If you hate advanced techniques and the competitive mindset, should you even be here?

[Firestorm88]

Disclaimer: I make references to SmashBoards, Serebii, Smogon, and some other sites. I do not speak for any of these sites and am not affiliated with them in any way aside from being a normal forum member. Albeit more active at SmashBoards and Smogon. These are merely my observations.

Ok, I think it's no secret that SmashBoards (Smash World Forums) is the largest competitive Smash Bros. community on the web. This is the place to go to better yourself at the game. Every competitive battler uses this as their source of information. So then, why, are people complaining about the competitive attitude here? I think it should be a given that SmashBoards is a competitive website and the people who visit the site should have a competitive mindset.

Of course, I'm not sure SmashBoards has ever really clarified its position on what type of board it is. I'm going to bring in Pokemon as an example because other than Smash, it's the only game I keep up with competitively. In Pokemon, Smogon is the leading authority on competitive Pokemon. Serebii is the largest general Pokemon site on the web. The home page makes it apparent (I'm not sure if SmashBoards' homepage is even up anymore actually >_>). The forum community, makes it even more apparent.

On Serebii, you have the people who believe that you should play with your favourites, that every Pokemon is equal (no tiers), and that Pokemon are individual species. You have quite a few people who don't think you should use EVs or breed for IVs (you can use them as an equivalent of Smash's advanced techs for the purpose of this discussion, although they're really not the same).

On Smogon, the general idea is that you play with what works and what wins. People realize that a Beedrill is not on the same level of a Salamence. Of course, making your favourites try to work in the environment still happens - otherwise you'd lose a lot of potential for finding new strategies, but it's not a "No Butterfree is an awesome special attacker in OU" kind of way. Pokemon are like chess pieces.

I'd say the difference between Serebii and Smogon in terms of smash, would be that Serebii users would be the ones complaining right now about the lack of Ridley, Geno, Krystal, etc and how much of a lazy person Sakurai is while Smogon users would be the types to move on and start thinking of the gameplay possibilities that have opened up with Brawl's new engine.

So should SmashBoards be a general Smash board or more specialized? I mean, does the internet need another Smash board or should SmashBoards fill the niche that competitive Smashers need? There are plenty of boards to go to after all - Brawl Central comes to mind. I for one would not mind if SmashBoards took a more proactive role in keeping this place to be the destination for competitive battlers. All it requires is more of a crackdown on people complaining about advanced techniques. Just make it a given that to use these forums, you are at least open to the idea of advanced techniques and follow more or less the guidelines that Sirlin puts out in his book, Playing to Win. It might deter some people from visiting the website, but it would definitely keep the quality of posts higher.

Obviously more could be discussed than just competitive battling, but you could lock threads like "Is Krystal the hottest Smash character?!?!?!" and "Wavedashing is a glitch it sucks". Like items? Good for you. Discuss it. It's a legitimate part of the game and lots of people find it fun. It's when you start saying items are the only way of playing the game that you run into issues. Same with 1v1 vs FFAs. Heck, the opposite is true too. If you think competitively is the only way to play the game, you need to get your head out of the ground.

Oh, and as a last little side note, I think all of you complaining endlessly about how l-cancelling is gone and that Sakurai is stupid are complete morons. Get over yourselves. Do something useful, play the **** game, learn it, and help it evolve. Rome wasn't built in a day and competitive Brawl won't be either.

Additional Reading:
Smogon's Philosophy
Playing to Win by Sirlin
- Most notably, this often quoted article by Sirlin here

I just want to re-iterate that I am not in any shape or form a representative of SmashBoards, Smogon, or Serebii. I might even be wrong about any of this. This is merely something I wrote up while procrastinating with regards to my Photography assignment.

 

[solrac_krad]

The answer Id say is, at least for me, tough I dont hate at all advanced techniques and that stuff, is, why not??? Its a big place, just play as you would like to play

 

[2L84U]

There's nothing wrong with different ideas.
One can hate ATs, one can love them.
Just choose whatever you like.

Brawl is far more than just competitive playing.

