BND
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2014
- Messages
- 174
EDIT: This appears to be 20xx tier tech. Not going to elaborate how yet, since I still haven't done any definitive testing. I advise that you learn it.
(Calling it IGT for now until a better name comes up since it sounds like AGT and it’s pretty much what it is)
NOTE: Was going to try to amass some video clips/GIFs before posting this, but upon further thought, I don’t have enough dexterity to operate two controllers at once, don’t have anyone to man the second controller at the moment, can’t TAS things with debug mode (the replays ignore the pause commands), and this is 100x harder (though apparently possible) on the Wifi-safe version. I DID get dolphin working so I could potentially put GIFs up, but after realizing that I’ve forgotten how to manipulate and make GIF files, I gave up. If you really want to see the FLV files that I recorded (retakes and all), see https://www.mediafire.com/folder/uxdx9kbhicnkw/IGT. That being said, let’s begin:
There are three common ways to throw grenades after taking one out, in order from most basic to most advanced:
1. Pull grenade, throw grenade regularly: about 10 frames for the grenade to leave your hand, effectively 9 if you consider the fact that no shield is necessary
2. Pull grenade, shield, pick up, throw: 21 frames for shield to come down + 7 frames to pick up the grenade + at least 7 frames for the grenade to leave your hand = 35 frames
3. Pull grenade, shield, wavedash OoS, throw: 6 frames to jump + 11 frames (at least) to wavedash + 7 frames for the grenade to leave your hand = at least 24 frames
But what about this?
4. Pull grenade, shield, jump OoS, airdodge upwards, glide toss: 6 frames to jump + 1 frame to airdodge + toss + 7 frames for the grenade to leave your hand = 14 frames
Remark: You can also substitute the airdodge up and glidetoss for a Z item pickup, if you’re more used to HRC stuff. This gives fewer advantages in my opinion, but whatever works.
There are a few advantages and disadvantages to this:
Pros:
1. You can choose the direction that you want to airdodge in. Technically this makes it more versatile in terms of movement compared to a grenade->wavedash, albeit laggier.
2. It’s the fastest possible non-default grenade toss for obvious reasons, barring a literal shield drop grenade throw (As in, shield drop from platform glide toss: 1 frame for shield drop, 1 frame for grenade pickup (might be less if the two actions can happen on the same frame), and 7 frames for a grenade throw). I think most of us can agree that that’s too next level for us, and it’s definitely too situational.
EDIT (1/19/15): Apparently not. http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2suuzq/fastest_grenade_tech_i_have_seen_vid_by_stephen/. To copy and paste from my own comment for those who don't click the link:
The inputs for this are grenade -> Hold down + shield on frame 14-16 until frame 20 -> throw the grenade. "Throw the grenade" has 2 options: Press Z within 7 frames -> let go of Z and press Z (or A/cstick) + direction, or press L/R + direction within N frames, then press Z (or A/cstick)+ direction within 4 frames of pressing L/R. N is 7 if you hold a downwards direction, and a lot higher if you hold an upward direction.
3. The grenade can be on the floor when you throw it. (It doesn’t have to be, of course)
4. If airdodging upwards, it goes higher than an upwards jump, at the same speed (albeit with lag from throwing the grenade).
5. Nerfing this requires nerfing basic gameplay mechanics or item properties in slightly-less-than-reasonable ways, so it’s probably safe to practice this unlike ftilt timings or grenade recoveries and the like (That being said, hopefully ftilt doesn’t get nerfed).
Cons:
1. You have to throw it immediately (hence instant).
2. The difficulty of execution is only one or two frames easier than a DACUS input, but the punishment is more immediate. If you time the airdodge wrong, chances are that you’ll be doing a laggy, empty fullhop forward air or just a random airdodge. Meanwhile, timing the AGT too late makes you airdodge up with a grenade in your hand, which is even worse. If this happens right after you pull the grenade out, this is ok, since you only take shield damage if you choose to shield it, but otherwise you take an immediate 12 damage and give your opponent an opening. That being said, depending on your playstyle it might be as useful as a DACUS, so if you have that down might as well learn to do this.
Neutral:
1. It’s slower than a smash-tossed grenade. This means that it will travel marginally less far overall, but it will linger in a given area for longer and control space. The fact that it will be airborne means that it will also be harder for opponents to catch and throw it back, if they try such a thing, since they will also have to be airborne to catch the grenade (meaning that they can’t smash toss it back effectively).
