Is Bowsercide still Viable? (A Strategy Discussion)

[OmegaSorin]

So there have probably been tons of threads like this ever since the update of Bowsercide, but I wanted to discuss this a bit in depth with the people who play Bowser. Earlier today I played against a friend from a chatroom I frequent, he was playing Mario and I was playing Bowser cause I wanted to. It was 3 stock, and he had me on the run and had me up to like 150% damage, and I only had him on about 45% because I was being sluggish and slow. So I decided to Bowsercide him to re-even us out at 0% with two stock left. The battle went on and I picked up my game for the next stock and KO'd him with Bowser's F-Smash. Alright, so now it was a stock match of 2 stock v 1 stock. He began picking up his game and despite it all began hammering my arse with skill he didn't have before. So i made a judgement call and bowsercided him again killing both of us, but since I had 2 and he had 1, it was a win for me instead of him.

So that brought up the question in my mind, how strategic and viable is Bowsercide exactly? How would a professional, or main bowser, utilize the Bowsercide in comparison to his or her other formations and moves? In my personal opinion in both a professional and casual setting bowsercide still has extremely strategic and viable use, especially when you have a life you can just throw away. In my opinion correct bowsercide use can be a defining moment in a battle. So what about you main Bowser players, what are your opinions on this?

 

[Steam]

I don't risk it at all, as of last patch on most stages your opponents get an opportunity to recover, and most characters can.

 

[Ranias]

Bowsercide is controllable based on percentage. I don't know the exact stats on it, but whoever has the least amount of damage has more control over where the slam goes. In Smash 4, it gives more control based on how big the difference in percentage is.

Against top level players, I have no doubt that they would know this information. The current nerf to Bowsercide limits its usefulness to only when you have a stock lead against a character that can't recover from it.

You never want to Bowsercide on your last life most of all. The opponent can even purposefully kill you out of it.

 

[Netherfall]

Don't use it ever. Its easy to recover from for most characters and results in your death. If anything, only Side B under these conditions:
1. Aerial mix up
2. Have the % lead
3. Far enough away from the edge so you won't fall even if they have control
4. Going off a hard read and don't have time to F-Smash.

 

[Jerodak]

I feel like the short answer for now is no. A good chunk of characters without customs can make it back after jumping out of it, making it risky even with a stock lead and they can control where you go. Basically all the advantages given to Bowser before have been given to his opponent, and those advantages were what made it viable in the first place. If you do manage to end a game with one, or if you manage to get use out of it, then great! Generally though, it's not a great option at all. The side B itself is still useful though, but this does hurt it's utility.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, it doesn't seem so bad until you do it and your opponent lives. Worse is if you DON'T want to do it and your opponent forces you to do it and lives.

Even before the "nerf" (more of a new bug because Bowser dying first or the game resulting in sudden death if it's last stock for both parties is based entirely on the stage you're on), Klaw was and is an extremely situational move at best. It has the same range as Standing Grab and Bowser Bomb, isn't any faster than either of them (need frame data to confirm or deny, but if there is a difference its negligible) does LESS damage than Bowser Bomb and making use of Bowser's amazing Pivot Grab extends the range far beyond Klaw's range and is way safer.

You can't even argue Klaw's use against shields because Bomb has the strong potential to break them. Aerial Klaw isn't good either because anyone shielding on the ground with an airborne Bowser to take advantage of is either bad or possibly Little Mac.

 

[Flayl]

Crud, there was a list I saw some time ago on Reddit of the characters that could make it back. And now I can't find it.

I'd say it's still good to use if you have a stock lead against characters that aren't on the list.

EDIT: FOUND IT!

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2mptty/list_of_character_that_can_recover_after_bowsers/

I wanted to see who could truly turn my own move against me, so me and a friend of mine did a bit of testing this evening, and here are the results.

The testing was done on Gerudo Valley's omega form, and when customs were necessary we tried using the one that went highest. We also used walljumps for the characters that have that ability.

• Luigi with custom Down B (doesn't need walljump)
• Wario with custom Up B (or with the fart i suppose)
• Game&Watch with custom Up B
• Sheik without customs (with walljump)
• Toon link with custom Up B (very close without, must use a walljump)
• Pit&DPit without customs
• Kirby without customs
• Dedede without customs
• Falco without customs (with walljump)
• Pikachu without customs
• Lucario without customs, walljump needed only if less than 10% damage, if higher walljump not required
• Greninja without customs
• Duck Hunt without customs (with walljump)
• ROB without customs
• Captain Falcon without customs (with walljump)
• Villager without customs
• Olimar without customs, even with 3 pikmins (we tested even 3 purple pikmin to be sure there wasn't some hidden weight stat)
• Wii Fit Trainer without customs, albeit it requires heavy smashing and a walljump. Hurricane hoop can do it without walljump.
• Shulk without customs, but needs the jump art and is still hard to do.
• Pacman without custom
• Megaman witouth custom (with walljump), with customs there is no need to walljump
• Sonic without custom (with walljump)

 

[B!squick]

Thats an annoyingly long list.

