IC's Bair

[Binx]

IC's bair is one of the best in the game, it comes out blazing fast has a disjointed hitbox for huge priority has great range and best of all it only has 4 frames of lag when landing if autocanceled, also its like hitting with a(2) smash attack(s).

My message to the ICs of this community is to use this move more. It is a great spacing tool and even if they shield the stun they have should be longer than your stun and is enough time to dash away and start being trixy.

One of the tactics that makes Marth so powerful is that he can fair right outside of your attack range and even if he doesnt hit you he does not have to worry as much about being threatened, he can stand in place outside of the range of any of your options and fair repeatedly until you make a move or he suprises you with a fair that is going towards you. If Marth is in that threat area he can dash in at any time and hit you, and you can't really do anything, Marth is completely in control at that range and it can be very taxing for the person on the defense, Ice Climbers can do this with bair, although not quite as effective it is still a powerful and underutilized tool.

 

[Lixivium]

I use this move too much already...it's arguably IC's best aerial, but it's not "one of the best in the game" by a long shot.

 

[Binx]

it's one of the best bairs, the only set back I can find with it is the narrow hitbox.

 

[Lixivium]

Characters with better B-airs:

Marth
Shiek
Fox
Falco
Peach
Jigglypuff
DK
Samus
Zelda
Doc
Mario
Luigi

 

[Kyu Puff]

And what makes those better? They may be easier to implement into that character's game, but looking at it through some kind of speed/power ratio (although probably not sufficient way to calculate including range and priority) ICs' b-air would have to be up there.

 

[Binx]

Characters that actually have better bairs

Marth
Zelda

I don't know why you think that hanging bairs make them so much better but IC's bair has way more priority than any of those save Marth and Zelda, also you forgot Captain Falcon, his bair hangs too making it soo much better than IC's bair. Marth's is better because of range, but its arguable because it doesnt kill as reliably and it doesnt do as much damage, Zelda is fine she prolly has the best bair in the game. Fox and Falco are faster and thus have easier time landing bairs, you also dont need to be as precise with them because they hang for a short time, this shouldnt be a factor though because then aiming makes ICs bair better IMO. Peach is arguable but I still think ICs bair is a better move.

Those characters may all be able to use their bair more often, or in more situations but its the physics of the characters that make those moves work better for them, like if Jiggs had ICs bair she would be broken as hell, because it would be doing like 13 damage and knocking people crazy far. Jiggs is better at using a worse move.

 

[Lixivium]

Power means next to nothing if you can't ever hit with a move (see: Volcano Kick, fully charged Flare Blade, etc.) I consider moves in terms of usefulness.

Except for Jigglypuff and Samus, ALL those characters have B-airs that come out faster and lasts longer. Jigglypuff and Samus' B-air come out only 1 frame slower than IC's B-air and outranges it by a wide margin. B-air's disjointed hitbox doesn't make up for its short range and short duration.


I will make this correction: if both IC's are in play, then only Marth, Sheik, and Peach, and Zelda clearly have a better B-air. Everyone else's B-air on that list is as good as IC's B-air.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Hey, hey hey. Let's not argue.

IC Bair is good. Use it if you don't. Keep using it if you already do.

/thread

 

[Binx]

I am pretty sure you can hit extended limbs though, so even if they are using their bair you could swing at an exposed foot correct? also the speed of anyones bair doesnt make that much of a difference, it's only a few frames here and there for all characters.

Just trying to throw out some ideas to get discussion going in the IC board.

 

[Takumaru]

You at least have to give jigglypuff a better B-air rating than ICs. ICs don't base their entire game around their B-air and jiggles does, with good reason. Anyway, I think you should just compile all your topics with tid-bits of IC information into one nice little topic, binx.

 

[Binx]

You at least have to give jigglypuff a better B-air rating than ICs. ICs don't base their entire game around their B-air and jiggles does, with good reason. Anyway, I think you should just compile all your topics with tid-bits of IC information into one nice little topic, binx.

Jiggs doesnt have a better bair though... the reason Jiggs bases her entire game on her bair is because it's *her* best aerial not because its *the* best aerial, also her jump physics makes her better with spammed aerials than other characters, she is floaty and has 5 midair jumps, what do you expect? IC's bair is better, but ICs themselves are not as good at using it as other characters.

It's the same way that Fox has a better grab than Bowser, they both come out in the same number of frames I am pretty sure but Fox can get grabs easier because of his physics, IE: he is faster and falls faster making it easier to get tricky/unexpected grabs. Although this is a bad example since fox's uthrow also is easier to combo out of than any of bowser's throws.

As for the combining tid bits section, nahh. I do that all the time and no one reads or responds to the topics, this way at least there is a chance for multiple discusions of different theories, if these work for people maybe someone can add them into a guide or something, but for now I feel it's important to have more discussion, people should start more good topics.

for the record I don't think this qualifies yet but who knows.

 

[PB&J]

i agree with binx..the bair is very effective

 

[Wobbles]

IC's bear is the best in the game

Fixed

On topic:

Their b-air is a pretty good move, yes. It comes out very fast, it has good reach, and when not DI'ed is an incredible killing move. It does good damage when both IC's are together and it can autocancel out of a short hop. And lastly, because of it's high stun and the double hit, it gets good stun against shields, making it fairly safe against them--particularly if you hit with the tip. But it's very, very hard to hit with.