It’s not immediately obvious what this is useful for, since it resembles AGT’d grenades in some sense (given that it is actually a glorified AGT’d grenade), which haven’t been given a practical use yet, but here are some applications that I thought of for it. Note that things labeled 0.x are less practical and just decent ways to help you get started in terms of getting used to this in a match:
Application 0: Lob grenade before the match starts
This is an obvious application; basically, the gist of this is you direct your IGT upwards while throwing forwards. This lobs the grenade across the length of Final destination pretty handily, essentially giving you the first hit. Not amazingly useful, though this is a good way to practice IGTing since it’s low risk (the risk being that of misinputs), low reward.
Application 0.1: IGT directed up, throwing up
On reasonably sized stages (AKA not-dreamland), this is a better way to secure grenade up throw kills. This is because the grenade lingers longer, meaning that you don’t have to be as accurate with your timing. (It also puts you in a better position for either a restick or an up/back air (or possibly both, if your opponent’s a floaty) if your opponent chooses to airdodge).
The reason wavedash->grenade toss up works better than wavedash-> jump -> grenade toss up is because, as mentioned before, air-tossed grenades move slower than smash tossed grenades, limiting distance. Since the problem of not enough airtime has been circumvented (given that wavedashed grenades and IGT’d grenades travel similar distances), depending on your preferences, this may work better.
Application 0.2: IGT directed up, throwing down
This one might not have a use, though in teams this is an ok way to stay mobile while laying out a grenade hurtbox in case you suspect one of your opponents is going to attack you. Overall, pretty useless, but there might be a niche use for this as intimidation given that grenades are delayed bullets: if your opponent’s actually afraid of your grenades, then you could do this, weave behind the opponent, and back air for a non-negligible amount of shield damage and a chance to shield poke if spaced right. Alternatively, you could potentially lock your opponent in blockstun while you crossup down air and follow up with a grab which can lead into both massive shield damage and a guaranteed grab if timed well. Sounds cool, but as previous stated, this is just theorycraft (and you might as well just shorthop dair OoS after dropping the grenade without the IGT), since everybody that I’m used to playing with knows how the timing on grenades work while I get nerves when I play people I’m not used to playing with.
(You can actually see my own day-1 (closer to 7) practice here, which features Application 0 and 0.2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGqi5KKp8I. The beginning of the last match of the set shows the angle at which the grenade’s lobbed in. A side warning to those watching: As of 3.5, regardless of how good your peripheral vision is, Omnigaying by putting a sticky on your teammate with Snake is limited in viability given his crippled recovery. There are other shenanigans that you can do that weren’t done in the aforementioned match, but if you’re not well-synchronized enough expect absolutely disastrous results. I’d also john about tourney nerves but I think I’ve done enough of that already.)
Application 1: Approaching against projectile campers
My friend plays Fox and Falco frequently, so one of the reasons this was initially developed was as an attempt to combat this, as the alternative is to crouch, giving them a free approach. Against Falco in particular, I’m terrible at grabbing after their shines or down aerials.
In any case, most examples of laser camping tend to happen on FD (though it happens on other stages too!), which IGTing covers fairly well, so hopefully this either nets you 12 damage or forces them to shield, interrupting their lasers and getting a chance to approach (or countercamp, if you’re into that sort of thing).
This is also significantly faster than dropping a grenade, wavedashing, and throwing the grenade, which would require you to pull the grenade, block a laser, wavedash, block a laser, and throw the grenade (which covers marginal distance and is prone to getting blown up by an incoming laser). With IGTing, though, you can drop the grenade, block a laser, and IGT immediately, with the grenade probably not hitting the lasers unless your IGT is read.
Note that all you have to do is lob the grenade on a different horizontal axis relative to their lasers. Haven’t quite tried this yet since the other option’s safer regarding avoiding the lasers in question, but this probably means that you can direct your IGT diagonally up and throw towards the spacie in question.
If you’re more of an aggro-Snake, there’s probably some good forward-upward angle to direct your AGT while throwing forwards as an approach so that the grenade forces a dodge or shield (since the points at which the grenades can explode follow a continuous path), but I haven’t figured that out yet either.
