Is across-the-board low landing lag on aerials really necessary?

[Bladeviper]

I wouldn't say excessive landing lag makes defensive options better so much as it stagnates the approach possibilities.

Players will adapt to it over time, but not necessarily in positive ways; gravitating to certain cast members less restricted by it, more selective use of characters' move-sets, increase in similar play-styles. It's not a guaranteed outcome, but the odds of this playing out do increase with higher landing lag.

i mean thats kind of a given in fighting games though, the better characters get picked more often, its not just something that happens in smash, also you can't really say it does not happen in smash now. While some outliers exist we see the same few characters being played most of the time

 

[JV5Chris]

i mean thats kind of a given in fighting games though, the better characters get picked more often, its not just something that happens in smash, also you can't really say it does not happen in smash now. While some outliers exist we see the same few characters being played most of the time

It does, my point was more or less that landing lag is a big factor with it.

I just don't think it needs to be across the board. The problem in my view with doing that is that the higher kill potential moves suddenly have no downside to them and that is a problem imo

Could you point us to a move in particular you think falls under this category? Ideally from Melee, given landing lag can be cut in half.

 

[Bladeviper]

It does, my point was more or less that landing lag is a big factor with it.


Could you point us to a move in particular you think falls under this category? Ideally from Melee, given L-canceling cuts landing lag in half.

in 4 while we have not seen it i think something like robin's levin sword aerial should have some lag on it since its purpose it to get a ko. Things that are clearly meant to have high ko power i think need to be punishable in some way as for melee i can't say since its been a long time since ive played it since my copy got swiped

 

[JV5Chris]

in melee or smash 4? cause in 4 while we have not seen it i think something like robin's levin sword aerial should have some lag on it since its purpose it to get a ko. Things that are clearly meant to have high ko power i think need to be punishable in some way

I was more looking for a reference of something we've all played.

Just want an existing example of what you're alluding to as a problem with scaling back landing lag on heavier aerial attacks.

 

[Beats]

It would be truly interesting if more ground moves didn't give much vertical knockback, but rather more horizontal angles. I kind of stated that in my previous post, but this is more of a facet to that. You could have more pure ground-based combos that weren't chaingrabs, and since SDI seems less apparent in this game, it's interesting to think about. But we'll see if that actually happens haha.

You guys are also making me think of custom moves now. If some moves have less landing lag, that might make them more viable, potentially even abusable (think in the fashion of short hopped lasers). Again, this is a really speculative post, but just some stuff I thought would pique peoples' interest

Moves with horizontal knockback could either be DI'd up so that the player gets popped up anyway, or DI'd down so that any potential combo would just turn into a tech chase scenario. For ground combos to work the move would need to have almost no knockback so the opponent doesn't really move anywhere regardless. This is why ground combos have always been things like chaingrabs and tilts at low %.

 

[Jaedrik]

I just don't think it needs to be across the board. The problem in my view with doing that is that the higher kill potential moves suddenly have no downside to them and that is a problem imo

Ohh, I do see your point. However, I believe that regulating their range and startup frames, lasting frames, sour spot and sweet spot frames, are sufficient to balance around. For example, look at Falcon's Melee knee, or even better DK's Fair. DK's fair is powerful but he in general is not good nor is the move due to the time it takes to wind it up. Or even better an example, Link's dair! Aerial moves in general aren't super kill moves in the history of Smash, and they are generally well balanced against some other very powerful ground based kill moves such as Fox's upsmash or Falcon's elbow, or even Marth's tippered F-smash.

 

[Bladeviper]

I was more looking for a reference of something we've all played.

Just want an existing example of what you're alluding to as a problem with scaling back landing lag on heavier aerial attacks.

