I want Mario to be a good character

[A2ZOMG]

Something I think you fail to realize is that it doesn't actually take that much time to break down a game. You're really underselling that this is the age of internet and social media, and we already have basically complete frame data and other things for every character in this game. And where do you even begin to make "luck" relevant in any matchup that isn't Luigi, G&W, or Peach? Seriously? You think matchups are "luck"?

No definitive matchups you say. SERIOUSLY? Please explain why the tournament scene is dominated by Diddy and Sheik. It certainly wouldn't be so if we had no definitive clue about matchups. Clearly, you don't have an argument.

And really, it's not hard to see why Mario has mostly unfavorable matchups in this game. He does a very poor job of controlling midrange with a terrible projectile and generally below average forward facing options. Most of his better options in neutral aren't even always super rewarding, and he does poorly when put in bad positions. And then people cite getting kills with U-smash, when in the first place Mario has very poor options for pressuring people into it. Nobody dies to Mario's U-air, and it's also very difficult for Mario to kill his opponent for recovering low or ledge resetting.

You basically refuse to even acknowledge these problems though I've mentioned them more than once, and you seriously want to say I have no other reasons besides matchups?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

To be fair, poor matchups don't always make a character terrible. For example, in melee, Yoshi has awful MUs, but still is considered one of the better mid-tier characters as players such as amsa have shown what he is capable of.

 

[Dobbston]

If Mario had Dr. Mario's tornado and Dair I doubt there would be any issue at all.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Something I think you fail to realize is that it doesn't actually take that much time to break down a game. You're really underselling that this is the age of internet and social media, and we already have basically complete frame data and other things for every character in this game. And where do you even begin to make "luck" relevant in any matchup that isn't Luigi, G&W, or Peach? Seriously? You think matchups are "luck"?

No definitive matchups you say. SERIOUSLY? Please explain why the tournament scene is dominated by Diddy and Sheik. It certainly wouldn't be so if we had no definitive clue about matchups. Clearly, you don't have an argument.

And really, it's not hard to see why Mario has mostly unfavorable matchups in this game. He does a very poor job of controlling midrange with a terrible projectile and generally below average forward facing options. Most of his better options in neutral aren't even always super rewarding, and he does poorly when put in bad positions. And then people cite getting kills with U-smash, when in the first place Mario has very poor options for pressuring people into it. Nobody dies to Mario's U-air, and it's also very difficult for Mario to kill his opponent for recovering low or ledge resetting.

You basically refuse to even acknowledge these problems though I've mentioned them more than once, and you seriously want to say I have no other reasons besides matchups?

You just gave me 3 examples, Luigi, Peach and Game & Watch. There you go. I didn't say matchups were luck. Read closely and you'll see that I said that matchups don't account for luck, which can be a deciding factor in a match. Like those three you just mentioned.
Again, if you took the time to read you'd know that I didn't say that you had no clue about matchups, I said that there were no definitive matchups. It's all opinions right now. Which is exactly what makes up 90% of your argument (and I use the term loosely). For one, you called Mario's fireballs terrible, which is reason enough for me to believe that you are talking out of your ass.
You know, you seem to be the only one who has any of these problems. So because you say Mario is bad it's automatically a fact, is that it? It's pretty much you against the world. You've given me YOUR opinions on why Mario is bad, but with all due respect, your opinions don't mean much at all. If you had cold, hard facts and evidence, then maybe. But as it stands this is you listing your experiences and opinions. What may be a "terrible projectile" to you is a great one to somebody else. And about this matchup bull****,

To be fair, poor matchups don't always make a character terrible. For example, in melee, Yoshi has awful MUs, but still is considered one of the better mid-tier characters as players such as amsa have shown what he is capable of.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Well maybe I could've, but I didn't, so the credit goes to you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Cool, you reinforced my point that you don't have an argument. I've already broken down tools, situations, and matchups. And you don't have a response besides saying it is an "opinion".

It should be very easy to defend a bold statement that Mario is magically top 10. Which you can't, clearly.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Cool, you reinforced my point that you don't have an argument. I've already broken down tools, situations, and matchups. And you don't have a response besides saying it is an "opinion".

It should be very easy to defend a bold statement that Mario is magically top 10. Which you can't, clearly.

