Meta Is 3 stock better than 2?

[LightLV]

ohh bad typo in that post

Yeah the problem with Smash is that there's really nothing in the game that discourages campy gameplay, and stocks aren't tied to time limits, so when there are alot of stocks, matches can get reaaalyyy long.

 

[Shouxiao]

ohh bad typo in that post

Yeah the problem with Smash is that there's really nothing in the game that discourages campy gameplay, and stocks aren't tied to time limits, so when there are alot of stocks, matches can get reaaalyyy long.

True. I think 3stock and 8mins is a good middle ground. 4stocks would be pushing it for Smash4. There needs to be more than enough time to fight but not too much time with things dragging on.

Things like timeouts should be extremely rare. Matches coming close to timeouts should be extremely rare.

When it comes to the Meta I see things getting more and more aggressive over time. With the way patches are done, weaker characters are slowly getting buffed while higher tier characters are being toned down a little.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Things like timeouts should be extremely rare. Matches coming close to timeouts should be extremely rare.

Except they are not "extremely" rare.
Campy games will exist regardless the format.

 

[Shouxiao]

Except they are not "extremely" rare.
Campy games will exist regardless the format.

True. I know some matches take longer than others. Still things shouldn't be coming down to the last min with frequency. We do not want Smash 4(certain matches up) to be like Street Fighter X Tekken(Street Fighter x Timeout). If a min was not added to 2stock and 5mins for tournament matches I would not be surprise if timeouts became a common thing.

 

[Xeze]

The new patch nerfed roll and spotdodges. So that's a step towards a more offensive play.

 

[Aquatics]

2 stocks with 6 minutes . That's what I usually play by and all the tourneys I attend do. 3 is a bit to much for singles but I think it's okay with doubles. Also 3 could be fine with customs but idk

 

[Pachinkosam]

i thought it was 4 stocks but for smash 4 don't have a clue

 

[clydeaker]

The Smash 4 community has developed the idea that tournaments should adopt the 2 stock 6 minuets online rule-set from For Glory mode rather than use the default 3 Stock. I guess players are just use to quicker, cheaper, and less accurate matches because of For Glory mode and starting off with Smash 3DS, a hand-held version of the game.

This is how the general smash community views what smash games are more competitive:
N64 < Melee
Brawl < Project M
3DS < Wii U
Flash < Flash 2

I understand when comparing games like Melee vs. Brawl or Project M vs. Wii U players get very defensive about there favorite games. Over all Melee, Project M, and Wii U are considered the competitive versions while N64, Brawl, and 3DS are considered the less competitive underdogs.

Smash boards official rule-sets:
| Meta | Stock | Time Limit | Best of __ | Finals/Top 8 |
| N64 - | 5 Stocks | N/A | Best of 2/3 | Best of 3/5 | Flash
| Melee - | 4 Stocks | 8 Minuets | Best of 2/3 | Best of 3/5 | Project M | Flash 2
| Brawl - | 3 Stocks | 8 Minuets | Best of 2/3 | Best of 3/5 |
| Wii U - | 2 Stocks | 6 Minuets | Best of 2/3 | Best of 3/5 | 3DS (Unofficial rule-set)

Smash 4 the only meta game where the stock is set lower than default (3 Stocks). It's also the only meta game to set the timer less than the conventional 7-8 minuets. This makes Smash 4 matches much shorter.

Please explain to me why shorter matches helps the meta game?

 

[Pyr]

First you need to define "meta game." Is it the game as a whole? If so, stock count is irrelevant. Is it specific characters' meta games? Then characters that have time-based things, like Wario, are affected. But, at 3 stocks, how much more of a waft are we talking? 1/2? Currently, you only get 1 a match, starting a bit into stock 2, if it's an average match. The answer can go either way depending on your definition, including the classic definition of meta game.

I think that a marginal loss in accuracy with "who is better" is worth it for more actual tournaments being held. I mean, as it is, we're still seeing a lot of 2-0s and 2-1s and 3-0s and 3-2s. The answer to the "who is better" question is still being answered. I think there are better justifications to the 2 vs 3 stock argument then something so subjective.

 

[Shouxiao]

The new patch nerfed roll and spotdodges. So that's a step towards a more offensive play.

The overall speed of the game is getting faster. Defensive play is not bad and is needed. However in fighting games there needs to be a good balance of offensive and defensive options with things favoring offend. On one hand offensive play should not be so strong that the other player has no options to defend. On the other defend should not be so strong that the match gets no where.

Not only has rolling and spotdodges been nerf. The way DI worked at first has been changed. Before Wiiu Smash4 came out vectoring/DI was crazy on the 3DS version. Blastzones are also different for most if not all stages on Wiiu and 3DS. Compared to things at first (3DS without any patches) KOs now happen faster.

