Infinite Grabs

[Lukingordex]

¨Infinites are basically are only Combos due to the design of the game. Taking them all out ruins the game in itself. So that serves no legit purpose.¨

Are you on drugs?

¨Nerfing and Buffing specific characters also serves no legit purpose either. Tier Lists and Unbalanced gameplay exists. Not every character is good against every character. That is a fact, like it or not.¨

If is that,why ban Meta Knight?



OMG I really have to read all these quotes? I needs to avoid fatigue...

 

[John12346]

Protip: MK legal tournaments make up about a third of all tournaments.

Guess what the other two thirds are...

Also, MK wasn't really banned on the fact that people couldn't beat him and how much money he raked in on average. Granted, it served as a factor, because I don't think a character could possibly be banned if he wasn't the most popular and powerful pick out of the bunch, but the deciding factors relied on "unbeatable" things MK could do given a "normal" ruleset(outside of the IDC limit, which is justified, there are certain other infractions to the rules that are directly targeted at MK). Unless you really need to hear them, I'm not gonna go into details for now, but I can say with 100% certainty that the "correct" reasoning behind banning MK was not because he was dominating the scene.

 

[Lukingordex]

Protip: MK legal tournaments make up about a third of all tournaments.

Guess what the other two thirds are...

Also, MK wasn't really banned on the fact that people couldn't beat him and how much money he raked in on average. Granted, it served as a factor, because I don't think a character could possibly be banned if he wasn't the most popular and powerful pick out of the bunch, but the deciding factors relied on "unbeatable" things MK could do given a "normal" ruleset. I'm not gonna go into details about it; you can ask me elsewhere, but I can say with 100% certainty that the "correct" reasoning behind banning MK was not because he was dominating the scene.

¨Nerfing and Buffing specific characters also serves no legit purpose either. Tier Lists and Unbalanced gameplay exists. Not every character is good against every character. That is a fact, like it or not.¨

That guy doesn´t agree with you

 

[John12346]

Ah, well I guess I have to get into detail, then.

The problem here lies in MK's planking, not infinites. Given a competitively sound ruleset, where no character is directly targeted with specific nerfs, MK can indefinitely stall out matches by hanging out on the ledge and abusing invincibility the entire game. This has been frame proven to only exist for MK, and no other characters are capable of doing it, although some characters can do non-invincible variants of it which aren't quite as effective. What this resulted in was a ledge grab limit, which was a completely random and arbitrary rule tossed into the mix almost completely because of MK, and then we went ahead and nerfed MK again by lowering his LGL even further than what the rest of the cast had. Double nerf, the first universal, and the second, character specific, and both directed at MK.

The main idea is that we don't want to be introducing gameplay altering rules to the game, especially because of one character, so ideally, we would want to do away with LGLs entirely. And since MK has the unbeatable planking, we would want to subsequently ban MK right afterwards(although I'm not exactly sure why LGLs are still in effect, even though MK is banned).

Now, you can agree with whether or not that was the right choice for the game, but it should be enough to convince you that MK was not banned simply because he was raking in all of the tournament dough. It's not quite the same ban criteria as having to ban Marth or his 'infinites' on Ness and Lucas.

 

[Lukingordex]

Think with me:

You´re talking about MK´s ban,because he was broken.Ok, I agree with you on that point,but I can´t agree the fact you´re comparing that with Marth´s infinite grab on Ness and Lucas!!!!

We never talked about banning Marth.

We only want that infinite banned!!!

Also,Meta Knight was ALL banned,and about Marth we only want that infinite banned.

Also banning ONLY that on the MU can ruins the game on itselfs????
Man,please... -.-

 

[Arcansi]

****

I was responding to your post, when I realized something.

All my answers can simply be condensed into 'please learn how to apply logic and read text + understand it'.

You do not seem to be able to do so at this point and time.

The main idea is that we don't want to be introducing gameplay altering rules to the game, especially because of one character, so ideally, we would want to do away with LGLs entirely. And since MK has the unbeatable planking, we would want to subsequently ban MK right afterwards(although I'm not exactly sure why LGLs are still in effect, even though MK is banned).

Now, you can agree with whether or not that was the right choice for the game, but it should be enough to convince you that MK was not banned simply because he was raking in all of the tournament dough. It's not quite the same ban criteria as having to ban Marth or his 'infinites' on Ness and Lucas.

I'm sorry John#, but your going to have to explain how a theory that is proven wrong by the existence of the LGL is supposed to create a gap between the MK ban criteria and the M v N/L infinite ban criteria.

Because on the surface, that's quite simply BS.

 

[John12346]

Well, I wasn't comparing it, but someone else was.

They were preaching something along the lines of "Oh, you're telling me to get better and learn to get around the infinite? Then why is MK banned because we didn't want to learn how to beat him?"

I was kinda responding to that >__>

Trying to point out and revise the false premise that MK was banned because people didn't want to take the time to beat him or w/e.

 

[Arcansi]

Well, I wasn't comparing it, but someone else was.

