitstun is based on knockback. I am not 100% sure on the specifics of wobbling or what happens when you get hit while being grabbed, but it's the combination of the pummelling and Nana's attack that cause the victim to be unable to escape.

Knockback is based on %, character weight, and also some hidden numbers that the attack has (base knockback and scaling knockback - the part that changes how far they go based on damage).

Only some throws are affected like that. Falcon's down-throw is like that, but Peach's up-throw is not.

 

[Encephalon Decay]

Hitstun is based on knockback. I am not 100% sure on the specifics of wobbling or what happens when you get hit while being grabbed, but it's the combination of the pummelling and Nana's attack that cause the victim to be unable to escape.

The way wobbling works is that the enemy is actually stuck in hitstun; you can't escape from a grab during hitstun, and the attacks used happen to keep the enemy in constant hitstun. That logic is why I assumed hitstun is based on the attack itself. Perhaps I worded it poorly, but I meant that in the sense that however hitstun works, it doesn't have to do with the target being struck, but the calculations have to do solely with factors of the one doing the attack, not the targets weight as some assumed above. My proof for this is if you watch Wobbled EVO match vs. Hungrybox, he does get a wobble off despite puff being an extreme lightweight, and yet I can tell you from experience that wobbling is possible on a bowser; characters of a large weight class difference.

Of course, I do admit that I could be wrong. I'm not 100% sure, and it's speculation on my part based on other factors.

I do see what you mean about throws though, that's my mistake for sure.

 

[TylerX5]

Horizontal Knockback is based on Weight, Vertical knockback is based on Fallspeed. That's why Samus can be killed by the ceiling much sooner than a wall

 

[Strong Badam]

Horizontal Knockback is based on Weight, Vertical knockback is based on Fallspeed. That's why Samus can be killed by the ceiling much sooner than a wall

no. both are affected by both. falling speed and knockback function effectively as vectors.
for a vertically sending attack, you have two forces occurring:

Spoiler: magic

|
v
falling speed

^
|

knockback

for a horizontally sending attack (for the purposes of this lazy text-based illustration we'll assume the trajectory is 45 which like 90% of moves that don't send upwards send at anyway), you ALSO have tow forces occurring:

Spoiler: magic again

|
v
falling speed

an arrow tip going upwards and to the right
/
knockback

this is why falling speed is generally considered to be a main contributing factor to vertical kb. in reality, it does not have any affect on the knockback, it is simply a force that acts against it.


weight determines the kb EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF THROWS AND IN ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CASE, AT ALL, in which case weight is assumed by the game to be 100 (NTSC mario/luigi/doc) regardless of victim.

 

[TylerX5]

Thanks man your explanation clears up for me, and haha I think we just proved Cunningham's law http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law

 

[TylerX5]

So the # of Hitstun frames is equal is KB (which for non-throws is only effected by weight) multiplied by .4 (how is it rounded up?).

Another question: If someone DIs opposite to the KB vector does that reduce KB there for also reducing Hitstun?

Another other question: How exactly do weight values effect KB?

 

[SAUS]

So the # of Hitstun frames is equal is KB (which for non-throws is only effected by weight) multiplied by .4 (how is it rounded up?).

Another question: If someone DIs opposite to the KB vector does that reduce KB there for also reducing Hitstun?

Another other question: How exactly do weight values effect KB?

1) I am not really sure what you are asking. KB is based on the move, and the weight and damage of the victim of the attack.
2) DI only affects the angle, not the KB. If you DI directly opposite of the KB vector, it is the equivalent of no DI.
3) Not sure exactly, but it's along the lines of divide the KB by the weight.

 

[TylerX5]

1. Hitstun lasts for a certain # of frames (the game runs at 60 frames per second), which is determined by KB units mutiplied by .4 (so a move that deals 100 KB units would be multiplied by .4 to give us 40 frames of Hitstun), What I was asking was in cases where KB units multiplied by .4 give produces product with a decimal how is it rounded up

2. So you're saying unlike falling speed DI doesn't count as a vector that affects KB. What about when you DI in the same direction as the KB vector, doesn't that add to the KB vector?

3.I'm looking for more exact details

 

[SAUS]

1. Hitstun lasts for a certain # of frames (the game runs at 60 frames per second), which is determined by KB units mutiplied by .4 (so a move that deals 100 KB units would be multiplied by .4 to give us 40 frames of Hitstun), What I was asking was in cases where KB units multiplied by .4 give produces product with a decimal how is it rounded up

2. So you're saying unlike falling speed DI doesn't count as a vector that affects KB. What about when you DI in the same direction as the KB vector, doesn't that add to the KB vector?

3.I'm looking for more exact details

Ah. I am not sure for 1 and 3, then. Sorry. For 2, you only change the angle that the KB sends you. DI is not its own force. If you DI the same angle you are sent, it is the same as no DI. For maximum influence with your DI, you want to choose an angle that is perpendicular to the angle you would normally be launched at.

 

[Kadano]

1. Hitstun lasts for a certain # of frames (the game runs at 60 frames per second), which is determined by KB units mutiplied by .4 (so a move that deals 100 KB units would be multiplied by .4 to give us 40 frames of Hitstun), What I was asking was in cases where KB units multiplied by .4 give produces product with a decimal how is it rounded up

It’s rounded down.

2. So you're saying unlike falling speed DI doesn't count as a vector that affects KB. What about when you DI in the same direction as the KB vector, doesn't that add to the KB vector?

Trajectory DI only affects the angle of the knockback vector (±17.5° or so), not its size. SDI directly affects your position.

3.I'm looking for more exact details

http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/