 

[Xgamer245]

If I did hate advance techniques and the competative mindset...then no I should not be here.
This board is the largest smash community and that fact alone just makes it obvious that If I were to hate competative gameplay I'm not welcome. But the truth is, even if i did hate them...I should keep it to myself and not complain (example of complaining-Wave dashing is a glitch blah blah blah..)....If I were to compllain then I'm not welcome. If people just kept the flaming to themselves then everyone would be welcome. So please everyone STOP THE DEBATE, NO FORM OF GAMEPLAY IS BETTER OR WORSE, IT'S ALL JUST A STYLE OF GAMEPLAY!!!
People are allowed to have there own opinions and also, don't try to change others beliefs...it would end up in a flame war.
Thats what I would say.

 

[Firestorm88]

The answer Id say is, at least for me, tough I dont hate at all advanced techniques and that stuff, is, why not??? Its a big place, just play as you would like to play

Hm, I don't think you understood my post. I sort of explain "why not" although I may not have been clear.

Then again, I'm not sure if you're saying "tough luck I don't like advanced techs, but I'm here" or "though I don't hate advanced techniques, I'm here". I'm thinking it's the former... Oi.

 

[Firestorm88]

There's nothing wrong with different ideas.
One can hate ATs, one can love them.
Just choose whatever you like.

Brawl is far more than just competitive playing.

I never said it was just competitive playing. Actually, at the end I explicitly stated it isn't the only way of playing. I meant that should SmashBoards, the competitive authority on Smash, be welcoming those who do are completely close-minded to competitive Smash.

If I did hate advance techniques and the competative mindset...then no I should not be here.
This board is the largest smash community and that fact alone just makes it obvious that If I were to hate competative gameplay I'm not welcome. But the truth is, even if i did hate them...I should keep it to myself and not complain (example of complaining-Wave dashing is a glitch blah blah blah..)....If I were to compllain then I'm not welcome. If people just kept the flaming to themselves then everyone would be welsome. So please everyone STOP THE DEBATE, NO FORM OF GAMEPLAY IS BETTER OR WORSE, IT'S ALL JUST A STYLE OF GAMEPLAY!!!

Yes. If people who prefer casual smash didn't flame, then I think it'd definitely be better. I'd say that would be a form of being more open to competitive smash. Although I don't know if they'd want to stick around. Wouldn't it be better to join a forum where others shared their similar styles of play?

 

[The Great Leon]

well i like the post. i agree that smashboards should be more of a competitive forum. but then again, who are we to judge. people who whine about AT's don't belong here, but people who don't want to play with them shouldn't be discriminated against. maybe they could open up a casual board, though i cant think of what they would have to talk about >.>

also, photo projects suck. keep up the good work.

 

[Xgamer245]

I never said it was just competitive playing. Actually, at the end I explicitly stated it isn't the only way of playing. I meant that should SmashBoards, the competitive authority on Smash, be welcoming those who do are completely close-minded to competitive Smash.



Yes. If people who prefer casual smash didn't flame, then I think it'd definitely be better. I'd say that would be a form of being more open to competitive smash. Although I don't know if they'd want to stick around. Wouldn't it be better to join a forum where others shared their similar styles of play?

Yes, it would be better to join a forum for specialized stuff (Casual/Competative).
IF Smash World Forums had a separate Casual Board and Competative board I would think that everyone would be happy and won't flame as much.
So why don't we have a separate boards?

 

[Firestorm88]

Hm, the board idea is interesting but I'm not even sure how it would work. I mean, where do you draw the line of what should and shouldn't be discussed on each board? And I can't really think of what would be discussed on the "casual smash" board. I mean, most of it is stuff people who play competitively are interested in too isn't it?

Not to mention I think SmashBoards has too many boards already =P

 

[iLink]

Well its called Smash WORLD Forum so it should be for anyone. But I really think the casuals need to stop complaining about elites and the other way around as well.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

"So why don't we have a separate boards?"

I don't like the idea of people coming into a competitive based forum and commanding the community to split the board in the favour of the casuals. I came here to learn about smash and discuss it. I see that if you just want to be like "omg what is your favorite character?" or "anyone know how to do cool glitches" can find their information on other gaming sites. I agree with the OT. Sure, I'm not all out hardcore competitive, I love to play casual matches with friends, but here we have to accept that advance techs are necessary to win and that tiers to exist, pretty much the competitive mindset FireStorm speaks of.

