Instant DJC'ed Aerials and Stuff

[MookieRah]

Has anyone ever documented frame data regarding Mewtwo's usage of insta-DJCed aerials?

I am unable to do my own testing, but I have some estimates regarding these moves based on existing frame data and conjecture.

In any case, I had an idea regarding using fair as a cross-up.

Fair - 14 damage - 8 frames of shield stun
Mewtwo jumps on frame 6
Mewtwo first viable DJC for fair 8-10*
Mewtwo fair hits on frame 14-16*
Mewtwo hits the ground on frame 20-22**
Opponent recovers from fair on frame 22-24*
Mewtwo recovers from l-cancel on frame 33-35**

* 2 frames is my guess as to the first viable frame at which you can perform a DJC that actually allows Mewtwo to perform a fair. It's fairly difficult to perform a DJC so fast that you are unable to attack, which is why I think it's this low. Just in case I'm wrong, I give it a leeway of 2 frames.

** 6 frames is my guess for the amount of frames that occurs after the hit and the point at which Mewtwo would technically be on the ground. This number could be smaller for all I know.

So, if these numbers are correct or at least close, fair crossups seem pretty viable in situations where your opponent has some lag (probably from OoS).

If Mewtwo crosses up his opponent (requires Mewtwo to be very close), they would only have 10 frames or so to retaliate. Aside from Fox/Falco, most characters do not have a means to punish Mewtwo if this happens, as Mewtwo can launch an ftilt that hits on frame 40. Since it takes anywhere from 14-17 frames to recover from shield release, their only options to counter it would be to perform an aerial out of shield, and that would require some rather insane timing on their part.

If anyone has the means could they confirm/deny my hypothesis here? It'd be greatly appreciated. I also think there could be some really neat nair applications too, but I'll save that for another time.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

It looks pretty safe on shield to me, assuming you cross it up. (and are as frame perfect as the other guy) I just have no clue if there's any practical advantage of this over a grab seeing as fair's range is so short and you can combo off of a grab unlike with a ftilt. Like, I'm seriously asking. I have zero scene where I'm at so all I get to do is screw around with tech practice. I can't tell if fair cross-ups are actually a competitively viable option over a shield grab or whatever.

Hmm, you have a point. I actually started this train of thought in regards to finding out if Mewtwo had any means of putting pressure on his opponents with a level of safety. The fair had the most promise considering how fast it is on hit and on l-cancel. Sadly, it has somewhat deviated into a situation in which, more than likely, a grab would work better :-(.

Perhaps this can be used in a situation in which you suspect them to shield but cannot be certain. That way you cover the option of whether or not they shield or not, and it isn't particularly unsafe for you. Perhaps off a tech chase? I dunno, still very limited there.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[MookieRah]

I haven't forgotten about the candies thread, and I'll revisit that soon. Now the problem is that my Marth did so well that I'm training it up too xD. I'd also recommend M2 players to try out Marth, because there is actually a lot of similarities between the two characters in terms of their styles of play.

Before I was training Marth I was learning to be more aggressive with M2, and I would basically do things like dtilt > iDJC fair regardless of whether or not the dtilt hit confirmed*. This almost always led to me being grabbed, so I feel that iDJC fair isn't very safe.

I think that dtilt and ftilt are safe on shield, as they have long enough reach that most opponents cannot follow up after your attack despite them probably not being +frames on shield. Samus's ftilt functions the same way. The problem with these moves is the same problem with Marth's dtilt, in that you can be punished if your opponent expects you to use it, and you shouldn't toss these out much against Fox, Falco, and Falcon because you'll likely just eat an aerial in the face.

What works the best for Mewtwo to get stuff done safely is to abuse positioning. My philosophy with smash now is that, unless I am going for a combo/setup that could do a ton of % or lead to a KO, then I'd rather end a combo early and put them in a terrible position (pin them against the ledge for example).

* - In case you don't know, a hit confirm is a term from other fighting game communities. Basically, it means that you have landed a blow that will grant you an opening for a combo, but often the timing is very strict. Landing a fair against an opponent at extremely low percent is very possible and is a true combo on most characters, but you seriously have to be lightning fast, so I feel it's a good usage of this term. It will take a lot of time drilling in order to be able to iDJC fair on reaction to a hit confirm, but I think it is a fundamental M2 tech that is required in order to succeed with him.