Ike moving to top tier? (already known)

[Nysyarc]

When doing the DASC, does Ike FF if you use the C-stick for the DA-->Dair?

He would if you have the c-stick set to 'smash'. I have mine set to 'attack' so I don't FF when I Dair. I'm assuming the same rules apply for DASC, so you wouldn't fast fall as long as c-stick is on 'attack'. There's other ways to avoid FF while Dairing but they're tricky.

 

[Guilhe]

It appears that this technique should be useful for faster walk-off aerials as well (in doubles). Nice setups on BF platforms.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I am not sure if he can jab lock, my guess would be no, but I am not entirely sure.

he can "jab lock" with fair but at best that would only lead to a ftilt. That thing should really get renamed since so many other moves have the same effect besides jabs.


This has been known and I posted it a long time ago it just finally got a name and explored a bit more with some characters. The best one i can see if wario since he deals so much damage to shields. I've done this to bair but it doesn't do much unless it hits and even then it sends them across the stage so they have to be pretty high to get killed.

 

[metroid1117]

he can "jab lock" with fair but at best that would only lead to a ftilt. That thing should really get renamed since so many other moves have the same effect besides jabs.

The "jab lock" you're referring to with FAir is actually a forced trip, much like MK's or Marth's DTilts (except much less common); jab locking is where you force your opponents to be stuck in their trip animation through repeated jabbing.

But yeah, this is actually a pretty old tactic, it's just the first time that it's been looked into at this level of depth; I remember Comboking bringing up this video and wondering if Ike could apply this, but I brushed it off as situational and unpractical, since Ike's dash attack has quite a bit of start-up time. Admittedly, it looks pretty cool when it actually does work, but it's only going to work if your opponent shields a lot.

 

[Nysyarc]

but it's only going to work if your opponent shields a lot.

And right next to the edge at that. I can't think of any set-ups or anything that Ike could viably use to put the opponent in that kind of a position. The other problem is that Ike needs a lot of space between him and his opponent for his DA to come out. So you can't, for example, stand near the edge (but not right next to it) and try to bait your opponent into rolling behind you, because even if they did, DA needs more room and more time to start up.

If you managed to catch your opponent standing next to the ledge and they see you coming at them, they're not very likely to just shield... 95% of the time they will roll, jump, spot-dodge or basically do anything other than just shield.

Now, as for platforms, I think it can be quite a bit more useful and it can make Ike even more formidable than he already is on stages like Battlefield. If an opponent lands on a platform and fails to tech, they really have only three options: get up where they are or roll to either left or right. Rolling in either direction on that size platform would put them at the edge of it, and if you're up there with them, their instinct will be to immediately shield.

I'm thinking... could you possibly set up a DASC at the edge of the stage on BF by first doing a DASC off a platform towards the nearest edge? It's all situational but we really don't have much else to work with. For example, your opponent lands besides you on the platform, rolls towards the nearest edge (of the stage), you DASC and spike them into the ground of the stage below. They roll away from you again, into the edge of the stage, you DASC and spike them for the KO (or shield break them, since by this point they've already suffered two DAs, a Bair out of DASC would probably shield break them easily).

I dunno, maybe that's just as far of a stretch as the DASC is anyways. I just thought it would be pretty cool if that could work.

 

[Kimchi]

Actually, I don't know. I could see this being a bit useful for Ike in a real game actually. When your opponent is on the ledge, he has virtually 2 useful options to get back onto the stage against Ike when Ike places himself outside of Ike's ledge get up hit box. To jump onto the stage or to just get back up. Rolling onto the stage isn't smart against Ike, because jabs can shut that option out pretty badly. I could see DASC working out if Ike forces his opponent to do a simple get up, but yeah, it still seems pretty situational.

 

[Nysyarc]

Actually, I don't know. I could see this being a bit useful for Ike in a real game actually. When your opponent is on the ledge, he has virtually 2 useful options to get back onto the stage against Ike when Ike places himself outside of Ike's ledge get up hit box. To jump onto the stage or to just get back up. Rolling onto the stage isn't smart against Ike, because jabs can shut that option out pretty badly. I could see DASC working out if Ike forces his opponent to do a simple get up, but yeah, it still seems pretty situational.