Time needs to be there. Matches should not go on forever. However the clock in Smash should rarely determine the victor or be within on the last min. At Apex and EVO certain matches basically felt like Street Fighter x Tekken. No one is exaggerating when they say the majority of SFXT rounds were timeouts/close to timeouts. Even more so before the 2013ver patch of the game.

When Melee matches are longer they usually around 6mins. Its very rare to see a Melee match in the last min or timing out.

Even Brawl matches after the meta develop over the years was not that way.

Smash4 works well with 3stock and 8mins. Game is getting faster due to patches and characters are getting new technology to play around with. Higher/Top tiers are still good and are not getting destroyed by 1 patch.

 

[Xeze]

3 stock would work well if high level Smash 4 becomes more and more fast-paced. Look at Smash Con's top 8.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

3 stock would work well if high level Smash 4 becomes more and more fast-paced. Look at Smash Con's top 8.

Don't forget characters like Rosa, Sonic, Villager and Pacman though. All of them went M.I.A. here.
But yeah we will see, the game will definitely get faster over time.

 

[Rikke]

Couldn't we just do 3 stock 6 min and meet in a middle ground?
I dunno, to me I feel like it would create a situation where timing out is easier, however stalling your opponent is riskier, and with the added benefit of the extra stock people would be more willing to take more risk.

I dunno just some food for thought.

 

[Xeze]

3 stock 6 minutes would go many times to timeout. If you go 3 stock, then you need 8 minutes to not encourage players to stall for the clock.

 

[clydeaker]

2 minuets for each stock is too short and 3 minuets for each stock is arguably a little too much.

1 Stock | 2 - 3 Minuets | 3 Min
2 Stock | 4 - 6 Minuets | 5-6 Min. | 3DS/ Wii U
3 Stock | 6 - 9 Minuets | 8 Min. | Brawl
4 Stock | 8-12 Minuets | 8 Min. | Melee/ Project M
5 Stock |10-15Minuets | ? Min. | N64

Keep in Mind Smash 64, Melee, and Project M are faster paced than Brawl, 3DS, and Wii U.

 

[Shouxiao]

Meta is getting faster. Compare matches on the 3DS at launch to matches now. At Smashcon even Brawl matches went at a good pace.

An agreement on stocks and time would be a good start for a universal ruleset. I know regions vary a bit with legal stages and customs moves but I think stock and time is the one thing that should be universal. Right now many local tournaments are doing 3stock 8mins and many are doing 2stock and 5mins or 2stock and 6mins. Most major events have use 2stock and 6mins. I see things shifting to a 3stock and 8mins standard sooner or later.

As far as 2stock and 6min go the extra min was basically added so that matches would not time out. While most matches with 2stock and 6mins go at a good pace some matches give the ResidentSleeper(twitch meme for falling asleep and or boring) feeling. As far as pacing goes Smash 4 is faster than Brawl but slower than Melee.

I said this before but I think most 3stock 8mins matches would be having similar pace to the matches Izaw uploaded.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I love how much the "slow paced Brawl" stigma wasn't present at the Smash Con and people still would call it that.

 

[Shouxiao]

I love how much the "slow paced Brawl" stigma wasn't present at the Smash Con and people still would call it that.

While more defensive in many ways the meta of Brawl did speed up by a lot over time. The average match at Smash Con for Brawl took around 4-5mins.

Smash 4 is already speeding up. Like I said compare matches on the 3DS at launch to now. Compare Wii U at launch to now.

 

[Pinnacle-eSport]

Surprised to see 3 stock is so heavily favored

 

[wizrad]

Why are tournaments 2 stock anyways? It seems to pretty clearly be the majority opinion by a wide margin. Come to think of it, the community also favors customs and Friid Miis, going by the polls on this site. What's up with all the resistance?

 

[Pyr]

Because this site isn't the end-all-be-all of the community.

 

[wizrad]

No, it isn't, but it's a big enough sample size to provide an accurate representation of the community as a whole.

 

[Dagon97]

A good video to watch is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDL0Uf-lL8Q
Here Tafokints explains how the viewer starts to become more important than the player.
2 stock is much more pleasing to watch than 3 stock even though 3 stock is arguably "more fun".
No, 3 stock takes much longer than two stock, I don't know where people got "3 stock is not that much slower than 2 stock" it is.

As for myself I wouldn't want to play in a 3 stock tournament.

 

[Pyr]

No, it isn't, but it's a big enough sample size to provide an accurate representation of the community as a whole.