Well its called Smash WORLD Forum so it should be for anyone. But I really think the casuals need to stop complaining about elites and the other way around as well.

Name of a site doesn't mean anything. We would need to rename GameFAQs.

 

[Bendu]

Is this not the "General Brawl Discussion" board already?

"General?" Doesn't that already answer any questions about the intentions of this particular board?

 

[Firestorm88]

Well its called Smash WORLD Forum so it should be for anyone. But I really think the casuals need to stop complaining about elites and the other way around as well.

The name explains nothing. Especially considering it's only called SWF because the main website is named "Smash World"

"So why don't we have a separate boards?"

I don't like the idea of people coming into a competitive based forum and commanding the community to split the board in the favour of the casuals. I came here to learn about smash and discuss it. I see that if you just want to be like "omg what is your favorite character?" or "anyone know how to do cool glitches" can find their information on other gaming sites. I agree with the OT. Sure, I'm not all out hardcore competitive, I love to play casual matches with friends, but here we have to accept that advance techs are necessary to win and that tiers to exist, pretty much the competitive mindset FireStorm speaks of.



Name of a site doesn't mean anything. We would need to rename GameFAQs.

Haha, do you even go to the tournies? I think you're like me and post a lot but don't go much, right? Were you at the SFU one in January? Maybe I talked to you but didn't realize! =O

Is this not the "General Brawl Discussion" board already?

"General?" Doesn't that already answer any questions about the intentions of this particular board?

I'm talking about this forum in its entirety, not merely this board.

 

[Bendu]

I'm talking about this forum in its entirety, not merely this board.

But doesn't the fact that this site has a "General Brawl Discussion" as well as boards specifically dedicated to tournaments already answer your question?

 

[Firestorm88]

But doesn't the fact that this site has a "General Brawl Discussion" as well as boards specifically dedicated to tournaments already answer your question?

You know, that might work in the end. If we retire Melee to Smash 64 status and split the board up the way Melee is now. Of course, we'd have to see how it goes because the Tournament Discussion / Tournament Listings split was only done in the last week afaik.

Of course, I still think the whole "advanced techs are BAD! only do what's 'intended'" type posts should be a moddable offense I also think that people endlessly whining about the loss of older techniques should be warned as well.

 

[Xgamer245]

Hold on here I was just asking a question >.<
Really though the problem goes to the impulsive posts and unnecessary claims and rants made by users.
We really don't need to change anything though....we just need to tell people to stop and think before you post. Nothings really going to change though, after all, no community is perfect.

 

[Japanese Monk]

You know, that might work in the end. If we retire Melee to Smash 64 status and split the board up the way Melee is now. Of course, we'd have to see how it goes because the Tournament Discussion / Tournament Listings split was only done in the last week afaik.

Of course, I still think the whole "advanced techs are BAD! only do what's 'intended'" type posts should be a moddable offense I also think that people endlessly whining about the loss of older techniques should be warned as well.

I agree. Mostly, I think people who get angry at advanced players are just angry because they think or know they could never achieve such a status.

I consider myself a little above the casual level, yet when I play some friends in smash I'll take off the glam and the glitz and still whoop em.

Casuals don't realize that its still a chess match and its simply your reflexes and wit at work.

At the end of the day, I know that I could whoop a casual who thinks adv. techs are cheating.

For example: (not really adv techs but this is how casuals complain about losing)

I main Samus, and my bro was complaining that I only win because of Samus' projectiles. (Yet he mains Mario and fox -)

Obviously this isn't the case, but to be honest those are samus' moves. I wouldnt complain about another characters B moves and say, "don't use them! they are cheap!!"

Anyway just to shut him up I played him without using Samus' charge shot or missiles. 4 stock match and when it was over I still had 3 lives. Go figure.

Remember, 9 times out of 10 the reason you're losing isnt because the character or the moves, its the player.