Ok to try and explain it better since im bad at it lol, with the high ko potential moves they can kinda be like a super or something in other games, the big hit kinda move that you don't just throw out. IMO if they lower the lag on these moves to the point where they can be used safely it can lead to as you said the stagnation of the moves. Why would i got for the weaker hit if i can safely throw my kill move out without being punished. That is my view on it anyway

Ohh, I do see your point. However, I believe that regulating their range and startup frames, lasting frames, sour spot and sweet spot frames, are sufficient to balance around. For example, look at Falcon's Melee knee, or even better DK's Fair. DK's fair is powerful but he in general is not good nor is the move due to the time it takes to wind it up. Or even better an example, Link's dair! Aerial moves in general aren't super kill moves in the history of Smash, and they are generally well balanced against some other very powerful ground based kill moves such as Fox's upsmash or Falcon's elbow, or even Marth's tippered F-smash.

while i do see your point, it seems that this time around air moves might have more ko potential with move characters having spikes and such, along with moves like bower's bair which seems really strong for ko'ing

 

[Senario]

Something slow isn't boring. (street fighter)

Street fighter isnt slow in general. You have people constantly trying to get in when people are playing footsies. When they do get a hit they lay on the combos and usually make the game end before timer is up. Maybe we are talking about vanilla street fighter 4 but ultra is in no way like that unless you are playing against grapple characters who will 50 50 you to death if you let them get close.

 

[TimeSmash]

Moves with horizontal knockback could either be DI'd up so that the player gets popped up anyway, or DI'd down so that any potential combo would just turn into a tech chase scenario. For ground combos to work the move would need to have almost no knockback so the opponent doesn't really move anywhere regardless. This is why ground combos have always been things like chaingrabs and tilts at low %.

How stupid am I to have forgot about DI in my post while still mentioning SDI haha? I definitely see your point though, you basically nailed what I was thinking though. Like ground moves with little knockback leading into other ground moves, although you'd probably need to input said moves quite fast, or buffer them. Or have like a ground equivalent of L-cancelling haha. And then being able to escape those combos after a certain percent/being able to DI them more after a certain percent (don't know how that would work, seems like a programming nightmare). But such an idea has more pores than a sponge, but it would be truly interesting to see more pure ground combos in general.

I don't know how I feel about having copious amounts of endlag on aerial kill moves. It's hard because some moves seem to already have their own faults, like the windup on DK or Peach's Fair, while other characters like Zelda or Sheik have pretty fast Forward Airs, and also not a lot of endlag to correspond. In either case, balancing moves in this game would require a reevaluation of every single character's aerial moves, their power and knockback as well. Then whoever is doing this reevaluating (let's say before the game comes out it's Sakurai, and after the game comes out it's some particularly motivated individual(s) with a penchant for hacking the Wii U) has to basically play God in deciding which aerials need more lag and which don't. They'd also have to consider how all these aerials work in correspondence to the opponent's percentage, somehow getting an average value of the effect of the aerial as it works at certain percentages in a cast of more than twenty characters. Tl;dr I'm kind of rambling in this post but deciding which moves should have more endlag than others based on their kill viability would be an arduous task to execute correctly, and would require intense perusing of the person/people willing to take on such a task. The end product would be quite intriguing however

 

[JV5Chris]

Ok to try and explain it better since im bad at it lol, with the high ko potential moves they can kinda be like a super or something in other games, the big hit kinda move that you don't just throw out. IMO if they lower the lag on these moves to the point where they can be used safely it can lead to as you said the stagnation of the moves. Why would i got for the weaker hit if i can safely throw my kill move out without being punished. That is my view on it anyway

I get the point you're trying to make, but most stronger aerials are just not that safe to begin with. Even when that landing lag is halved, they're still quite a bit more punishable than a most typical aerials. Startup frames, cool down frames, and additional landing lag is all still there.

Not saying that it can't be a potential problem if some move in the future is incredibly imbalanced, but this scenario you speak of, where people mostly spam heavy aerials, has never been a solid strategy. It's just a whole lot less effective in practice than you're probably picturing it.

 

[Bladeviper]

I get the point you're trying to make, but most stronger aerials are just not that safe to begin with. Even when that landing lag is halved, they're still quite a bit more punishable than a most typical aerials. Startup frames, cool down frames, and additional landing lag is all still there.