This is somewhat more situational than the other application, though:
Application 2: Versus long ranged pokers
My friend also plays Jigglypuff and Marth, and I’m not patient enough to keep my distance and runaway-camp at all, so it later occurred to me that IGTing could also be applied here.
Consider the following scenario: Jigglypuff is walling you with back airs, hitting your shield (missing the grenade) and threatening to shield poke. You have a grenade on the floor that you’re trying to pick up (Over 12 frames to produce the grenade and shield, likely over 16, unless you powershield, and after Jiggs hits your shield, 15 frames of shieldstun+lag). If you wavedash back (24 more frames; see below), more likely than not you’ll have to shield another back air (15 more frames), since it’d be pretty darned hard to wavedash -> throw grenade safely (Rudimentary frame data testing says Jiggs’ back air is roughly -15 on block, and her back air comes out on frame 9, which beats out wavedash (11 frames) + recovery from grenade toss (20 frames) = 31 frames). Factoring in the grenade toss (1 frame for a roll, 7 frames for grenade throw), you have at most 12 frames to glidetoss the grenade (An jump-OoS aerial grenade toss will almost undoubtedly explode in your face), accounting for shield stun and all. This doesn’t even account for the fact that Jiggs can delay her back air all she wants, so this is on average much less. Tl;dr, you barely have any time to throw the grenade at all.
On the other hand, with an IGT, I don’t even need to do much math here; you have at least 39 extra frames to throw the grenade omitting the wavedash + shield.
You can do similar things if Marth’s walling you off with forward airs and/or (if you’ve been abusing grenade + shield) shield breaker, and against every character in general. In other words, using IGTs this way gives you three things:
1. A quick OoS spacing tool that you can use to avoid attacks if they’re trying to space around your grounded grenade, and hopefully have a grenade explode on your opponent.
2. A safe (barring shield breaker; unfortunately I’ve fallen victim to it more times than I can safely count) way to cook grenades if your opponent’s nearby and waiting for you to move.
3. A safe alternative to drop grenade -> airdodge into opponent, which has a lot of lag if shielded or otherwise dodged.
I was going to format this a bit more and put a conclusion/tl;dr + comparison to DACUS down here before posting, but it’s a bit late and I’m getting somewhat impatient so hopefully I’ll do that later in the morning. Feel free to post comments/suggestions/the like below.
(Calling it IGT for now until a better name comes up since it sounds like AGT and it’s pretty much what it is)
NOTE: Was going to try to amass some video clips/GIFs before posting this, but upon further thought, I don’t have enough dexterity to operate two controllers at once, don’t have anyone to man the second controller at the moment, can’t TAS things with debug mode (the replays ignore the pause commands), and this is 100x harder (though apparently possible) on the Wifi-safe version. I DID get dolphin working so I could potentially put GIFs up, but after realizing that I’ve forgotten how to manipulate and make GIF files, I gave up. If you really want to see the FLV files that I recorded (retakes and all), see https://www.mediafire.com/folder/uxdx9kbhicnkw/IGT. That being said, let’s begin:
There are three common ways to throw grenades after taking one out, in order from most basic to most advanced:
1. Pull grenade, throw grenade regularly: about 10 frames for the grenade to leave your hand, effectively 9 if you consider the fact that no shield is necessary
2. Pull grenade, shield, pick up, throw: 21 frames for shield to come down + 7 frames to pick up the grenade + at least 7 frames for the grenade to leave your hand = 35 frames
3. Pull grenade, shield, wavedash OoS, throw: 6 frames to jump + 11 frames (at least) to wavedash + 7 frames for the grenade to leave your hand = at least 24 frames
But what about this?
4. Pull grenade, shield, jump OoS, airdodge upwards, glide toss: 6 frames to jump + 1 frame to airdodge + toss + 7 frames for the grenade to leave your hand = 14 frames
Remark: You can also substitute the airdodge up and glidetoss for a Z item pickup, if you’re more used to HRC stuff. This gives fewer advantages in my opinion, but whatever works.
There are a few advantages and disadvantages to this:
Pros:
1. You can choose the direction that you want to airdodge in. Technically this makes it more versatile in terms of movement compared to a grenade->wavedash, albeit laggier.
2. It’s the fastest possible non-default grenade toss for obvious reasons, barring a literal shield drop grenade throw (As in, shield drop from platform glide toss: 1 frame for shield drop, 1 frame for grenade pickup (might be less if the two actions can happen on the same frame), and 7 frames for a grenade throw). I think most of us can agree that that’s too next level for us, and it’s definitely too situational.