 

[Lance87]

@Firestorm- I totally understand. No offense to the new dudes around here, but ever since Brawl was announced there has been a major flood of people new to the tournament scene.

I'm glad that someone has finally pointed out that this is not gamefaqs, and typically the members of SWF have always jumped on people who are ignorant about the way they post. I think it'll be fine in the long run once the "OMG adv. techs suck" people realize that they are outnumbered by the people on this site that are trying to push this game into the future.

 

[Thinkaman]

Remember, 9 times out of 10 the reason you're losing isnt because the character or the moves, its the player.

Dead wrong. It's 10 out of 10.

This topic brings up something that probably should have been said long ago: Smashboards is for competitive players. It always has been, and remains, the single meeting ground for the competitive smash community and tourney organization.

When I was not a competitive player, I did not have an account here. I visited and observed the discussion and techniques with curiosity, but I was not a member of the community. Why would I tell the competitive players anything when I was not a competitive player myself? If they wanted to come to my forums and read what I had to say just as I visited smashboards, fantastic. One day I became a competitive player, and naturally joined smashboards both in the literal and community senses.

If someone doesn't want to discuss competitive smash, why are they posting here except to troll? It makes no sense and is nothing but disruptive.

 

[deathborn00]

wow that was kinda discriminatory, i mean sure i play competitively, but you basically implied smashboards should be more a place for the competitive smashers. what's wrong with having the WHOLE smash community? why should SWF be limited to the competitive players and shun the casual ones?

bah, i for one like the boards as it is, the complaining is going to be gone after a few months anyways.

 

[Lance87]

I wonder if the mods would sticky this, they'd have to be blind not to see the way these people are deteriorating the quality of the board in general. I don't think that non-competitive people shouldn't be allowed to post by any means. It's just that the trolling has been running rampant as of late, and this used to be one of the friendliest forums on the interweb.

If someone doesn't want to discuss competitive smash, why are they posting here except to troll? It makes no sense and is nothing but disruptive.

Quoted. For. Truth.

 

[deathborn00]

wtf people, SWF isn't for the sole purpose of the competitive players.

sigh, if we make it for only competitive smashers, oh what would we do with general entertainment threads that have nothing to do with smash?

sigh, i'm all for competition, but why do so many of the competitive players have to act so elitist and superior? You'd have to be blind to not notice there's trolling on both sides of the spectrum

 

[Thinkaman]

wow that was kinda discriminatory, i mean sure i play competitively, but you basically implied smashboards should be more a place for the competitive smashers. what's wrong with having the WHOLE smash community? why should SWF be limited to the competitive players and shun the casual ones?

Because non-competitive players, though not all of them of course, have been the ones who have been constantly, for months:

- Making threads and posts declaring judgements on certain characters and moves.
- Complaining endlessly about a roster with over 800 unique matchups when Melee had less than half that.
- Complaining about the content of a game with over 40 stages and almost 300 songs.
- Trolling any and all "advanced techniques", flaming competitive players and their "exploits" and "glitches".
- Repeatedly asking about turning on items and smashballs, refusing the understand answers given, and remaining loudly bitter about it.
-Consistently filling thread with personal threats and insults, even arguing with people who are giving reports after playing the actual game.
-LOL LANDMASTER

I have compiled a list of punishments to align with various offenses:

- Any caught using the words "Sakurai" and "lazy" in the same sentence will be shot. From a cannon. Into the sun.
- Anyone still complaining about ROB will be forced to read Youtube comments until they agree to actually watch a video of him and see how unique he is.
- Anyone who loudly states that toon Link is a "clone" of Link will have Toon Link's up-smash done to them personally as a means of enlightenment. Similarly, we will employ Ganondorf's forward-tilt to similar effect.
- For Falco and Wolf we won't even waste our time, and just force you to play Star Fox Adventures as punishment.
- Speaking of Krystal, anyone caught still complaining about her not being a playable character will have their folder of furry pr0n deleted. This is obviously the worst thing we could possibly do to them.
- Anyone caught saying that tires don exits will be banned from video games until they beat Duke Nukem Forever.