Not saying that it can't be a potential problem if some move in the future is incredibly imbalanced, but this scenario you speak of, where people mostly spam heavy aerials, has never been a working strategy. It's just a whole lot less effective in practice than you're probably picturing it.

probably, but who knows whats gonna happen with the full release

 

[Big-Cat]

Risk. Reward. Do you people know what that it is? There's a ****ing reason why they're doing this. Samus' DAir causes a ground bounce on a standing opponent. You realize how broken that move would be if it had reduced landing lag?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Risk. Reward. Do you people know what that it is? There's a ****ing reason why they're doing this. Samus' DAir causes a ground bounce on a standing opponent. You realize how broken that move would be if it had reduced landing lag?

This times a million.

This game is going to emphasize risk taking more so than the others did.

 

[Jaedrik]

Risk. Reward. Do you people know what that it is? There's a ****ing reason why they're doing this. Samus' DAir causes a ground bounce on a standing opponent. You realize how broken that move would be if it had reduced landing lag?

Doesn't it do this in Melee/PM?
I see no reason to be concerned about the balance.
If it were so, then, surely they would change Samus' DAir to compensate?
This seems like a shortsighted concern. Falcon's Stomp was not OP, for example.
Risk and reward isn't the only dichotomy at work here, as those two words to not strictly take into a count a number of balancing factors related to attacks in the Smash Bros. series.

 

[JV5Chris]

Risk. Reward. Do you people know what that it is? There's a ****ing reason why they're doing this. Samus' DAir causes a ground bounce on a standing opponent. You realize how broken that move would be if it had reduced landing lag?

Some reduction in landing lag isn't going to make moves go from risky to broken.

Just look at Ganondorf's thunder stomp in Melee. Same bounce, still plenty of risk involved.

 

[Jaedrik]

while i do see your point, it seems that this time around air moves might have more ko potential with move characters having spikes and such, along with moves like bower's bair which seems really strong for ko'ing

I dunno, it's easy to say that but we couldn't see the damage percent at SDCC due to 3DS, but in the Grand Finals Damian took a heck of a beating before being baired by DEHF. We shall see! As for spikes, you wouldn't be doing those onstage anyways, would you?

 

[The Slayer]

Some reduction in landing lag isn't going to make moves go from risky to broken.

Just look at Ganondorf's thunder stomp in Melee. Same bounce, still plenty of risk involved.

Not to mention, even with L-canceling, it's not very inescapable in Melee unless the character has a large hitsun. Hell, if Samus was as floaty like in Brawl, her DAir probably won't be that bad, even with less landing lag.

 

[Big-Cat]

Some reduction in landing lag isn't going to make moves go from risky to broken.

Just look at Ganondorf's thunder stomp in Melee. Same bounce, still plenty of risk involved.

But what is the difference in rewards that Smash 4 provides in comparison to Melee?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Some reduction in landing lag isn't going to make moves go from risky to broken.

Just look at Ganondorf's thunder stomp in Melee. Same bounce, still plenty of risk involved.

it very well might since samus dair bounces you both when the opponent is in air and standing on ground.

 

[Venks]

Risk. Reward. Do you people know what that it is? There's a ****ing reason why they're doing this. Samus' DAir causes a ground bounce on a standing opponent. You realize how broken that move would be if it had reduced landing lag?

In Smash 4 Samus's dAir also causes ground bounces on aerial opponents. It also has dramatically reduced landing lag so you can immediately act out of it.

 

[topspin1617]

How stupid am I to have forgot about DI in my post while still mentioning SDI haha? I definitely see your point though, you basically nailed what I was thinking though. Like ground moves with little knockback leading into other ground moves, although you'd probably need to input said moves quite fast, or buffer them. Or have like a ground equivalent of L-cancelling haha. And then being able to escape those combos after a certain percent/being able to DI them more after a certain percent (don't know how that would work, seems like a programming nightmare). But such an idea has more pores than a sponge, but it would be truly interesting to see more pure ground combos in general.