 

[OmegaSorin]

It really is an Annoyingly long list...

 

[Ranias]

Plus, some stages on WiiU go to sudden death rather than kill Bowser first. I wouldn't really mind if they always go to SD.

The Bowsercide nerf is all kinds of broken. I think we should petition Nintendo.

 

[Anragon]

What if Bowsercide was only a situational option and we actually don't need it.

Anyway, list of chars are pretty obvious *coughLil'Maccough*

 

[S_B]

I try to avoid klawing much at all because of how huge of a liability it can be to do so.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I just use Klaw as a definite kill move on the stage.

 

[MrEh]

Bowserciding was never viable. If you Bowsercided someone and won the game, that means you either seriously outplayed them offstage or you were gonna win the match anyway.

 

[S_B]

Bowserciding was never viable. If you Bowsercided someone and won the game, that means you either seriously outplayed them offstage or you were gonna win the match anyway.

I'm worried less about Bowserciding and more about the klaw being used against me, even from the center of the stage (or near it).

I've seen many an even match in which a Bowser player is high in damage but still manages to KO his opponent for the win. That's the kind of situation where a klaw can get you killed.

 

[MrEh]

To be fair, that's a situation where anything can get you killed. Rage Bowser is stupid strong.

 

[MagiusNecros]

To be fair, that's a situation where anything can get you killed. Rage Bowser is stupid strong.

I've killed people in Rage mode with Klaw when they were at like 97% or a little above 100%. Which isn't even close to the usual 130% mark for the middle weight characters.

 

[B!squick]

Bowserciding was never viable. If you Bowsercided someone and won the game, that means you either seriously outplayed them offstage or you were gonna win the match anyway.

True facts. Tis why the patch made me froth with so much anger. Will they just decrease all of Bowser's damage next when the kiddies keep losing to Bowser anyway?

Found this clip while searching for a video to accurately illustrate my anger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMEq1mGpP5A

 

[S_B]

To be fair, that's a situation where anything can get you killed. Rage Bowser is stupid strong.

True, but I just worry about the ability being used against me.

I'm guessing (hoping) this is all a moot point and they'll soon be fixing it so that both players die when they hit the bottom of the screen.

Though, I'd rather Bowser just goes up and then down in the same place but I doubt that'll happen.

And for those who might not know, you can hit other players with the slam now (on the way down) and it can actually KO...

 

[B!squick]

@ S_B Also how it worked in Brawl.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I think it was a pretty good idea to nerf klaw. Bowser was way too OP before.

 

[B!squick]

I think it was a pretty good idea to nerf klaw. Bowser was way too OP before.

Yeah, he can actually win instead of sucking all the ass in the room. A nerf was needed to a move that barely functioned in the first place.

 

[S_B]

@ S_B Also how it worked in Brawl.

Well, yeah, except that the person you took down with you didn't get a chance to jump back to the stage afterwards.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I hope that v1.0.5 fixes thebroken Bowsercide. The move is now a liability and I use it when my opponent does not expect it. Heck, I've started using Bowser Bomb more now. And D-air spike is the new Bowsercide.

 

[S_B]

I hope that v1.0.5 fixes thebroken Bowsercide. The move is now a liability and I use it when my opponent does not expect it. Heck, I've started using Bowser Bomb more now. And D-air spike is the new Bowsercide.

And it actually WORKS...

 

[Big Sean]

I think bowsercide is being heavily underestimated in this thread. First if you look closely at the list you'll see that without customs only 11 characters can actually recover. Thats 4/5ths of the roster that can't recover at all. Of those 11, 6 of the characters need walljumps, meaning that in some stages they can't even recover. In addition some of these recoveries require perfect timing and are pretty character. As a wii fit main, I certainly wouldn't prioritize learning how to recover from a bowsercide, which is 1 mediocre move from a mid tier character of the 51 characters.

From a mixup perspective that value of the bowsercide is that it's a grab. There are heavy shielding players out there, that i've bowsercided 4 times in a row. This works especially after you've conditioned an opponent to constantly shield grabbing. short hop/jump bowsercide is a mixup I use against characters that spam from far away.

