Ideas for Smash 6

[Kirbeh]

Cappy will just be outdated by the next gimmick in the next 3D Mario. I really don't think Mario's moveset should even have stuff like this.

While Cappy may not return, I think the cap throw on its own is still worth including. Mario always has his cap and adapting the cap throw into a Smash move, even without Cappy would still provide Mario with something fresh that plays into giving him more movement options. On the sole basis of being a more interesting move, I'd gladly take it over FLUDD, though on top of that, I think it would offer more utility and feels less jarring than Mario pulling out a random gadget.

NGL, I'm partial to the idea of reworking the KO meter into the Star Punch system, but do it so that each attack has a low chance of granting a star while landing a Slip Counter has a high chance, and of course getting hit has a chance of losing a star.

But I'd settle for removing his "not an air fighter" "gimmick".

I think a potential way of introducing the "star" mechanic would be to award them from landing counter hits. (In the traditional FG sense not Smash counter specials.)

I think Play Rough would be better suited to replacing its d-throw.

They really need to make Rollout not useless without a charge though.

I actually think Play Rough would be better suited going to another Pokémon (like Eevee if they decide to add it) as a sort of either pseudo command grab or Art of Fighting Ryo style multi-hit move.

As for Rollout, I'd rather see it get replaced outright for a projectile or ranged move like Echoed/Hyper Voice or a different Fairy type move like Draining Kiss or Disarming Voice.

 

[Glubbfubb]

While Cappy may not return, I think the cap throw on its own is still worth including. Mario always has his cap and adapting the cap throw into a Smash move, even without Cappy would still provide Mario with something fresh that plays into giving him more movement options. On the sole basis of being a more interesting move, I'd gladly take it over FLUDD, though on top of that, I think it would offer more utility and feels less jarring than Mario pulling out a random gadget.



I think a potential way of introducing the "star" mechanic would be to award them from landing counter hits. (In the traditional FG sense not Smash counter specials.)


I actually think Play Rough would be better suited going to another Pokémon (like Eevee if they decide to add it) as a sort of either pseudo command grab or Art of Fighting Ryo style multi-hit move.

As for Rollout, I'd rather see it get replaced outright for a projectile or ranged move like Echoed/Hyper Voice or a different Fairy type move like Draining Kiss or Disarming Voice.

I think we should give Jigglypuff a move similar to Rollout, but not sucking. Rollout seems to be initiated as a quick burst movement option on the ground, so I would be happy to see it more like Bowser Jr's Side B.

 

[Kirbeh]

I think we should give Jigglypuff a move similar to Rollout, but not sucking. Rollout seems to be initiated as a quick burst movement option on the ground, so I would be happy to see it more like Bowser Jr's Side B.

If we stick to a burst option, then I'd just make it so you can't charge Rollout. It comes out and travels a set distance. I'd also remove the end animation and make it jump cancelable to allow for follow ups.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Ryu and Ken should be changed a bit to reflect their gameplay in SF 6, specifically their Focus Attack Down Special should be changed into something more in line with SF 6's mechanics, don't know what though.

 

[Quillion]

While Cappy may not return, I think the cap throw on its own is still worth including. Mario always has his cap and adapting the cap throw into a Smash move, even without Cappy would still provide Mario with something fresh that plays into giving him more movement options. On the sole basis of being a more interesting move, I'd gladly take it over FLUDD, though on top of that, I think it would offer more utility and feels less jarring than Mario pulling out a random gadget.

Well, since you're admitting that you just think Cappy is cooler, fair enough.

What I'd do personally is bring back his Tornado special wholesale, since Mario does a lot of spinning while jumping anyway. If it really needs more canon flair, then add the white Luma and star effects to make it the Star Spin.

Then his down-air would just be his stomp, so like Dr. Mario's, but probably with a somewhat different animation.

I think a potential way of introducing the "star" mechanic would be to award them from landing counter hits. (In the traditional FG sense not Smash counter specials.)

That certainly would give his smashes' super armor and special zoom much more point than just looking cool. Then they could add on counter hits auto-healing the damage he just took.

I actually think Play Rough would be better suited going to another Pokémon (like Eevee if they decide to add it) as a sort of either pseudo command grab or Art of Fighting Ryo style multi-hit move.

As for Rollout, I'd rather see it get replaced outright for a projectile or ranged move like Echoed/Hyper Voice or a different Fairy type move like Draining Kiss or Disarming Voice.