 

[Jellybelly]

Disclaimer: To join smashboards,you must agree with everything we say

Even more annoying than the people who resent the advanced techniques are the people who complain about them being missing from brawl.

I'm no expert, but to my knoledge alot of the AT's were abuses of a unrealistic physics engine, which has now been improved upon.

 

[Gerkuman]

With the advent of Wifi in brawl, you're going to get new people in. To turn around and say 'You can't be here because you don't use ATecs' is counter productive. Do you really want to force people to do it your way? With a new game comes new ideas, and changes. To stay exactly the same could be a mistake, and turn people sour to the idea of competitive smash. It already happened with Melee.

Saying that however, this has always been the board for competitive smash and that shouldn't change. What I think should change is the expectation that Competitive smash players must learn ATecs to be welcome. Otherwise the Smash Community will miss out on what might be the biggest surge in popularity it's ever had.

 

[deathborn00]

Because non-competitive players, though not all of them of course, have been the ones who have been constantly, for months:

- Making threads and posts declaring judgements on certain characters and moves.
- Complaining endlessly about a roster with over 800 unique matchups when Melee had less than half that.
- Complaining about the content of a game with over 40 stages and almost 300 songs.
- Trolling any and all "advanced techniques", flaming competitive players and their "exploits" and "glitches".
- Repeatedly asking about turning on items and smashballs, refusing the understand answers given, and remaining loudly bitter about it.
-Consistently filling thread with personal threats and insults, even arguing with people who are giving reports after playing the actual game.
-LOL LANDMASTER

.

lmao that's funny, cause the competitive smashers also complain. "Complaining about the content of a game with over 40 stages and almost 300 songs" lol sorry but a lot of the competitive ones complain about the removal of some ATs, maybe they should just leave?

 

[Lance87]

Disclaimer: To join smashboards,you must agree with everything we say

Even more annoying than the people who resent the advanced techniques are the people who complain about them being missing from brawl.

I'm no expert, but to my knoledge alot of the AT's were abuses of a unrealistic physics engine, which has now been improved upon.

It doesn't surprise me that you joined in the last day or two. Nobody's saying that you have to agree with what anyone says. It should just be known that this site is easily known as THE source of competitive content of the game, and the amount of trolling that i've seen lately is a first for me on this site. It's a shame really.

If you think ATs are "abuses," please read David Sirlin's Playing to Win.

 

[Maben]

This thread brings a great topic to the light of many of the posters here that I think fail (or failed) to see it:

SWF was created with the intention to bring competitive smashers together and form a competitive community. As you can see I have joined the boards relatively recently and like others, I did so when I became competitive. I have played smash since it came out on the 64 and I have visited SWF and known about techniques all throughout Melee's lifespan. I didn't become competitive until about Sept. 2007 so I decided to become more active in the competitive community.

Making anti-competitive posts is just going to get you flamed in general. You will be in the minority so don't expect to have a usual debate. I'm not disagreeing with the casual play style, I'm just saying what to expect when you post on Smash Boards.

 

[SuperLink9]

When I first joined SWF about a year ago, I couldn't perform any advanced techniques. I only came to talk about Super Smash Bros Brawl with other Smash Bros fans, and maybe learn some good gameplay.

My point is, if someone joins just to talk about Super Smash Bros and doesn't enjoy competetive play, then why shouldn't they be here? Isn't this the biggest Smash Bros community in the world?

 

[Limey]

No, this site isn't for competitive players only, and i don't think anyone has the right to think that it is.

Put it this way. Smashboards was created by a non-competitive player, and most of the old veterans who are still around from 2001/2002 are non-competitive, and just enjoy the casual side of the game. I should know, because i'm one of them.

Regardless of that, though, this forum is for people who enjoy the Smash Bros. series, in whatever way.

 

[Layupfreak]

im supposing it is for both

 

[Jellybelly]

It doesn't surprise me that you joined in the last day or two. Nobody's saying that you have to agree with what anyone says. It should just be known that this site is easily known as THE source of competitive content of the game, and the amount of trolling that i've seen lately is a first for me on this site. It's a shame really.

If you think ATs are "abuses," please read David Sirlin's Playing to Win.