They were preaching something along the lines of "Oh, you're telling me to get better and learn to get around the infinite? Then why is MK banned because we didn't want to learn how to beat him?"

I was kinda responding to that >__>

Okay, that's legit.

But your point seems to be "We didn't ban him because people didn't want to learn to beat him, we banned him because his planking/stalling ability was too good and as such, the lgl was created all for him'

This of course is 100% false if the LGL still exists after his disappearance, is it not?

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Banning standing infinites is a better way to approach it.

 

[John12346]

Well, I was going to try to go after that LGL nonsense in the near future. If MK's out of the picture, then that rule should be, too, of course.

Ideally, the LGL should have gone first, then MK, but we're going in the reverse order, so a lot of logic doesn't make sense in this topic >__>;

 

[Lukingordex]

Just let´s forget about MK and continue explaining about infinite grabs.

We can´t forget Ness and Lucas aren´t the only character who are victims of infinite grabs.

 

[Mekos]

U guys saw me vs Kadaj. Here is an even better example. This player mains tlink and mk...and marth third. When he goes tlink and mk the matches aren't close. But watch what happens when he picks marth...He goes marth for the sole reason of trying to infinite me.

The second match is the best ex.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMgJRmyhRZA&feature=relmfu

I'm the avatar and can enter the avatar state to beat that lameness. But not all my fellow Pk fire benders can do the same. That stuff is not fair to them u know.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

U guys saw me vs Kadaj. Here is an even better example. This player mains tlink and mk...and marth third. When he goes tlink and mk the matches aren't close. But watch what happens when he picks marth...He goes marth for the sole reason of trying to infinite me.

The second match is the best ex.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMgJRmyhRZA&feature=relmfu

Ummm, doesn't the fact that you won both those games kinda strengthen the argument that people need to just get over it and learn to win the MU?

It's perfectly fair to them. Are you not using the same character and playing the same game? If other pk kid players want to do as well as you do, don't you think they should, I dunno, maybe get as good as you?

 

[Arcansi]

Banning standing infinites is a better way to approach it.

The infinite that was being done on Mekos in the video linked on this thread is in no way a standing infinite. Marth can move during it.

Well, I was going to try to go after that LGL nonsense in the near future. If MK's out of the picture, then that rule should be, too, of course.

How near is the near future?

Also, the URC (or atleast DeLux, but im pretty sure I can apply this as the URC's standing) believes the LGL is needed to stop the overpowered strategy of planking from existing as a way to time out matches.

 

[Lukingordex]

Mekos,I loved your Lucas.

I really LOVE to see a Marth getting owned.

 

[Mekos]

@Private - Yea Private those players haven't mastered the inf i guess. They weren't confident in their buffer and slightly moved forward. They can do it standing tho id buffered correctly. The point tho is why should one mistake in a game cause the other player to get infinite amount of damage and a free kill. That is not fair if the other player does not have that option. This isn't UMvC3. And there is only one avatar born a generation man.

@Luk - Thanks pal haha

 

[Lukingordex]

Can I send your guys a friend request?

I will be happy if I can get help with some things about Lucas.

 

[John12346]

@ Arcansi

I plan on making a big stink about it myself, because there are a buncha problems with that reasoning DeLux came up with imho. It's gonna be one of my own personal projects.

But for now, let's stay on track with this infinite topic.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

Sure maybe sometime.

Also it practically is a standing infinite, they get enough damage to kill, Just because they can "only" get like 0132390 % off before the grab is over, doesn't really mean it should be considered escapable, I mean think about it really .-.

EDIT: I'll be heading to bed now, G'Night and thanks to those of you participating in this topic.

 

[Lukingordex]

Sure maybe sometime.

Also it practically is a standing infinite, they get enough damage to kill, Just because they can "only" get like 0132390 % off before the grab is over, doesn't really mean it should be considered escapable, I mean think about it really .-.

EDIT: I'll be heading to bed now, G'Night and thanks to those of you participating in this topic.

No problem pal.

Also,good night.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Hasn't it been established that you can mash out by forcing an air release? In fact, I'm pretty sure I saw Mekos do it in that video he just posted. So... yea, learn to do that.

 

[Lukingordex]

Hasn't it been established that you can mash out by forcing an air release? In fact, I'm pretty sure I saw Mekos do it in that video he just posted. So... yea, learn to do that.

Air release only happen if the Marth player does a wrong timming of pummels.

Also,all the Lucas/Ness player can do is alternate the speed of pressing buttons to confuse the Marth player.

 

[-LzR-]

So why don't you guys instead mash like crazy so Marth can't even pummel you before about 30% and even then he cannot get too much damage after he grabs you either.

 

[Lukingordex]

Because if we try to escape faster he will grab us again.