EDIT (1/19/15): Apparently not. http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2suuzq/fastest_grenade_tech_i_have_seen_vid_by_stephen/. To copy and paste from my own comment for those who don't click the link:
The inputs for this are grenade -> Hold down + shield on frame 14-16 until frame 20 -> throw the grenade. "Throw the grenade" has 2 options: Press Z within 7 frames -> let go of Z and press Z (or A/cstick) + direction, or press L/R + direction within N frames, then press Z (or A/cstick)+ direction within 4 frames of pressing L/R. N is 7 if you hold a downwards direction, and a lot higher if you hold an upward direction.
3. The grenade can be on the floor when you throw it. (It doesn’t have to be, of course)
4. If airdodging upwards, it goes higher than an upwards jump, at the same speed (albeit with lag from throwing the grenade).
5. Nerfing this requires nerfing basic gameplay mechanics or item properties in slightly-less-than-reasonable ways, so it’s probably safe to practice this unlike ftilt timings or grenade recoveries and the like (That being said, hopefully ftilt doesn’t get nerfed).
Cons:
1. You have to throw it immediately (hence instant).
2. The difficulty of execution is only one or two frames easier than a DACUS input, but the punishment is more immediate. If you time the airdodge wrong, chances are that you’ll be doing a laggy, empty fullhop forward air or just a random airdodge. Meanwhile, timing the AGT too late makes you airdodge up with a grenade in your hand, which is even worse. If this happens right after you pull the grenade out, this is ok, since you only take shield damage if you choose to shield it, but otherwise you take an immediate 12 damage and give your opponent an opening. That being said, depending on your playstyle it might be as useful as a DACUS, so if you have that down might as well learn to do this.
Neutral:
1. It’s slower than a smash-tossed grenade. This means that it will travel marginally less far overall, but it will linger in a given area for longer and control space. The fact that it will be airborne means that it will also be harder for opponents to catch and throw it back, if they try such a thing, since they will also have to be airborne to catch the grenade (meaning that they can’t smash toss it back effectively).
It’s not immediately obvious what this is useful for, since it resembles AGT’d grenades in some sense (given that it is actually a glorified AGT’d grenade), which haven’t been given a practical use yet, but here are some applications that I thought of for it. Note that things labeled 0.x are less practical and just decent ways to help you get started in terms of getting used to this in a match:
Application 0: Lob grenade before the match starts
This is an obvious application; basically, the gist of this is you direct your IGT upwards while throwing forwards. This lobs the grenade across the length of Final destination pretty handily, essentially giving you the first hit. Not amazingly useful, though this is a good way to practice IGTing since it’s low risk (the risk being that of misinputs), low reward.
Application 0.1: IGT directed up, throwing up
On reasonably sized stages (AKA not-dreamland), this is a better way to secure grenade up throw kills. This is because the grenade lingers longer, meaning that you don’t have to be as accurate with your timing. (It also puts you in a better position for either a restick or an up/back air (or possibly both, if your opponent’s a floaty) if your opponent chooses to airdodge).
The reason wavedash->grenade toss up works better than wavedash-> jump -> grenade toss up is because, as mentioned before, air-tossed grenades move slower than smash tossed grenades, limiting distance. Since the problem of not enough airtime has been circumvented (given that wavedashed grenades and IGT’d grenades travel similar distances), depending on your preferences, this may work better.
Application 0.2: IGT directed up, throwing down
This one might not have a use, though in teams this is an ok way to stay mobile while laying out a grenade hurtbox in case you suspect one of your opponents is going to attack you. Overall, pretty useless, but there might be a niche use for this as intimidation given that grenades are delayed bullets: if your opponent’s actually afraid of your grenades, then you could do this, weave behind the opponent, and back air for a non-negligible amount of shield damage and a chance to shield poke if spaced right. Alternatively, you could potentially lock your opponent in blockstun while you crossup down air and follow up with a grab which can lead into both massive shield damage and a guaranteed grab if timed well. Sounds cool, but as previous stated, this is just theorycraft (and you might as well just shorthop dair OoS after dropping the grenade without the IGT), since everybody that I’m used to playing with knows how the timing on grenades work while I get nerves when I play people I’m not used to playing with.