There are a couple of reasons why. 1) It's got a very narrow hitbox. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that you have two, so if you fast fall as you b-air you cover a surprising amount of room with it... but it's still really hard to connect with. 2) It's their back-air. They don't have the horizontal speed to cross up an opponent's shield with it--which would be a bad idea even if you had the opportunity, just because you have so many better options--and you have to wavedash in while facing away to get the speed necessary to move in range with it. This means you have to judge the b-air from far away if you want it to connect.

That being said, it's still very good. Just because it is hard to use well doesn't mean it isn't worth LEARNING to use well... just be aware that implementing it will take a lot of practice.

 

[Binx]

ROFL @ Wobbles, Captain falcon judges his aerials from far away, no one give him lip about it... or they get kneed.

 

[siresword]

Fixed

lolol i remember playing ice climber and that bear chases you

anyway i was just going to continue what wobbles was saying and ask a question of my own :

in many of chudat's vids you see him wd into shffl'd bairs like a fox or falco would do to edgeguard. (im talking about sitting on the stage and using bairs instead of hanging bairs.) is he the only one doing this ? i know he also does edgeguard desynchs but it seems to me that he sits and spams the bair's in his matches.
when wobbles was talking about implementing bairs into one's game, does that mean to learn them situationally only ?

 

[Speedsk8er]

There are plenty of times where Bair has set me up for desynch combos.

Once I was playing against someone who was hella pressuring me(I don't deal with pressure well). I retreating Baired, landing desynch into a SH Popo-block into a SH-nanapult blizzard. It covered a decent amount of space because the block is on the ground, Nana's flying at you and Popo's following, ready for whatever you decide to do.

 

[Wobbles]

Binx: He can dash dance on a dime and has, strictly speaking, 0 frames of lag out of a dash dance. With IC's you get the requisite 15+ frames of wavedash lag--12 frames of air dodge lag, 3 frames for jumping, and more if you don't wavedash perfectly--plus the jump, the aerial start up, and any imperfection on your part added in. Falcon gets a lot more control

sire: You can spam the b-air relatively safely since it auto-cancels. The problem is that spamming it doesn't really do anything, and a lot of characters still have stuff that out ranges it, or can sneak under it, or go over it. Truthfully, I'm not very proficient with b-air--though I really should be --so I'm not exactly the best person to ask. In fact, I don't even know why I'm posting about it.

 

[Binx]

I am just comparing it to similar tactics, I am not saying its the best move IC's have but most ICs spend SOOO much time on the ground where they are strongest and lose a lot of potential suprise factor because of it. Also if your opponent thinks you will wavedash and do a bair but you turn and grab or fsmash? I dunno just more options that people never use, its much harder to predict someone when they switch up 3 moves instead of 2.

Also if you stand just outside of their punishing range and do one short hop bair, most players reflex is to wait a second and see what you will do, if you wavedash at the earliest possible frame after a short hop bair you can confuse a lot of players and get a free grab or an upsmash if you think they have good reflexes and might jump rather than roll away.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, I see your point, I'm just answering what I find questionable in your posts :D I'm trying to use more b-air as well because at the very least it'll mean less damage decay on down-smashes, grabs, and up-airs.

 

[Binx]

Well, I see your point, I'm just answering what I find questionable in your posts :D I'm trying to use more b-air as well because at the very least it'll mean less damage decay on down-smashes, grabs, and up-airs.

It's appreciated Wobbles, I didn't mean to say it was as good for ICs as for falcon, but reading it again it does seem that way, so good call. You almost always have something rediculously awesome to say and the times you don't its just really good =D.

 

[siresword]

sire: You can spam the b-air relatively safely since it auto-cancels. The problem is that spamming it doesn't really do anything, and a lot of characters still have stuff that out ranges it, or can sneak under it, or go over it. Truthfully, I'm not very proficient with b-air--though I really should be --so I'm not exactly the best person to ask. In fact, I don't even know why I'm posting about it.

reply much appreciated good sir.

its very true that IC's bair is hard to incorporate into one's game, and i guess we all have to practice..?

(has nothing to contribute )

 

[sk8tinGam0r]

I will make this correction: if both IC's are in play, then only Marth, Sheik, and Peach, and Zelda clearly have a better B-air. Everyone else's B-air on that list is as good as IC's B-air.

ill agree with that. i main doc and second IC. docs b-air is amazing, not becuase of the power or knockback. in my opinion its because of gimpability (yes i made that word up ) docs b-air can gimp almost any char at low %. it has good priority and keeps you spaced well if u use in on the stage. b-air for each char is different and does different things for the IC the backair is a great move to use i dont use it enough and know that i should.

 

[Binx]

ill agree with that. i main doc and second IC. docs b-air is amazing, not becuase of the power or knockback. in my opinion its because of gimpability (yes i made that word up ) docs b-air can gimp almost any char at low %. it has good priority and keeps you spaced well if u use in on the stage. b-air for each char is different and does different things for the IC the backair is a great move to use i dont use it enough and know that i should.

No, I dont think you made up the word gimpability, I have heard it at least a dozen times in much older threads.

Ok... ICs iceblock has great gimpability, or dair, or their bair also, doc has more control, and it hangs so you can fall on people with it, ICs bair is more for on the stage stuff than edgeguarding. They already have fantastic edge guards with desynched smash hogs and what not.