Imagine if they gave Rest actual healing ability and gave it Draining Kiss on top of that.

Ryu and Ken should be changed a bit to reflect their gameplay in SF 6, specifically their Focus Attack Down Special should be changed into something more in line with SF 6's mechanics, don't know what though.

Denjin Charge for Ryu, and then a Heat Charge equivalent adapted to Ken could work, as that would cover both SF6 and 5 sort of.

 

[Kirbeh]

Well, since you're admitting that you just think Cappy is cooler, fair enough.

What I'd do personally is bring back his Tornado special wholesale, since Mario does a lot of spinning while jumping anyway. If it really needs more canon flair, then add the white Luma and star effects to make it the Star Spin.

It's not even Cappy that I want, just the action/function of the cap toss. What I'm suggesting is just incorporating the Cap Toss as move with or without Cappy. I'd happily take the Mario Tornado back as well. Replace Cape with the Cap Toss and Mario Tornado would be reinstated as Down Special.

As for Down Air, I'd actually go with the Ground Pound. Honestly surprised it's been omitted from his kit for so long. I know Bowser and Yoshi have similar attacks as specials, but Mario's wouldn't necessarily function the same as a normal. I imagine it as a simple fast falling aerial with maybe the added benefit of being jump cancelable on impact (with either an opponent or the ground) like it is in some of the games.

I'd also like for Mario's dive and long jump to be incorporated in some way. My main goal for a Mario overhaul is to make him more movement based. When it comes to his actual attacks, I don't actually want to change much outside of the previously mentioned adjustments to his specials. The Cap Toss being in service of giving him another movement option that flows well with his gameplay.

So, scenarios like:
-Get knocked far offstage
-Use double jump
-Use Cap Toss
-Dive into Cap Toss
-Bounce off of Cap Toss
-Super Jump Punch
-Successful recovery

Imagine if they gave Rest actual healing ability and gave it Draining Kiss on top of that.

If they wanted to completely retool Puff, I could see Rest as a purely utility based move that slowly heals for as long as you hold the button down. That sort of thing however would probably encourage a more camp based, keep away playstyle that people already dislike. If we actually got multiple supers per character ala SF/MvC, etc. I'd turn Rest into a Level 1 that functions as it currently does, still requiring precision, but being low cost now that it's tied to meter. The alternative would be to instantaneously heal something like 20-25%, for again, 1 bar of meter.

Denjin Charge for Ryu, and then a Heat Charge equivalent adapted to Ken could work, as that would cover both SF6 and 5 sort of.

I actually quite like the Focus Attack. It's got good utility and is pretty visually distinct too since it's got the ink effect from SF4. If anything, I'd add SF6 costumes for Ryu/Ken and change the black ink into colorful graffiti to mimic the Drive Impact from SF6 when using those costumes.

Then they do the same that they did with Terry and give them both Back Specials. Denjin or Hashogeki for Ryu and Dragon Lash for Ken.

 

[Glubbfubb]

A bunch of random thoughts:

Since Fire Emblem is pushing for female Corrin to be the canonical Corrin, I think it would make sense for female Corrin to be Corrin's default appearance in Smash.

Also replace Lucas' blue alt with an alt that gives him pink hair, similar to Kumatora, that way, we can have alts based on all of Lucas' party members.

Would it make sense for Jeanne to be Bayonetta's echo, what differences would she have.

If Mario gets his wedding outfit, why not Bowser as well, in fact lets also give Luigi and builder outfit too.

If Paper Mario would be added, they should continue the tradition of being the ones giving Palutena's guidance, but in this case its Goombario/Goombella using their Tattle skill on the opponent.

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from another thread:

What do you want the next Classic Mode to be like?

And here’s my idea, assuming the unique routes is a one-and-done deal:

NASB 2’s Arcade Mode has your character choosing between two fights after every couple battles with the occasional minigame, a mid-boss and then the final boss.

All of the fights against CPU opponents have specific themes like “Krusty Krab vs. Chum Bucket”, “Beaver Party”, etc.

Something like that in Smash—being able to choose which fight to do and having specific themes with special conditions—would be fun to see, along with integrating bosses other than the Hands.

 

[Quillion]

If Mario gets his wedding outfit, why not Bowser as well, in fact lets also give Luigi and builder outfit too.

Mario just needs a lot of alts in general considering all the outfits he's worn in the spin-offs and especially Odyssey.