(You can actually see my own day-1 (closer to 7) practice here, which features Application 0 and 0.2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGqi5KKp8I. The beginning of the last match of the set shows the angle at which the grenade’s lobbed in. A side warning to those watching: As of 3.5, regardless of how good your peripheral vision is, Omnigaying by putting a sticky on your teammate with Snake is limited in viability given his crippled recovery. There are other shenanigans that you can do that weren’t done in the aforementioned match, but if you’re not well-synchronized enough expect absolutely disastrous results. I’d also john about tourney nerves but I think I’ve done enough of that already.)
Application 1: Approaching against projectile campers
My friend plays Fox and Falco frequently, so one of the reasons this was initially developed was as an attempt to combat this, as the alternative is to crouch, giving them a free approach. Against Falco in particular, I’m terrible at grabbing after their shines or down aerials.
In any case, most examples of laser camping tend to happen on FD (though it happens on other stages too!), which IGTing covers fairly well, so hopefully this either nets you 12 damage or forces them to shield, interrupting their lasers and getting a chance to approach (or countercamp, if you’re into that sort of thing).
This is also significantly faster than dropping a grenade, wavedashing, and throwing the grenade, which would require you to pull the grenade, block a laser, wavedash, block a laser, and throw the grenade (which covers marginal distance and is prone to getting blown up by an incoming laser). With IGTing, though, you can drop the grenade, block a laser, and IGT immediately, with the grenade probably not hitting the lasers unless your IGT is read.
Note that all you have to do is lob the grenade on a different horizontal axis relative to their lasers. Haven’t quite tried this yet since the other option’s safer regarding avoiding the lasers in question, but this probably means that you can direct your IGT diagonally up and throw towards the spacie in question.
If you’re more of an aggro-Snake, there’s probably some good forward-upward angle to direct your AGT while throwing forwards as an approach so that the grenade forces a dodge or shield (since the points at which the grenades can explode follow a continuous path), but I haven’t figured that out yet either.
This is somewhat more situational than the other application, though:
Application 2: Versus long ranged pokers
My friend also plays Jigglypuff and Marth, and I’m not patient enough to keep my distance and runaway-camp at all, so it later occurred to me that IGTing could also be applied here.
Consider the following scenario: Jigglypuff is walling you with back airs, hitting your shield (missing the grenade) and threatening to shield poke. You have a grenade on the floor that you’re trying to pick up (Over 12 frames to produce the grenade and shield, likely over 16, unless you powershield, and after Jiggs hits your shield, 15 frames of shieldstun+lag). If you wavedash back (24 more frames; see below), more likely than not you’ll have to shield another back air (15 more frames), since it’d be pretty darned hard to wavedash -> throw grenade safely (Rudimentary frame data testing says Jiggs’ back air is roughly -15 on block, and her back air comes out on frame 9, which beats out wavedash (11 frames) + recovery from grenade toss (20 frames) = 31 frames). Factoring in the grenade toss (1 frame for a roll, 7 frames for grenade throw), you have at most 12 frames to glidetoss the grenade (An jump-OoS aerial grenade toss will almost undoubtedly explode in your face), accounting for shield stun and all. This doesn’t even account for the fact that Jiggs can delay her back air all she wants, so this is on average much less. Tl;dr, you barely have any time to throw the grenade at all.
On the other hand, with an IGT, I don’t even need to do much math here; you have at least 39 extra frames to throw the grenade omitting the wavedash + shield.
You can do similar things if Marth’s walling you off with forward airs and/or (if you’ve been abusing grenade + shield) shield breaker, and against every character in general. In other words, using IGTs this way gives you three things:
1. A quick OoS spacing tool that you can use to avoid attacks if they’re trying to space around your grounded grenade, and hopefully have a grenade explode on your opponent.
2. A safe (barring shield breaker; unfortunately I’ve fallen victim to it more times than I can safely count) way to cook grenades if your opponent’s nearby and waiting for you to move.
3. A safe alternative to drop grenade -> airdodge into opponent, which has a lot of lag if shielded or otherwise dodged.
I was going to format this a bit more and put a conclusion/tl;dr + comparison to DACUS down here before posting, but it’s a bit late and I’m getting somewhat impatient so hopefully I’ll do that later in the morning. Feel free to post comments/suggestions/the like below.
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