I understand the nature of competitive play. I understand that in order to win, particularly with money at stake, that players need to use all the tools and techniques available to them.

It just seems to me that after 6 years of the same techniques people are just annoyed that they can't carry there skills over. And while casual players say "Good, no more glitches to abuse" and Pros say "They're not abuses, there part of the game"

Whos right? I couldn't say. But if smashboards is the biggest brawl community on teh interwebs, then it should be able to house both.

 

[Necrochild313]

I like advanced techniques but I like playing casually with hectic stages and crazy items as a way to have fun. I guess I'm somewhere in-between.

 

[Professor X]

Smashboards is dedicated to competitive Smash. Though the intense study and practice of Smash seems normal to competitive players, it is actually a "deviant" playing behavior not shared by the majority of the community.

This board believes in "playing to win," Sirlin style, and should make no bones about it. But at the same time I feel we should try to welcome casual players over to our side, while resisting the flames.

 

[X9 Spectre]

I'm not exactly a veteran of this board, so I'm not sure what kind of welcome this post will receive, but we'll see.

I think that exploring the intricacies of Smash playing is perfectly acceptable. When you're "playing to win", you definitely pull out all the stops. If you're playing a racing game with the goal of beating your best time, you're not going to ignore something like snaking, or a shortcut - even if it means toying around with something that isn't explicitly in the instruction manual.

That said, I do think there are some that take the whole thing a little too seriously. Only playing flat stages with no items can be...boring. The zany unpredictability is part of the fun of Smash Bros., and utilizing the items (and avoiding traps) arguably takes just as much skill as wavedashing or L-cancelling or what have you. I play with a fun group of people, and we tend to play with the default settings. We might take off an item or not play a stage, but more out of personal preference than anything - but we still enjoy learning the cool, fun stuff you can do. Extending Samus' grapple beam, picking up Electrodes, that sort of thing. We don't go out of our way to create a sterile environment, as that's not really any fun, most of the time.

I definitely think that this board can appeal to both sets of players. Although I don't seek out tournaments, I love the game just as much as the championship player - I may not play competitively out on the town, it doesn't mean I'm not "serious" about gaming.

 

[Stueyman2099]

If this board had more threads with this kind of attitude and reasonable discussion, I'd be here alot more often, thats for sure.

On Topic.

While I'm definatly more interested in the competitive side of the game, and I did initially come here to learn the intricacies of how smash is played, it's important to remember that this game is at it's heart a party game.(end run-on sentence) The competitive form that many people enjoy is just a modified version of that.

On the topic of the right way to play, that's all dependent on your goals with the game. If your goal is simply to have fun, items, stages that like killing you, etc. are the way to go in that the random factor completely unbalances things making the worst player even able to get a kill. If you are playing competitively however these are things that must be turned off.

Trying to veer back on topic here.
It's important to remember that in most games the competitive community consists of 5% or less of people who play the game. To ban all those people would have benefits for the competitives, but you have to come back and ask again is that the goal of this forum, and I'm really not sure that it is.

 

[Xanderous]

If you play Smash for hours and then come to an online forum to talk about it...

you are not a casual player. Stop using that as an excuse for sucking.

 

[Bendu]

If you play Smash for hours and then come to an online forum to talk about it...

you are not a casual player. Stop using that as an excuse for sucking.

I think it's safe to say that not every single person posting on these boards still plays Melee for hours. They could just be looking forward to Brawl.

I know I only just booted up Melee for the first time in a couple of months a few days ago. Before that it was just the occasional Rainbow Six or Zack & Wiki on my playing agenda.

I'd say that's somewhat casual, even if I do wavedash when I'm playing Luigi.

 

[Lord Knight]

Almost everyone in Brawl Discussion is misusing the term "competitive'.

 

[clace]

No way, even if the majority of the people here are omghax0r at melee/brawl, that doesn't make the forum just for them, d00d. Smashboards is just a forum for smash fans. That's it.

Plus saying stuff like that is what enforces this whole 'scrub vs pro' crap. The basic and advanced ways of playing aren't really on the same level, they're two different playstyles that may as well have been from different games.