That's true... If you never look outside Smashboards. Besides, our sample size is heavily skewed towards one direction. That alone makes the representation Smashboards provides useless for anything other then creating bad arguments.

 

[wizrad]

I don't quite get what you mean. SmashBoards is the largest Smash community online and, as far as I can tell, doesn't draw in players that would tend towards any certain thing (like a democrat forum attracting liberals), allowing smaller sample sizes to be "accurate enough" representations of the community as a whole. I guess it does come down to regional rulings in the end, though.

 

[Pyr]

I don't quite get what you mean. SmashBoards is the largest Smash community online and, as far as I can tell, doesn't draw in players that would tend towards any certain thing (like a democrat forum attracting liberals), allowing smaller sample sizes to be "accurate enough" representations of the community as a whole. I guess it does come down to regional rulings in the end, though.

Reddit's subreddit for Smash Bros has nearly as many subscribers as SWF has total members and has about 500 more people looking at the location at any one time. (2k vs 1.5k at the current moment) And that's just 1 sub.

But then the vocal groups should be ignored sometimes (mostly because they are incredibly, consistently, short-sighted). That's the point.

 

[Shouxiao]

I don't quite get what you mean. SmashBoards is the largest Smash community online and, as far as I can tell, doesn't draw in players that would tend towards any certain thing (like a democrat forum attracting liberals), allowing smaller sample sizes to be "accurate enough" representations of the community as a whole. I guess it does come down to regional rulings in the end, though.

Well Smashboards is the biggest fansite but there are also other places like Reddit where this has been discuss. This is an example.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/35m4p4/will_smash_4_ever_switch_to_3_stock/

As far as people in the competitive community goes I would say that most people favor 3stock and 8mins. Just look at all the various polls and websites were this is talked about.

What many people may not see is that the pacing of a 3stock and 8min match is far different than a 2stock 5/6min match. Simply adding/subtracting a stock and or min greatly alters how people shall play a match out.

I see things moving over to 3stock and 8mins due to Meta getting faster. Just look at how Brawl started and look at what it became. As I said before in this thread. It is not 3stock and 8mins that would take up a lot of extra time if any at all. It is the massive increase in tournament entrance. Just look at how big Smash and the FGC is growing.

When it comes to the biggest tournaments, they are simply going to run awhile. I wouldn't be surprise if someday some big tournaments start using more days to cover main events.

 

[Illuminose]

Well Smashboards is the biggest fansite but there are also other places like Reddit where this has been discuss. This is an example.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/35m4p4/will_smash_4_ever_switch_to_3_stock/

As far as people in the competitive community goes I would say that most people favor 3stock and 8mins. Just look at all the various polls and websites were this is talked about.

What many people may not see is that the pacing of a 3stock and 8min match is far different than a 2stock 5/6min match. Simply adding/subtracting a stock and or min greatly alters how people shall play a match out.

I see things moving over to 3stock and 8mins due to Meta getting faster. Just look at how Brawl started and look at what it became. As I said before in this thread. It is not 3stock and 8mins that would take up a lot of extra time if any at all. It is the massive increase in tournament entrance. Just look at how big Smash and the FGC is growing.

When it comes to the biggest tournaments, they are simply going to run awhile. I wouldn't be surprise if someday some big tournaments start using more days to cover main events.

You can't just tell the TO of a major tournament like EVO or Apex that the event is going to run extra long. You know what they'll do? Run 2 stock because it's more logistically feasible and less of a headache for them.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, anecdote time!
I was playing a good chunk of 3 stock friendlies, and I noticed I'm so very used to 2 stock pacing that more often than not I didn't really know what to do during my last stock. Like, my mental stamina dried out and I got stuck being unable to mix up my own game, getting predictable, and basically just either repeating my same Stock 2 pattern and/or recurring to very basic stuff.
At that point I almost got convinced that 2 stock and 3 stock aren't just two different timings, they feel like two different GAMES.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So, anecdote time!
I was playing a good chunk of 3 stock friendlies, and I noticed I'm so very used to 2 stock pacing that more often than not I didn't really know what to do during my last stock. Like, my mental stamina dried out and I got stuck being unable to mix up my own game, getting predictable, and basically just either repeating my same Stock 2 pattern and/or recurring to very basic stuff.
At that point I almost got convinced that 2 stock and 3 stock aren't just two different timings, they feel like two different GAMES.

Absolutely. One of my friends actually complained that he runs out of steam in a 3stock format.

Watching ZeRo play in tourneys, when he loses the first round which is usually super close if he does, he nearly always seems to have the download in the second round.
I bet he would win the first round even more often in a 3stock format, that's why he prefers it.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. That's why I just can't decide which one I personally prefer, I think both are fine.