If Paper Mario would be added, they should continue the tradition of being the ones giving Palutena's guidance, but in this case its Goombario/Goombella using their Tattle skill on the opponent.

That would actually work better than the voice-acted ones in a way since the lack of need to re-hire the VAs means that they can make them for the DLC characters.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I'd also like for Mario's dive and long jump to be incorporated in some way. My main goal for a Mario overhaul is to make him more movement based. When it comes to his actual attacks, I don't actually want to change much outside of the previously mentioned adjustments to his specials. The Cap Toss being in service of giving him another movement option that flows well with his gameplay.

I agree. Dive would make a good and intuitive side special, and I think Long Jump could service as a command input (Dash > Down + Attack), kind of like in the Mario series.

I think Smash could benefit from giving most characters one or two command inputs, it allows for extra moves to be squeezed into base kits, or provide alternative moves.
...and before anyone says command inputs aren't beginner-friendly, the Kirby series has command inputs. The whole franchise Smash is built off of? I think giving Mario one wouldn't hurt.

 

[NintenRob]

I agree. Dive would make a good and intuitive side special, and I think Long Jump could service as a command input (Dash > Down + Attack), kind of like in the Mario series.

I think Smash could benefit from giving most characters one or two command inputs, it allows for extra moves to be squeezed into base kits, or provide alternative moves.
...and before anyone says command inputs aren't beginner-friendly, the Kirby series has command inputs. The whole franchise Smash is built off of? I think giving Mario one wouldn't hurt.

Eeeeh, I'm gonna disagree here. I really don't want to be giving command inputs to more characters, I find them difficult enough as it with the fighting dudes (especially Kazuya)

As for the Kirby comparison? Smash is already a much faster paced game than Kirby. And doesn't have a pvp environment. Also there are way more characters in Smash then abilities in Kirby. Smash is so great because the core controls of every character is the same. Having to throw in command inputs that you need to memorise for each character is too much.

 

[Kirbeh]

I agree. Dive would make a good and intuitive side special, and I think Long Jump could service as a command input (Dash > Down + Attack), kind of like in the Mario series.

I think Smash could benefit from giving most characters one or two command inputs, it allows for extra moves to be squeezed into base kits, or provide alternative moves.
...and before anyone says command inputs aren't beginner-friendly, the Kirby series has command inputs. The whole franchise Smash is built off of? I think giving Mario one wouldn't hurt.

I don't agree on the command inputs in this case. While I'd like to have these moves, I don't want them to be bound to that style of input.

The alternative I would suggest would actually be two changes. The first is to put Smash attacks on their own button. This retains the simple input style, only adding one extra button to keep track of.

And I will argue that this doesn't overcomplicate things because a sizeable chunk of players already use the right stick to separate tilts/Smash attacks.

I'll also argue that it makes things easier for some players as well. It's purely anecdotal but when getting friends who don't play games like Smash to try it a common complaint is having both on the same button. That said, I don't think it's complex and is just something to get used to and learn. That however only strengthens my argument in favor of a dedicated Smash button. A dedicated Smash button would just be one small change to get used to nor would it even be mandatory to use.

This input would not be forced onto players. The ability to continue using the attack button would still be around but could be enabled or disabled like tap jump. And again, separate Smash attacks have already been a thing for ages via the stick mapping.

The second addition would be to add diagonal tilts and aerials. Currently some characters can angle their forward tilts while others get nothing. For those that can't angle their tilts, I would suggest adding a "low tilt" attack for example.

In Mario's case l would need to replace his high/low angled kicks but he'd get new moves in their place.
The low angle would produce the dive and would also serve as a "low" aerial. This would allow Mario to perform the dive from a stand still, while running, or while airborne.

The long jump would then slot in on the same low angle tilt input but when pressing the Smash button. The Smash button moves would be strictly grounded though. Pressing it in the air would produce regular aerials like the attack button.

I know there are a lot of players averse to any changes but bear in mind there have already been far more changes/additions than this jumping between some previous entries already.

The jump from 64 to Melee for example introduced Side Special, Up and Down Throws, chargeable Smash attacks, teching, spot and air dodging, etc.

Brawl added wall clinging, crawling, footstooling, swimming, gliding, Final Smashes, tripping...

My point being that plenty of changes and additions already happen from game to game and overall there's already plenty that is asked of the player to keep track of including on a per character basis.

The changes being suggested are pretty minor and in the case of the Smash button, purely optional. And Smash is already well known for it's customizability in that regard, so I don't see these as being "too complex" for Smash.