I don't know how I feel about having copious amounts of endlag on aerial kill moves. It's hard because some moves seem to already have their own faults, like the windup on DK or Peach's Fair, while other characters like Zelda or Sheik have pretty fast Forward Airs, and also not a lot of endlag to correspond. In either case, balancing moves in this game would require a reevaluation of every single character's aerial moves, their power and knockback as well. Then whoever is doing this reevaluating (let's say before the game comes out it's Sakurai, and after the game comes out it's some particularly motivated individual(s) with a penchant for hacking the Wii U) has to basically play God in deciding which aerials need more lag and which don't. They'd also have to consider how all these aerials work in correspondence to the opponent's percentage, somehow getting an average value of the effect of the aerial as it works at certain percentages in a cast of more than twenty characters. Tl;dr I'm kind of rambling in this post but deciding which moves should have more endlag than others based on their kill viability would be an arduous task to execute correctly, and would require intense perusing of the person/people willing to take on such a task. The end product would be quite intriguing however

Yes, the stronger aerials generally have other issues anyway, but all I'm saying is that it's okay for landing lag to be one; you can try to start a combo with one if you like, but accept the risk that if you miss, you can be punished for it.

I'm not necessarily saying landing lag has to match up exactly with the power of the move; I'm simply saying that it doesn't have to be a bad thing that not EVERY move have low landing lag as a general rule.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Doesn't it do this in Melee/PM?
I see no reason to be concerned about the balance.
If it were so, then, surely they would change Samus' DAir to compensate?
This seems like a shortsighted concern. Falcon's Stomp was not OP, for example.
Risk and reward isn't the only dichotomy at work here, as those two words to not strictly take into a count a number of balancing factors related to attacks in the Smash Bros. series.

No it doesn't. The properties on spikes in smash are completely different.

The properties on spikes are very interestin, but with that Samus video, I noticed that Little Mac air dodged it right after the bounce. I pray that isn't hitstun canceling.

 

[Big-Cat]

In Smash 4 Samus's dAir also causes ground bounces on aerial opponents. It also has dramatically reduced landing lag so you can immediately act out of it.

We still have to find out how safe on block it is.

 

[Senario]

JV5Chris is right though, just because landing lag is REDUCED across the board doesn't mean the move is plain broken or there is no risk and reward involved. A lot of moves are highly punishable even with half landing lag at least in melee as long as you wiff it(blocked or didn't hit somebody). Reduction does not mean elimination like 64 had.

Marth's down air is one of these moves, Ganondorf has this too on his down air. Bad spacing can also make things very punishable due to shield grabs.

If a move has too much risk and not enough reward people simply won't use it or use it only in very specific and sometimes rare situations.

 

[topspin1617]

JV5Chris is right though, just because landing lag is REDUCED across the board doesn't mean the move is plain broken or there is no risk and reward involved. A lot of moves are highly punishable even with half landing lag at least in melee as long as you wiff it(blocked or didn't hit somebody). Reduction does not mean elimination like 64 had.

Marth's down air is one of these moves, Ganondorf has this too on his down air. Bad spacing can also make things very punishable due to shield grabs.

If a move has too much risk and not enough reward people simply won't use it or use it only in very specific and sometimes rare situations.

I'm not sure about that debate earlier, but I don't think it would necessarily make moves broken; that's not what it's about at all for me.

The idea is that, yes, a high landing lag aerial may have too much risk as an approach and so may not be used to approach. There are tons of situations that call for full-jump aerial attacks where landing lag generally won't be an issue anyway; chasing to end a combo, possibly going for a KO move, etc. I'm just saying a move having high landing lag in no way would make it a bad move or never used; it just won't be used much in ground level combos, and I think that's fine; I don't think it necessary that EVERY move be good in EVERY situation (which I think is consistent with other competitive fighters anyway).

 

[HeavyLobster]

If a move has too much risk and not enough reward people simply won't use it or use it only in very specific and sometimes rare situations.

That's definitely true. It's not an ideal situation when a character only has one or two viable approach options due to all the others being super laggy, as this leads to said character only relying on said options, and makes the game more repetitive and less interesting. Conversely, if a move has too little risk and too much reward, it tends to be frequently spammed and causes the same problem. It's a delicate balancing act. That being said, Smash 4 retains Brawl's stale move mechanics which were designed to prevent the latter problem, (and are pretty effective as far as kill moves go) so I'd probably err on the side of making sure enough aerials are low-lag enough to be useful.