Hmm... it could make edge-guarding interesting because if you stand the right distance from the edge, you can cover all three of their ledge options. Stand so that if they roll, you can instantly jab them, if they jump, you can Fair them, and if they get up normally, you can DASC them (provided they shield, which is a common thing to do after getting up). It would take some ability to read your opponent's get-up animations, similar to chain-choking with Ganon.

Other than that... yah it would be extremely situational and hard to pull off. DA works well for punishing people who roll away from you anyway, but if they roll away to the edge of the stage, you can hold out on your DA for a moment and do it so that they just barely manage to shield it (which they will most likely do), which would of course be what you want for the DASC, and it would have better results than just a DA to punish after the roll.

I'm just brainstorming, I'm sure we can think of some solid ideas if we keep at it. I'm still convinced that doing a DASC from on top of a platform will be much more common and thus more useful than doing it on the edge of the stage.

 

[comboking]

What if they anticipate what you are going to do and power shield your DA. Or maybe roll behing you?

 

[Nysyarc]

What if they anticipate what you are going to do and power shield your DA. Or maybe roll behing you?

Well, you would have to time it perfectly and count on them buffering a shield as soon as their roll ends (which a lot of players will do out of instinct if they see you coming at them). You would have to time it so that if a shield was buffered, your DA would hit the shield right as the frame requirement for a powershield ended... if you know what I mean.

Like I said, very situational and dependent on a lot of things. It could work... but we really don't have any guaranteed or even half-decent ways of setting it up right now.

 

[Rykoshet]

NL's been on this since last year, bair is the best option just due to speed

 

[Palpi]

There is really no set up unless your opponent rolls to edges a lot... and shields while standing there. If you play 100 matches, there is probably a decent chance it won't happen once in all of the matches. It is that situational.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

it happens more often than that palpi. Have you ever backthown someone to the ledge? They usually shield or try and spotdodge if you have lead them to believe that you are trying to combo into a dash attack, read appropriately and you can set it up.


People keep saying its already known, time to edit the title.

 

[Kimchi]

A_B's right about the Bthrow -> feint Dash attack mindgames. That's one of the set ups I was thinking about. Like I was saying before, you could also space yourself away from your opponent's ledge get up attack and force them to either stand up in place, jump onto the stage, or aerial dodge onto the stage. Both jumping onto the stage/aerial dodging into the stage can be punished by Ike with Uair or Fair/jabs respectively, which leads standing up in place the "safest" option. There's your set-up right there.

 

[Phantom7]

Dtilt spike actually isn't a bad reason to move Ike up some.

 

[Kimchi]

Dtilt spike actually isn't a bad reason to move Ike up some.

... Just no.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Dtilt spike actually isn't a bad reason to move Ike up some.

*facepalm -> headdesk -> Darth Vader "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" combo*

 

[King of Sack]

Fun fact: I unintentionally did a DASC in a real game, but didn't follow it up.

 

[Nysyarc]

Dtilt spike actually isn't a bad reason to move Ike up some.

In the 'Moveset Awesomeness Tier' maybe...

 

[metroid1117]

... Just no.

*facepalm -> headdesk -> Darth Vader "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" combo*

I know that it's an empty statement with no reason to back it up, but there's no reason why you can't make an intelligent response...

Dtilt spike actually isn't a bad reason to move Ike up some.

DTilt has a LOT of spiking power; however, it's slow and has a small hitbox compared to the rest of Ike's moves. The biggest reason of all, however, is because most characters have auto-sweetspotting recoveries; this makes it near-impossible to DTilt spike an opponent who's careful and aims for the edge instead of the stage.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Metroid. I respect you. Because you actually have the capacity to give sympathy.

I, however, rolled laughing at Niddo's response to the post. EPIC COMBO OF NO SYMPATHY. I will have to pick it up and use it sometime in my own unsympathetic statements.

 

[KYOJI!!!]

oops, I am sorry I posted this in the wrong spot.