Sorry for the long post. And sorry Gorgonzales
Outside of the first two paragraphs, most of this post wound up not being addressed to you in particular.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I don't agree on the command inputs in this case. While I'd like to have these moves, I don't want them to be bound to that style of input.

The alternative I would suggest would actually be two changes. The first is to put Smash attacks on their own button. This retains the simple input style, only adding one extra button to keep track of.

And I will argue that this doesn't overcomplicate things because a sizeable chunk of players already use the right stick to separate tilts/Smash attacks.

I'll also argue that it makes things easier for some players as well. It's purely anecdotal but when getting friends who don't play games like Smash to try it a common complaint is having both on the same button. That said, I don't think it's complex and is just something to get used to and learn. That however only strengthens my argument in favor of a dedicated Smash button. A dedicated Smash button would just be one small change to get used to nor would it even be mandatory to use.

This input would not be forced onto players. The ability to continue using the attack button would still be around but could be enabled or disabled like tap jump. And again, separate Smash attacks have already been a thing for ages via the stick mapping.

The second addition would be to add diagonal tilts and aerials. Currently some characters can angle their forward tilts while others get nothing. For those that can't angle their tilts, I would suggest adding a "low tilt" attack for example.

In Mario's case l would need to replace his high/low angled kicks but he'd get new moves in their place.
The low angle would produce the dive and would also serve as a "low" aerial. This would allow Mario to perform the dive from a stand still, while running, or while airborne.

The long jump would then slot in on the same low angle tilt input but when pressing the Smash button. The Smash button moves would be strictly grounded though. Pressing it in the air would produce regular aerials like the attack button.

I know there are a lot of players averse to any changes but bear in mind there have already been far more changes/additions than this jumping between some previous entries already.

The jump from 64 to Melee for example introduced Side Special, Up and Down Throws, chargeable Smash attacks, teching, spot and air dodging, etc.

Brawl added wall clinging, crawling, footstooling, swimming, gliding, Final Smashes, tripping...

My point being that plenty of changes and additions already happen from game to game and overall there's already plenty that is asked of the player to keep track of including on a per character basis.

The changes being suggested are pretty minor and in the case of the Smash button, purely optional. And Smash is already well known for it's customizability in that regard, so I don't see these as being "too complex" for Smash.

Sorry for the long post. And sorry Gorgonzales
Outside of the first two paragraphs, most of this post wound up not being addressed to you in particular.

It's fine, this was actually an interesting read. I'm also in favor of a Smash-only button, and I wouldn't mind diagonal tilts; they'd expand move kits in a natural way and provide more grounded attack options. I think I'd prefer this to command inputs, actually.

 

[Quillion]

The alternative I would suggest would actually be two changes. The first is to put Smash attacks on their own button. This retains the simple input style, only adding one extra button to keep track of.

And I will argue that this doesn't overcomplicate things because a sizeable chunk of players already use the right stick to separate tilts/Smash attacks.

I'll also argue that it makes things easier for some players as well. It's purely anecdotal but when getting friends who don't play games like Smash to try it a common complaint is having both on the same button. That said, I don't think it's complex and is just something to get used to and learn. That however only strengthens my argument in favor of a dedicated Smash button. A dedicated Smash button would just be one small change to get used to nor would it even be mandatory to use.

This input would not be forced onto players. The ability to continue using the attack button would still be around but could be enabled or disabled like tap jump. And again, separate Smash attacks have already been a thing for ages via the stick mapping.

Fully agree with this. I've grown to hate tilts and smashes being very overlapped in terms of input, and I'd love for this to happen.

The second addition would be to add diagonal tilts and aerials. Currently some characters can angle their forward tilts while others get nothing. For those that can't angle their tilts, I would suggest adding a "low tilt" attack for example.

Honestly, I think that would be a bit much. I'd like to see back tilts and back smashes though, but I still think those need to obey the strict standard of them not being very different from forward tilts and smashes.

In Mario's case l would need to replace his high/low angled kicks but he'd get new moves in their place.
The low angle would produce the dive and would also serve as a "low" aerial. This would allow Mario to perform the dive from a stand still, while running, or while airborne.

The long jump would then slot in on the same low angle tilt input but when pressing the Smash button. The Smash button moves would be strictly grounded though. Pressing it in the air would produce regular aerials like the attack button.