 

[Senario]

I'm not sure about that debate earlier, but I don't think it would necessarily make moves broken; that's not what it's about at all for me.

The idea is that, yes, a high landing lag aerial may have too much risk as an approach and so may not be used to approach. There are tons of situations that call for full-jump aerial attacks where landing lag generally won't be an issue anyway; chasing to end a combo, possibly going for a KO move, etc. I'm just saying a move having high landing lag in no way would make it a bad move or never used; it just won't be used much in ground level combos, and I think that's fine; I don't think it necessary that EVERY move be good in EVERY situation (which I think is consistent with other competitive fighters anyway).

Then you run into the problem if it isnt a viable approach option the opponent will have a small list of things they know you can approach with and people wont use that approach, the options you do have are easily read. Other fighters have a multitude of ways of getting in. Cross ups, instant overheads through tiger knee moves, simply dashing in, air dashing in for an air move for an overhead. I am not sure how solid the comparison to other fighters is for air moves not being used as approaches seeing as other fighters have a similar system where air approaches are fairly good due to overheads. Ground approaches generally are ok too but there arent a lot of fast overheads, low hits end up making ground approaches good but air approaches are still fairly dominant because most ground approaches can just be crouch blocked. Look at any marvel game or blazblue they have a lot of air approaches for crossups and overheads.

The only difference with smash is that once you get in the combo system works in reverse compared to other fighters. They dont stay on the ground as you combo them they get launched in the air.

Essentially you should ideally be able to approach with anything. Ground game are tilts and smashes plus grabs people tend to forget melee had a lot of ground based combos or options even if you had to use a jump or wavedash they still take place on the ground.

 

[Hentai_Kittie]

Being able to approach with every single move isn't fundamentally sound, nor is it a great idea for the game design, balance, or excitement. Where is all the other types of moves? You must have things that are exciting and dynamic for everyone. You must have approaching moves, combo starters, defensive moves, chaining moves, risk reward moves, combo enders, multi-hits, pokes, power moves, exciting moves, all types of things. You must balance speed, power, grounded, aerial, close range, far range, risk, and reward types of characters. You still got ground moves, ATG (air to ground. Essentually what i call short-hopped aerials) moves, and true aerial moves to consider too. All moves must have a purpose, the different they are, the better, as long as it all comes together for one cohesive purpose. Because what purpose is there to make a diverse set of tools if none of them truly have a purpose?

Not all moves are going to be useful at every second. Everything shouldn't be useful for ATG move. You get your omni-use moves, then you get your situational moves. Things become a problem when your ATG moves bypass any thing a grounded opponent can do AND be safe on block. Especially if it has no downside.

So basically. This current debate is about making all aerials viable for short hopping by reducing landing lag across the board, thus making them nearly completely safe (or safer then ground attacks on average). In the process, making aerials again the one true superior approach option on a game that is trying to make ground and aerial approaches equal? Why should ground attacks be the only approach that's bound in rules and limitations? Is this a stealth combo debate?

...Is this debate actually about Smash 4? or is it about high landing lag vs low landing lag and not about how smash 4 has a wide range of landing lag + auto cancelled moves?

 

[Senario]

Being able to approach with every single move isn't fundamentally sound, nor is it a great idea for the game design, balance, or excitement. Where is all the other types of moves? You must have things that are exciting and dynamic for everyone. You must have approaching moves, combo starters, defensive moves, chaining moves, risk reward moves, combo enders, multi-hits, pokes, power moves, exciting moves, all types of things. You must balance speed, power, grounded, aerial, close range, far range, risk, and reward types of characters. You still got ground moves, ATG (air to ground. Essentually what i call short-hopped aerials) moves, and true aerial moves to consider too. All moves must have a purpose, the different they are, the better, as long as it all comes together for one cohesive purpose. Because what purpose is there to make a diverse set of tools if none of them truly have a purpose?

Not all moves are going to be useful at every second. Everything shouldn't be useful for ATG move. You get your omni-use moves, then you get your situational moves. Things become a problem when your ATG moves bypass any thing a grounded opponent can do AND be safe on block. Especially if it has no downside.