 

[Mekos]

Also, if u see in my match if yer too busy mashing u can't prepare to DI correctly if they decide to smash u instead of regrab. If u watch the vids u see I died real early once like around 90-100 cuz I was busy smashing and didn't DI correctly. I usually survive to around 150-200

 

[-LzR-]

If you do the Kprime method you can hold the control stick in the direction you want to DI and then spam the Cstick in another direction as fast as you can while rotating the Dpad and all the other buttons. Also if you get grabbed again, Marth is forced to move forward a bit, eventually allowing you to escape.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm going to ask you this, BlueberrySyrup.

Is your goal to ban all Infinites in all situations? Or are you trying to put out "You can't infinite this guy" but... "You can infinite another guy".

If the former, you have a possibility of making this an interesting alternate format. If the latter, it's unenforceable as a whole.

I'll explain why very simply; You have to produce a rulebook for every single match(and every single rule), and watch every single one so no one screws up. That means a Judge per system(not feasible due to time and money), and everybody must memorize every single specific match-up rule. Players have a hard enough time memorizing every possible combo as is. Now they gotta memorize what they can do to one specific character, and what they can't do.

It's not the same as memorizing the hard match-ups either. Because you don't have to do that at all. You may lessen your chance of winning, of course. That's understandable.

Don't get me wrong whatsoever; I am not saying to "suck it up" at all. However, what I'm saying is that this game does have hard or impossible match-ups for some characters. That in itself is just... life. The rules are not there to cater to very specific players either. They're there to cater to the game as a whole and make it feasible for everyone to play in an equal environment.

The only "unbalance" comes from character choices. That's just part of the Tier List. Some characters have advantages over others. The thing is, yes, a Lucas or a Ness can beat a Marth if they practice enough. It does not change that Marth has an advantage over them, though. But that's just what match-ups are.

This game is not balanced whatsoever, as no fighting game with more than one character ever will be.

Not sure where this tangest is going, mind you. So I'll say this; The rules are not there to buff other characters whatsoever. Only hacks can do that, and they're unusable for various reasons.(just search around for answers on that one, it's even on this page)

 

[-LzR-]

I am sure if Marth was able to do the same grab release on MK everyone would approve of it, but the PK boys? CHEEEEAAAPPPP

Oh and yes I don't support banning any infinites since I find that dumb, there are always ways around it somehow.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

But it's not on MK, it's on 2 low tiers, I'm just saying ban all standing semi-infinites/infinites, since Marth can only pummel you to like 300% *sarcasm* gtg school

 

[Ghostbone]

Marth's chain-grab isn't a standing infinite, so we both agree that it shouldn't be limited, cool.

 

[-LzR-]

It also, as said, does about 40% or something provided you mash, similar to what Dedede can do.

 

[TOPIX]

Lol he was reading this thread? Didn't even know.

I just wish SSB was more accepting to low tier instead of letting top tier do whatever they want even when they're already superior.

I'm gonna be straight up, when you main a garb character don't expect the best results (unless you're talented or have the drive to reach high level play with your character) unless you're willing to put in the work. Low tier characters have to work as much as 5 times more harder for a win as compared to a character like Wario or Marth that don't have matchups as bad against most of the cast. It's just how low tiers in fighting games are, they are the LESSER characters of the game, in Brawl I believe (if I'm not mistaken) lower tiered characters in this game have a better chance of winning than in most fighting games where hitstun is more of a factor and combos as deadly 0 - death are possible. If you play smart, know your character, and know exactly what you're doing at all times then you'll win like Mekos did against Kadaj.

Shoutouts to Mekos for holding it down for Lucas mains tho, I don't think this man has ever used a character other than Lucas in tournament.

 

[Mekos]

eww I wanna sig that last sentence. How do I!?

 

[Lukingordex]

Marth's chain-grab isn't a standing infinite, so we both agree that it shouldn't be limited, cool.

Marth can continue this infinite to 300% or something like that.

Until it,he has already killed us

I remember a tournament what I played,at the first match,I have choose Lucas and my opponent has chosen Snake. I won by 3 vs 1.

In the second match,he chosed Marth and I continued with Lucas. I lost by 3 vs 2 stocks because he infinited me 2 Times!!!

In the third match I chosed Yoshi and I won his Marth with a 3 vs 0.

 

[Skadorski]

I believe this is relevant to the discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

 

[Lukingordex]

Good video,but Marth´s infinite on Ness and Lucas can not be considered a thing to explain with it,because we can´t do ANYTHING after Marth grab us.

 

[Skadorski]

That... kinda ignores the point of the video.
There are plenty of things you can do before you're grabbed. You don't get grabbed at the start of a match.

 

[Lukingordex]

Look at the page 11 of this thread.

I think that can explain some things...

 

[Skadorski]

Still ignoring the point of the video.
You are using a LOW TIER character which means he has FLAWS.
One of these flaws is that one character has an infinite on you.
I'm not going to debate whether it should be banned or not, but at least understand the video is addressing the game competitively with characters like Ness or Lucas having very bad weaknesses.
Or are you addressing a different issue?

 

[Lukingordex]

If this infinite grab had works with Wolf,you would continue with that thought?