I think for Mario what they should do is give him a gimmick... that's purely cosmetic. He should have special jumping animations that reference his jump variants from the 3D games, but they would all go the same height as his regular jumps.

• His backwards jump would be changed to the side flip animation.
• Jumping out of a run would become the long jump animation.
• Jumping out of a crouch would be the backflip animation.
• Timing your jumps as soon as you hit the ground from an earlier one would be the triple jump animation.

It would add flair without disturbing his current "beginner's shoto" moveset design.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I think for Mario what they should do is give him a gimmick... that's purely cosmetic. He should have special jumping animations that reference his jump variants from the 3D games, but they would all go the same height as his regular jumps.

He could also stick his arms out if you dash for long enough, with a faint maxed out P-meter noise playing too.

 

[Glubbfubb]

NGL I want the next game to be cel shaded instead of realistic

 

[Kirbeh]

Honestly, I think that would be a bit much. I'd like to see back tilts and back smashes though, but I still think those need to obey the strict standard of them not being very different from forward tilts and smashes.

Hard disagree here tbh. I don't see how something already in the game but for more characters is too much. You then go on to ask for something extremely similar? I don't follow.

I think for Mario what they should do is give him a gimmick... that's purely cosmetic. He should have special jumping animations that reference his jump variants from the 3D games, but they would all go the same height as his regular jumps.

• His backwards jump would be changed to the side flip animation.
• Jumping out of a run would become the long jump animation.
• Jumping out of a crouch would be the backflip animation.
• Timing your jumps as soon as you hit the ground from an earlier one would be the triple jump animation.

It would add flair without disturbing his current "beginner's shoto" moveset design.

Aesthetic changes for more personality are fine, but I'll have to disagree with some of these as well.

• Backflip is already present. It can also already be done out of a crouch.
• Long jump going in a high arc instead of actually being a long jump would just look awkward. I'm much rather it continues to be omitted over being implemented poorly.

The other two are more workable though, I'd be fine with those.

• Back jumping out of a run is currently also a backflip, using the side jump animation would still follow the same arc and works just fine.
• The triple jump could be purely aesthetic or could even retain the gained height. Even with height gain on subsequent jumps, it would still be more of a "just for fun" easter egg as opposed to having much utility in actual gameplay so it'd be fine imo.

And to address Mario's beginner move set, I don't see how giving him access to a dive or long jump really changes that. While he's shoto inspired, he isn't a one-to-one translation of that play style, never has been. I agree that he should remain an all-rounder but what about the latter two moves disrupt that?

The dive aids in recovery/air mobility. The long jump is a grounded gap closer, but still perfectly punishable. They expand on his abilities as a very mobile/agile character. You get some additional moves to play around with, but the ability to pick him up easily does not change.

 

[Quillion]

Hard disagree here tbh. I don't see how something already in the game but for more characters is too much. You then go on to ask for something extremely similar? I don't follow.

Yes, angling tilts and smashes is already in the game, but you're asking for those angled tilts to be entirely different moves. It's them being entirely different moves that I disagree with.

Aesthetic changes for more personality are fine, but I'll have to disagree with some of these as well.

• Backflip is already present. It can also already be done out of a crouch.

I know; that's why I said I would change it.

• Long jump going in a high arc instead of actually being a long jump would just look awkward. I'm much rather it continues to be omitted over being implemented poorly.

Yeah, that one would have to accompany an increase in jump momentum. Which I do support don't get me wrong, though I also think that has to accompany a decrease in the mobility gulf between fast and slow characters.

• Back jumping out of a run is currently also a backflip, using the side jump animation would still follow the same arc and works just fine.

Back jumping in general is the backflip. Again, I would change it so that the back jump entirely is the side flip.

And to address Mario's beginner move set, I don't see how giving him access to a dive or long jump really changes that. While he's shoto inspired, he isn't a one-to-one translation of that play style, never has been. I agree that he should remain an all-rounder but what about the latter two moves disrupt that?

The dive aids in recovery/air mobility. The long jump is a grounded gap closer, but still perfectly punishable. They expand on his abilities as a very mobile/agile character. You get some additional moves to play around with, but the ability to pick him up easily does not change.

They'd be cool moves... but Mario just doesn't have any room for them.

Maybe Mario needs a(nother) Isabelle-type dumping ground for moves he doesn't have room for.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yes, angling tilts and smashes is already in the game, but you're asking for those angled tilts to be entirely different moves. It's them being entirely different moves that I disagree with.