So basically. This current debate is about making all aerials viable for short hopping by reducing landing lag across the board, thus making them nearly completely safe (or safer then ground attacks on average). In the process, making aerials again the one true superior approach option on a game that is trying to make ground and aerial approaches equal? Why should ground attacks be the only approach that's bound in rules and limitations? Is this a stealth combo debate?

...Is this debate actually about Smash 4? or is it about high landing lag vs low landing lag and not about how smash 4 has a wide range of landing lag + auto cancelled moves?

When did I ever say all moves should be used on approach? I don't think that is even possible considering the way moves work in smash in general, not all moves will be suitable for getting in and some are used for combo filler.

There is a case for some air moves to be used as approaches though rather than limiting your approaches to very few options. I don't approach with Marth Fsmash or Ganon Forward air as those are fairly punishable, I don't really approach with Captain Falcon Down air either because you have to do that off a read usually, you may get somebody but usually not unless you did a read. Approaching with the knee is also similarly in a "yeah it can work sometimes but isn't universal". You don't approach with sheik Up air, same with her down air, fox and falco don't approach with their forward air or up air generally, they do use it to punish though. And marth rarely approaches with up air when he has neutral air and forward air which are good for approaches.

Omni use isn't the issue, it is being able to choose how to approach and having a multitude of options to keep your opponent guessing.

That said there are already plenty of ground approaches or ground based combat, Marth can use dash attack against dash dancing(used mostly by ken, sometimes by M2k), use of dash dancing+downtilt+grabs on marth or just any of his tilts in general in melee. Shines and waveshines are still on the ground despite having to do a jump action to cancel them. Techchase grabs with jab resets same deal. Regular grabs for all characters. Falcon Side B or his tilts for certain situations like edgeguarding, his gentleman combo of course is a ground based combo starter. Pivots are also used though most notably on Marth chaingrabs on fox and falco, makes the matchup a lot more balanced to be perfectly honest. There are a LOT of options and part of the reason ground game isn't stronger is due to the animations and set distances for all your moves. That and there are no low hits/low blocks the opponent needs to consider, just block or avoid. The other part is smash sends everybody up into the air eventually so ground game is usually relegated to lower percents.

Compare this to other fighting games, blazblue is one I know well ish. Jin has a few good combo starters or approach moves but they are a mix of several options. Down Heavy in the air, normal medium in the air for crossups (both dashing in), standing medium, crouching light, and grabs. Compare to Marth's approach options that are used: Forward air, neutral air, grabs, maybe some down tilts. Everything else is a read or reaction to what the opponent is doing.

 

[Tagxy]

The game doesnt need lower landing lag to be quite honest. In terms of combos landing lag works in conjunction with hitstun, which there seems to be plenty of in this game. Even with pikachu I could upair into the ground and have plenty of time to combo into a utilt, I cant even do that in melee.

Also Brawl had better grounded approach options than melee that arent just character specific sillyness, and its looking like smash4's will be even greater. Aerial approaches arent even that nerfed, you can still autocancel aerials for approaches but at the same time you can avoid walling BS because attacking into the ground then tossing out another move immediately to guard you wont be as common.

Also renji you need to drastically improve the quality of your posts :/

Personally, I think aerials should have a TON of landing lag if you miss, and none if you connect. That way combos can connect but if you just throw a move out and miss you get punished. I like a system of strong punishes and long combos. This would offer the advantage Brawl offers of forcing players to think out their approach a little more (instead of applying shield pressure just because you are fast) but at the same time let players earn huge rewards of being able to follow up with combos for managing to secure a well earned/timed hit with their aerials.

I like this idea, although a simple way to accomplish this is to increase hitstun. If the move misses you have landing lag. If it connects you still have landing lag but you have the hitstun to allow for follow-up combos anyway. I actually think this is the case at least partially, as I stated in my above example I could uair into the ground with pika and follow up with a utilt, but if I were to miss thered be plenty of landing lag to punish.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The game doesnt need lower landing lag to be quite honest. In terms of combos landing lag works in conjunction with hitstun, which there seems to be plenty of in this game. Even with pikachu I could upair into the ground and have plenty of time to combo into a utilt, I cant even do that in melee.