 

[DunnoBro]

Pretty sure I heard ZeRo say he prefers 2stock now. I personally do now myself, when customs looked likely I wanted 3stock but if things are vanilla it's probably too slow/static enough that 2stock is fine.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Pretty sure I heard ZeRo say he prefers 2stock now. I personally do now myself, when customs looked likely I wanted 3stock but if things are vanilla it's probably too slow/static enough that 2stock is fine.

It's very matchup dependant in my eyes, which is an argument for 2stock overall.

 

[Quarium]

It's hard to tell but for some reason I feel like we will soon shift to 3 stock simply due to how SHORT a lot of matches are becoming with high level players that rank high on some of the latest tourneys. There have been matches lasting only barely over 2 minutes.

 

[wizrad]

Yeah, looking through YouTube, it seems like a lot of recent, moderate level two out of three matches only last for about six or seven minutes.

 

[Shouxiao]

So, anecdote time!
I was playing a good chunk of 3 stock friendlies, and I noticed I'm so very used to 2 stock pacing that more often than not I didn't really know what to do during my last stock. Like, my mental stamina dried out and I got stuck being unable to mix up my own game, getting predictable, and basically just either repeating my same Stock 2 pattern and/or recurring to very basic stuff.
At that point I almost got convinced that 2 stock and 3 stock aren't just two different timings, they feel like two different GAMES.

That is what I want more people to see. The degree in which time and stock determines the pace of the match is far greater than most people think. The pace of 2stock 5/6mins and 3stock and 8mins is very different.

With 3stock and 8mins a player has to think how to take out another stock. Due to having another stock and more time a player is going to fight differently.

Even increasing time effects things. For example how would a match like 2stock and 8mins play out compared to 2stock and 6mins. Let say the 1st stock for both drag on and both players are at medium or high% and are 5mins into the match. Well time runs out in less than a min in a 2stock and 6min match. Both players could simply try to win by timeout due to dealing more damage. In a similar scenario but with an 8min timer, waiting for timeout likely would not be an option. There is an extra 2 whole mins to fight and both players would likely just try to KO each other instead.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That is what I want more people to see. The degree in which time and stock determines the pace of the match is far greater than most people think. The pace of 2stock 5/6mins and 3stock and 8mins is very different.

With 3stock and 8mins a player has to think how to take out another stock. Due to having another stock and more time a player is going to fight differently.

Even increasing time effects things. For example how would a match like 2stock and 8mins play out compared to 2stock and 6mins. Let say the 1st stock for both drag on and both players are at medium or high% and are 5mins into the match. Well time runs out in less than a min in a 2stock and 6min match. Both players could simply try to win by timeout due to dealing more damage. In a similar scenario but with an 8min timer, waiting for timeout likely would not be an option. There is an extra 2 whole mins to fight and both players would likely just try to KO each other instead.

Kind of like the VERY noticeable difference between 2s6m and For Glory's 2s5m

 

[WavEfighting]

When I talk to TO's, they seem to prefer 2 stock atm as it helps tournaments move along. I will always feel however that the higher stock the more chance there is for skill to be shown. If nothing else I'd like to see finals and grand finals 3-5 Stock, as once you get to the climax of an event both players should be allowed to play at the highest possible level they can play.

I think more stocks enhances that personally, as opposed to less.

 

[clydeaker]

Pretty sure I heard ZeRo say he prefers 2stock now. I personally do now myself, when customs looked likely I wanted 3stock but if things are vanilla it's probably too slow/static enough that 2stock is fine.

Although Zero is generally considered the best Smash 4 player at the moment, The Smash 4 community should not do everything he recommends on a whim, heck even he changed his mind on the subject of stock #. I agree that is opinion should be taken into consideration, but I feel some players treat him as if he were a god, they take his opinion as facts. for example I know of many people who have based their meta game ideas around ZeRos Tier list and analysis YouTube videos.

 

[DunnoBro]

Although Zero is generally considered the best Smash 4 player at the moment, The Smash 4 community should not do everything he recommends on a whim, heck even he changed his mind on the subject of stock #. I agree that is opinion should be taken into consideration, but I feel some players treat him as if he were a god, they take his opinion as facts. for example I know of many people who have based their meta game ideas around ZeRos Tier list and analysis YouTube videos.

I just pointed out his opinion because other remarked on it, then gave my own and the reasoning for it. I never implied anything like "2stocks are good because zero likes it"

 

[clydeaker]

I just pointed out his opinion because other remarked on it, then gave my own and the reasoning for it. I never implied anything like "2stocks are good because zero likes it"

Oh, I'm sorry I miss understood your post.