My question is more so why you take issue with that? Completely different moves mapped to diagonal inputs is pretty standard in fighting games. Smash already uses these inputs albeit for different angles of the same attack. Though there are a few cases where it results in different moves; (normalsSmash attacks.) In most cases, characters with angled f-tilts would retain these attacks. Mario is the exception for my example because I wanted to add more to his arsenal. On the other side of things, this would simply give new moves to characters who can't angle F-Tilt like , etc.

I just find it odd that you would veto diagonal tilts but then ask for Back Tilt/Smash which also takes up the spot of existing moves being F-Tilt/Smash. I'd also like to ask what you have in mind for those while we're at it.

I know; that's why I said I would change it.

But why would you make it less accurate instead of just adding the side flip to back jumping out of a dash? That way they're both still present while providing good attention to detail.

Yeah, that one would have to accompany an increase in jump momentum. Which I do support don't get me wrong, though I also think that has to accompany a decrease in the mobility gulf between fast and slow characters.

Did you have anything in particular in mind for this?

They'd be cool moves... but Mario just doesn't have any room for them.

Maybe Mario needs a(nother) Isabelle-type dumping ground for moves he doesn't have room for.

I again refer to your call for Back Tilt/Smash (surprised you didn't include special given the precedent from Terry?) You can't say there's no room while asking for expansions to the move pool.

If the number of moves doesn't see an increase, then I agree, there's no room and these moves will just continue to not be implemented. But if we're entertaining expansions to move sets I think they're fair suggestions. We can debate what moves fit best and where, but if we're both arguing in favor of making room for more then it's an odd statement to make.

 

[Quillion]

My question is more so why you take issue with that? Completely different moves mapped to diagonal inputs is pretty standard in fighting games. Smash already uses these inputs albeit for different angles of the same attack. Though there are a few cases where it results in different moves; (normalsSmash attacks.) In most cases, characters with angled f-tilts would retain these attacks. Mario is the exception for my example because I wanted to add more to his arsenal. On the other side of things, this would simply give new moves to characters who can't angle F-Tilt like , etc.

I just find it odd that you would veto diagonal tilts but then ask for Back Tilt/Smash which also takes up the spot of existing moves being F-Tilt/Smash. I'd also like to ask what you have in mind for those while we're at it.

I guess that would be fine as long as they also obey the standard of "not so different from horizontal side tilt". Making them drastically different would be too punishing to those who miss inputs.

But why would you make it less accurate instead of just adding the side flip to back jumping out of a dash? That way they're both still present while providing good attention to detail.

Bruh, if you wanted to make it as accurate as possible, Mario wouldn't have a back jump animation to begin with. But sure, that could work too.

I again refer to your call for Back Tilt/Smash (surprised you didn't include special given the precedent from Terry?) You can't say there's no room while asking for expansions to the move pool.

If the number of moves doesn't see an increase, then I agree, there's no room and these moves will just continue to not be implemented. But if we're entertaining expansions to move sets I think they're fair suggestions. We can debate what moves fit best and where, but if we're both arguing in favor of making room for more then it's an odd statement to make.

My issue with this is, in addition to the lack of room as it stands and the fact that drastically different diagonal tilts punishes missed inputs, you also can't just add moves with no relation to their directional input. Like, imagine if a ground pound move was mapped to Up-B (without any of the arcing jumps that Ike's or Dedede's provide).

At least expanding on "back attacks" could add some options without risking a lot of missed inputs on diagonal tilts. Though it should be noted that even Terry has two different "rush forward" specials for his two Side-Bs, so I'm sure even the dev team realizes issues with standing and grounded turnarounds right now.

 

[Kirbeh]

I guess that would be fine as long as they also obey the standard of "not so different from horizontal side tilt". Making them drastically different would be too punishing to those who miss inputs.

My issue with this is, in addition to the lack of room as it stands and the fact that drastically different diagonal tilts punishes missed inputs, you also can't just add moves with no relation to their directional input. Like, imagine if a ground pound move was mapped to Up-B (without any of the arcing jumps that Ike's or Dedede's provide).

At least expanding on "back attacks" could add some options without risking a lot of missed inputs on diagonal tilts. Though it should be noted that even Terry has two different "rush forward" specials for his two Side-Bs, so I'm sure even the dev team realizes issues with standing and grounded turnarounds right now.