Also Brawl had better grounded approach options than melee that arent just character specific sillyness, and its looking like smash4's will be even greater. Aerial approaches arent even that nerfed, you can still autocancel aerials for approaches but at the same time you can avoid walling BS because attacking into the ground then tossing out another move immediately to guard you wont be as common.

Also renji you need to drastically improve the quality of your posts :/


I like this idea, although a simple way to accomplish this is to increase hitstun. If the move misses you have landing lag. If it connects you still have landing lag but you have the hitstun to allow for follow-up combos anyway. I actually think this is the case at least partially, as I stated in my above example I could uair into the ground with pika and follow up with a utilt, but if I were to miss thered be plenty of landing lag to punish.

What if you hit the shield? Is that decreased landing lag? Because if that was the case then it would make approaching the defending player beneficial, but still punishable.

 

[Egg-Off the Conquerer]

Sure; L-cancelling allows many more aerials to be better approach options.

My argument, I guess, is that... Melee's physics and ATs made SHFFL'd aerials generally the best approach, and yes, Melee was a great competitive game. So of course building on top of Melee would be one option to make a new Smash appealing to the competitive crowd.

But it does not have to be the ONLY way to make Smash a competitive success. To me, it's looking like ground approaches will be much more viable in Smash 4. So it may not be necessary to have every aerial as a viable approach tool, because you will be able to mix up aerial and ground approaches. And I think that type of mix-up is far more interesting than "fair or dair?"

I just really, really hope people give Smash 4 a chance and not dismiss it because it "looks like Brawl". To me it's looking like there is going to be enough here to have a varied metagame with a multitude of techniques. More characters are looking to be viable (judging from the demo admittedly), and while there may not be Melee-level ATs (though there already is pivot-cancelling, and there will probably be more, either in generally or character dependant; hell, even Brawl had a good number of ATs), I think strategy, reads, mix-ups, positioning, etc., while not necessarily "ATs", will be more important than maybe any other previous Smash game. So while it may not be "Melee-style", I think it looks like the potential is there for a diverse, fun, interesting metagame, if the players give that metagame a chance to develop.

The reason short hop aerials are better approaches than ground attacks is mostly because of how powerful OoS options are in melee and brawl. Unfortunately it looks like OoS shield options are even better this time around meaning that without good aerial approaches, characters will lack good approaches altogether. But we shall see.

 

[Bladeviper]

I dunno, it's easy to say that but we couldn't see the damage percent at SDCC due to 3DS, but in the Grand Finals Damian took a heck of a beating before being baired by DEHF. We shall see! As for spikes, you wouldn't be doing those onstage anyways, would you?

with the way spikes work now i will use them on stage, they now bounce the character off the floor and can lead to more combos or even a ko off the top if they are weak enough

No it doesn't. The properties on spikes in smash are completely different.

The properties on spikes are very interestin, but with that Samus video, I noticed that Little Mac air dodged it right after the bounce. I pray that isn't hitstun canceling.

i dont think it was hitstun cancel, im pretty sure that was tested to death to make sure it was not in the game

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

In Smash 4 Samus's dAir also causes ground bounces on aerial opponents. It also has dramatically reduced landing lag so you can immediately act out of it.

^This.

I mean, it's beautiful! DAir > USmash. DAir > BAir (one of her higher-knockback aerials by the way) > lagless landing ready to go. DAir > NAir > do whatever if the foe's percent is low enough, probably following up with ZAir to Super Missile or Charge Shot. Or DAir > FAir > Missile > ZAir > Charge Shot > deaded. (Not a true combo, as they'll be able to air dodge before the missile reaches them. They won't be able to land, though, and by the end of its range the missile is travelling so slowly anyway that the air dodge will end while they're still on top of it. I saw that happen to Little Mac in gameplay footage. It didn't end with ZAir into Charge Shot, though.

And they said this game had laggy aerials.

