Ideal methods against passive players/fishers

[ThatRandomGuy42]

One thing I've had some issues with are players who wait for you to do stuff and punish. For some reason, I can rarely work out what to do and has cost me tourney sets in the past.
Any ideas on what can be done against - what a friend of mine calls - "fishermen"?

 

[Conn1496]

I like to pressure with tomes and such. Play patient and safe, and throw out fast moves to bait them into taking the first move. Arcfire is incredibly useful against this type of play since if they shield it or spot-dodge, they get put at a big disadvantage. You can even force a roll into it if you read hard enough. Arcthunder also serves a similar purpose, just be careful it doesn't get reflected.

Other than that, you can bait rolls by conditioning them to expect Arcfire/thunder, since they can't safely shield them, and go from there. Also remember that Robin is a very good grappler, and her Levin is a force to be reckoned with. I'm pretty sure B-air is safe on shield with Levin if spaced correctly, and it's insanely fast. Just remember not to neglect your Levin, and it'll work wonders for you.

Also, assess your opponents character and try to pressure at a range that benefits you. Characters like R.O.B. and Link might give you trouble at range, but at mid/close range, you might find you have a surprising advantage over them. Where C.Falcon and Little Mac, for example, need you to space them and create walls that force poor approaches. It's less likely you'll play a faster character who waits for you though, but it is a thing that happens, so do keep it in mind.

They can't wait, or space you out forever. Make the most of trapping moves and try to safely overwhelm them until they're conditioned into putting themselves at a weak defensive position - and punish them for things they have no control over, like having to roll away from Arcfire, or not being able to beat your projectile game.

It's hard to pin down a specific strategy all the time, but you do have a lot of tools to work with, so don't neglect a single one - people don't expect much from Robin in terms of attack diversity so you have a lot of mix-ups and traps available. Those are the key to winning most MUs.

Hope this helps somehow!

 

[FieryRebirth]

Robin, surprisingly by good kit design, is not only a trapper but like an actual tactician. His kit gives him the ability to utilize and "outwit" opponents that easily overpower him like speedy characters. He's not completely like Snake from Brawl. Even against MUs against... like Mario, it's possible to make the player look dumb by taking full advantage of the situation and doing the unexpected.

However, this does not mean you cannot expect the unexpected, such as: opponents slipping out of Arcfire/Arcthunder and ruining your trap because of the weird hitbox angle, or opponents able to get out of your D-throw-Windjab combo quickly. I admit, moments like that FRUSTRATE me and make me a bit more aggressive as a result. But as mentioned: patience is key to winning against the more difficult MUs.

 

[Wnyke]

I have similar issues, and I have been "analyzing" the escenarios along with the options robin has...

Ok, I have classified the mental state of the defensive players in 4 diferent ones ordered by conplexity (imo): the defensive player that relies on shielding, the one that runs away, the evasive and the walling style...

Ok so we have those mentalities and you need to study the first seconds of the match and find out which one your opponent is as soon as you can, and if at some point during the match they shift gears, you need to keep eye on this changes...

Once you define the type of defense you are facing is time for the pressure, always play safe against this kind of players and if you are on the lead don't over commit, even run away if necessary...

Vs shielding dude: 1. throw arcfire along with thunder if you get lucky the shield damage would be enough for thunder to hit, 2. Aproach by walking and do preventives d.tilts, 3. If you are close enough do a running away arcfire/pivot f.tilt and if your opponents keeps shield up or do a running shield mix it up with a reverse foxtrot grab (I don't know how you call this, trot dance or whatever), 4. Nosferatu while falling or while they are in platforms, shield grabbers hate this one specially.

Vs the running away: 1. Try to keep a distance of a thunder away from your opponent and pressure with thunders (duh), 2. Throw sh moving away f.airs/n.airs to the air (bronze ones are good enough), 3. Do preventives d.tilts along with arcfires from distance advancing by walking a little bit, 4. Empty hops into preventive jabs if close or any thunder variation(for some reason works)

Vs evasive dude (rolling/spotdodge): 1. throw preventive arcfires and use arcthunder to catch them, 2. Walk and throw d.smash if close to the ledge to catch them, 3. Use sh n.airs and reverse n.airs, 4. Arcthunder and thoron can be used too from a safe distance, 5. Running away f.tilts can be used too, mixing it up with pivot grabs

Vs the wall: 1. Match up knowledge is necessary specially endlag duration of the moves your oponents throws, 2. Try to keep yourself close vs other projectiles characters and at least 1/2 thunder away against bad/none projectiles characters, 3. Try to outrange them with f.air, 4. Run away when you are unsure of what to do next while getting hit.

Books/levin sword are your best weapons to punish, so catch them, if they hit a shield catch them... use the z-drop attack to trick opponents... throw the book up use a safe move to approach a little and if you fail recatch (the book will help you covering rolls and limit movement).
Remember that against certain type of mentality nosferatu may be useless or arcfire, so you can spend all the uses to get a book without worrying about your move being unavailable...

Also once you get a hit they'll be force to do a move, so capitalize on it as much as you can, and punish misplays even with little damage... don't be afraid to return to neutral if you are unsure of a move hitting... and work on your safe edguard (thunder->f.air not a true combo but very safe), force a.dodges and condition them by not punishing them (or doing a weak punish) until they are at kill percents or have lost their 2nd jump.

Finally never get impatient, this is what they want, if they are not forcing you to make a move... then why should you over commit???... play safe, and if they keep stalling and you are winning take your time...

Long post... but this is actually a very good question...I hope my "notes" help you tipping the scales... and maybe some others give away their tips too...

 

[Dream Cancel]

The name of the game is safety. Don't take the bait since they are "fishing" for you to bite. In order for you to avoid the bait, you need a safe move that cannot be punished. I used to struggle with this as a Rosalina player when players would chill out at the ledge or on the Smashville platform. I realized that I could use Luma more to create safe walls of pressure to dissuade my opponent from doing that.

As Robin, and as any character really, you want safe poke, safe shield pressure, and safe stage control. Levin Aerials, Arcfire, and your entire Thunder Tome is great at accomplishing this. Jab is decent with the Fire Jab 3. D-Tilt, F-Tilt, and Nair are decent as well.

This sounds easy in theory, but in my early Smash days I struggled with this quite a bit because I didn't know how to deal with it. TL;DR Don't over-commit.