I honestly don't feel as though it's that big an ask of players to remember one or two more attacks. Especially in a case where it'd only apply to a handful of characters anyway. As I said earlier, the vast majority of characters with angled tilts would still keep those tilts in this scenario.

Overall, I think there's room for variation. Afterall, some down tilts are sliding moves , some forward tilts are full ground combos or random reflectors (for some reason?) Smash attacks too.

As for misinputs, you still have people accidentally throwing out Smash attacks and the FG crew says hi. (I will note though, that I actually don't like the way that they're currently handled.) One of the reasons I advocate for a dedicated Smash button and diagonal inputs in the first place is to better translate/map their moves. Using Ryu as an example, (while also addressing you're concern over lack of relation between attack and input, which I was not suggesting at all):

In a scenario where both the Smash button and diagonals are adopted, Collarbone Breaker, due to the arc of the attack and high power, would get moved to the diagonal input on the Smash button. A downward, diagonal punch that intuitively matches the input direction and the button strength (with Smash acting as our pseudo Heavy Punch).

Continuing with Ryu, I'd also argue that Solar Plexus Strike would work as the standard diagonal attack input. The attack arc is not diagonal itself, but the partial forward motion can serve as part of Ryu stepping in to perform the attack. His normal f-tilt (medium kick) would be the faster, safer option you already expect from a lot of f-tilts, while the diagonal would the slower, higher commitment option.

Going back to the Mario example, I placed dive on this input, so I'll explain why I think it works. Mario when diving on the ground would basically be throwing himself to the ground while sliding forward a little bit. The movement being carried out is short but diagonal. Doing it out of a run would have him slide a little further. Performing it in the air would be a full-on quickly descending dive. All of these match their game counterparts and all still carry Mario diagonally down and forward.

I will reiterate, I don't think diagonal inputs are that big an ask. They're still simple, one direction inputs. No motions or any other stuff, just an expansion of what we already have. It'd just be adding the ordinal directions to our current cardinal inputs (as was always intended ) Plus, it's really just the one. Low forward would net a couple characters a new move and maybe, maybe someone gets high forward. (Maybe Sakurai really likes Ryu's hopping roundhouse from Alpha or something.)

If you're willing, I'd like to hear your ideas for Back moves. Given your concern over the diagonals, I'm surprised you favor these when they remove the ability to quickly turn around and retaliate with f-tilt. Unless you intend for these to do just that? In which case, I ask if there's any additional utility or are these simply new animations with the same function?

Bruh, if you wanted to make it as accurate as possible, Mario wouldn't have a back jump animation to begin with. But sure, that could work too.

I guess I was starting to get into the territory of splitting hairs, sorry about that. I still stand by my version though; side jumping from a stand still was only ever a thing in Sunshine. If FLUDD sticks around though...

 

[Quillion]

As for misinputs, you still have people accidentally throwing out Smash attacks and the FG crew says hi. (I will note though, that I actually don't like the way that they're currently handled.) One of the reasons I advocate for a dedicated Smash button and diagonal inputs in the first place is to better translate/map their moves.

I dislike how the tradfighter characters are handled as well, and that's why I don't want other characters to receive their complications.

Though, since you're specific about characters only getting diagonal down moves whereas only some characters get diagonal up moves, I propose an alternative.

Since we both want an option to map Smashes to its own button (say Y in this case), how about they add neutral Ys, dash Ys, and neutral aerial Ys? That would add more options rather than have to make awkward changes to the input stick angles.
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Did you have anything in particular in mind for [a decrease in the mobility gulf between fast and slow characters.]?

Missed this one earlier. All I really want to do is make the slow characters a lot faster while leaving the fast characters only slightly changed at most. And that's on top of increasing jump momentum again.
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Anyway, I've also been mulling about the idea of a "dash roll" action. It would be input by running, then shielding while holding forward on the run. It would be different from the usual forward roll as it would transition back into a run instead of a cross-up turnaround.

I thought of this since "approaching defense" options are rather limited, and this could help the more close-range characters deal with zoning.

 

[Perkilator]

A well-known Smash YouTuber has his own ideas for Adventure Mode, which primarily involves branching paths through worlds of various difficulties.

 

[Quillion]

They should make it so that up-tilts can be cancelled with a jump. Maybe down-tilts too considering a lot of them launch upwards now.

Not only is this idea taken straight from Marvel vs Capcom-type fighters, but Falco's Shine in Melee essentially acted this way already.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Splatoon Side Order kind of made me want a roguelike Dungeon mode for Smash.