Also Zelda's DAir has an auto-cancel window now, so she can Thunderstorm you. (That's one of several names for Ganondorf's Down Aerial "combo" in Brawl. In Brawl you need a spring like on Pictochat, but not in Smash 4!)

As for the issue of Little Mac air-dodging out of the ground-bounce, I read that hitstun increases incrementally for every 10% damage you've taken. So if he's at low damage, he'll be able to dodge out. If not, well, tough luck Mac.

Marth has learned the art of Roy's 2-hit combos by doing a UAir into the ground and FSmashing or USmashing immediately. Also you could probably short hop > NAir out of that and then midair jump > tippered FAir.

 

[Bladeviper]

^This.

I mean, it's beautiful! DAir > USmash. DAir > BAir (one of her higher-knockback aerials by the way) > lagless landing ready to go. DAir > NAir > do whatever if the foe's percent is low enough, probably following up with ZAir to Super Missile or Charge Shot. Or DAir > FAir > Missile > ZAir > Charge Shot > deaded. (Not a true combo, as they'll be able to air dodge before the missile reaches them. They won't be able to land, though, and by the end of its range the missile is travelling so slowly anyway that the air dodge will end while they're still on top of it. I saw that happen to Little Mac in gameplay footage. It didn't end with ZAir into Charge Shot, though.

And they said this game had laggy aerials.

Also Zelda's DAir has an auto-cancel window now, so she can Thunderstorm you. (That's one of several names for Ganondorf's Down Aerial "combo" in Brawl. In Brawl you need a spring like on Pictochat, but not in Smash 4!)

As for the issue of Little Mac air-dodging out of the ground-bounce, I read that hitstun increases incrementally for every 10% damage you've taken. So if he's at low damage, he'll be able to dodge out. If not, well, tough luck Mac.

Marth has learned the art of Roy's 2-hit combos by doing a UAir into the ground and FSmashing or USmashing immediately. Also you could probably short hop > NAir out of that and then midair jump > tippered FAir.

its not so much he dodged out of it rather than it just ended

 

[Downdraft]

Whatever keeps the game from being brawl 2.0 is needed.

Either way, shouldn't aerial momentum be an even greater concern? Reduced landing lag won't have as great of an impact if you lose all momentum whenever you jump forwards.

 

[Jaedrik]

with the way spikes work now i will use them on stage, they now bounce the character off the floor and can lead to more combos or even a ko off the top if they are weak enough

I mean, it's beautiful! DAir > USmash. DAir > . . .

There is absolutely no need to be concerned about this, however. Many character's spikes/meteors have done the SAME exact thing in both Melee and Project M, and they are most certainly not overpowered at all.
Quit making a big deal out of what isn't, it's just another combo opportunity.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I did, not all air moves need low lag but they need to not be excessive for what they do. Marths down air is one of those things where lag is fairly justified as it spikes in melee. However a forward air from him has no buisness having immense lag. Similar story with say ganon. His up, neutral, and back air all sgouldnt have too much lag but a slightly longer but jot excessive amount on the forward air and down air due to kill move and spikes.

But as much as I would lpve to say I feel like smash 4 boards has become pretty unfriendly to competitive players

Marth is top tier in both games and right now is holding the second highest placing numbers in both Melee and Brawl.

While I do think the dude is balanced for his spacing game if his trade offs give him a way someone can get in on him, I do think they were looking for ways to nerf him in some aspect in exhange for his high range and good kill power if he tippers.

Not that I agree his fair needs huge lag, I can see why they would go with something in that direction.

 

[Bladeviper]

There is absolutely no need to be concerned about this, however. Many character's spikes/meteors have done the SAME exact thing in both Melee and Project M, and they are most certainly not overpowered at all.
Quit making a big deal out of what isn't, it's just another combo opportunity.

i didnt say that spikes were overpowered, all i said was the mechanics have changed and now are useful if you spike them into the stage

 

[Big-Cat]

The reason short hop aerials are better approaches than ground attacks is mostly because of how powerful OoS options are in melee and brawl. Unfortunately it looks like OoS shield options are even better this time around meaning that without good aerial approaches, characters will lack good approaches altogether. But we shall see.

There's always footsies.