Also remember that it's a grab that kills, sometimes at low percents. I've killed light characters at ~105% with a simple to execute command grab. For a character at ~145% It's an almost guaranteed KO that can be easier to pull off than a lot of Bowser's slower kill moves.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser's Flying Slam can kill light-mid weight characters at 100% when he has rage. So yeah.

 

[B!squick]

@ Big Sean Pivot Grab is also a grab, has more range and is safer. And if you want a move that kills, Bomb is better. The best part about both of these is that there's zero risk of your opponent killing you with them.

The only thing Smash 4 Klaw does that you can't find a better substitute for is that it's an aerial grab, but since they have to be practically inside your colon for it to land it's worthless in that regard, too.

 

[Big Sean]

I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but why is there zero risk of your opponent killing you with bowser bomb? Isn't bowser bomb basically bowser's most punishable move, and incredibly easy to dodge by just about anyone? I'm genuinely interested in the answer because i've been struggling with making that move work at all.

Also which throw kills people from 105%->145%?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but why is there zero risk of your opponent killing you with bowser bomb? Isn't bowser bomb basically bowser's most punishable move, and incredibly easy to dodge by just about anyone? I'm genuinely interested in the answer because i've been struggling with making that move work at all.

We're talking about the grounded bomb, which has a hit box going up. Next time someone does something punishable (landing lag on an aerial or roll into you), try doing grounded bomb. Compare to if you had used side b in the same situation. Similar start up and initial range, but a big gap in reward. Yes, missing a klaw won't lead to a Luigi SHORYUKEN like a bomb would, but that's why you don't use grounded bomb unless you see that opening. Make the most of your punishes.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I feel like the hitbox of Klaw should be as large as where Bowser's hand actually goes. And that if you land a Aerial Klaw you have complete control and armor on the slam since in FFA anything can knock you out of it. Mainly because an aerial klaw is hard to land in the first place. But I'd be fine with just fixing a hitbox so the grab doesn't whiff despite being right in front of thing.

I like my Dash grabs and Pivot grabs but I do adore the slam very much.

 

[1FC0]

Good thing they balanced out this move.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Good thing they balanced out this move.

If by balance you mean having a crap hitbox to land. Little control on where you go if the opponent has lower percent then you(and they will if they are a speedy you can't hit me you fatty player) and off the stage ends in your death/a lost stock no matter what you do with either you and your opponent die(which you die first despite being on top of your opponent. Because that makes sense.) or you die and your opponent lives.

All for 18% damage and a kill range from 90% to 150% depending on if you have Rage and factoring in a character's Weight Class.

Then yeah it's pretty balanced.

 

[cot(θ)]

I've actually baited the Klaw against Bowsers on FG, and used it to finish their last stock.

I don't think a skilled Bowser would ever fall for that, though.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I've actually baited the Klaw against Bowsers on FG, and used it to finish their last stock.

I don't think a skilled Bowser would ever fall for that, though.

The best bowsers also take the biggest risks. Zigsta and MrEh have balls of steel, but the cunning wits to make it all work. Always be prepared, my friend.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The best bowsers also take the biggest risks. Zigsta and MrEh have balls of steel, but the cunning wits to make it all work. Always be prepared, my friend.

Yeah making a big move that could make you regret it can make or break the entire match which can make people go WTF and yet make you feel good for doing it at the same time. And the more damage you take you can easily cheese a win just by punching someone in the face. Because Bowser Rage.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I Bowsercided today on our last stocks and got a sudden death. Isn't the opponent supposed to get the win? During the fall I was constantly jumping and and trying to UpB like in Brawl so maybe that had something to do with it?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I Bowsercided today on our last stocks and got a sudden death. Isn't the opponent supposed to get the win? During the fall I was constantly jumping and and trying to UpB like in Brawl so maybe that had something to do with it?

It's actually random between same time death(you die first) and you die but your opponent lives and can try to recover.

Meta Knight will always recover.

 

[MrEh]

All Bowser players go for risky crap.

A bad Bowser player throws out risky stuff and hopes his opponent runs into it. A good Bowser players throws out risky stuff and tricks their opponent into running into it.

 

[Zigsta]

All Bowser players go for risky crap.

A bad Bowser player throws out risky stuff and hopes his opponent runs into it. A good Bowser players throws out risky stuff and tricks their opponent into running into it.

This.

If you're a Bowser main, you're throwing out risky crap just by picking him.