Notice how you've convinced absolutely no one that Mario is bad. Says a lot about your point. You're just blathering on like a fool now. At this point, I don't even think you've convinced yourself. You're just telling yourself what you want to hear. I see, you wanna make yourself look like some kinda low tier hero, is that it? Now, I gave you a response, and you just shrug it off because you don't have an answer to it. If you want to keep being pessimistic, go ahead. Meanwhile, everybody is enjoying what Mario has to offer while you sit there whining about how he has no good "matchups".

 

[HeroMystic]

@ MarioMeteor

Cool down with the insults. While I understand your point there's no need to make it personal.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not maining a character that I don't believe has great competitive assets or much room for interesting development (basically he's watered down Brawl Mario, something I've already invested a ton into), though for that matter I know I play an above average Mario and I've been told by others locally to main him due to my skill with the character. More importantly I am exceptionally angry at professional level players who feed misinformation to the community and basically are never available for discussion. Misinformation that Mario is good supposedly because of his combo game and neutral, both of which are definitely not that great.

Also you have basically done absolutely nothing to defend your points either. You seem awfully desperate to insist I'm wrong. By all means, please do. I want Mario to be good. But I have every logical reason to believe he is nowhere near top 10, but more likely bottom 20 when I factor tools and matchups. Once people play better midrange against Mario, do the correct responses to escape his combos, take advantage of his poor forward facing options, and simply avoid choosing defensive responses that he can punish with Smashes, he's not a great character by any means. This is stuff I do to win against every Mario user I play against, and I'm not a top level player by any means.

The character I actually main is considered bottom 20 by most people...and I know his matchup against Mario is favorable. Sure, Ganondorf probably doesn't matter in the big picture, but factor that along with Mario not doing explicitly well against most of the actually good characters...where do you get a top 10 argument on default settings?

 

[MarioMeteor]

@ MarioMeteor

Cool down with the insults. While I understand your point there's no need to make it personal.

Insults? Aside from maybe pessimistic I didn't really insult him. Even then, "pessimistic" is hardly an insult.

 

[HeroMystic]

Insults? Aside from maybe pessimistic I didn't really insult him. Even then, "pessimistic" is hardly an insult.

I understand they weren't direct insults but the implications were enough to get me to say something. Just keep it polite.

If you want to talk about it more PM me. Lets keep ot on topic.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I understand they weren't direct insults but the implications were enough to get me to say something. Just keep it polite.

If you want to talk about it more PM me. Lets keep ot on topic.

I'm curious, what do YOU think about it? You've taken a backseat to the discussion, but I'm interested, is there anything you have to say?

 

[Dobbston]

I agree that Mario still has some of the same problems from Brawl but now he has some safer moves, like Dtilt. Mario's kill power is still one of his biggest issues but at least he now has some good throw combos that will kill at high percents. Also, even though his Up B OOS punish isn't as amazing as Dr. Mario's it's still a fast move that can punish a lot of moves on guard. Mario's Uair is great too.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm curious, what do YOU think about it? You've taken a backseat to the discussion, but I'm interested, is there anything you have to say?

I've taken a backseat because my opinion is constantly changing. Unlike the majority of the Mario mains here, I frequent tournaments, so I get first-hand experience on how well I do with Mario in comparison to other characters. I'm not the best player in San Antonio by a long shot, but I have been told I'm the best Mario (which I disagree with. Incendiary is better).

Mario's strengths are still valid, regardless of what anyone says. He has strong mobility, good at chasing opponents, and very good to use when your goal is to constantly pressure your opponent with his frame data. However, I find A2Z's criticisms to be valid as well. Mario's neutral game is lackluster at best and nothing is really going to change that without custom moves, and his lack of reliable kill setups holds him back as well.

What I don't agree with is the intensity of Mario's issues as a whole. To be frank, I don't feel the issues that have been pointed out are that bad. It is very clear that Mario is better than a good amount of the roster, and I also do not believe he goes 45:55 against the majority of the cast. As I said a number of times before, Mario has no crutches. He is a character that directly reflects your skill and understanding of fundamentals.

Working around Mario's weaknesses should also be expected. Mario as a character is not someone you want to play passively with. His short range and lackluster neutral game means he needs to bait out his opponent in order to create openings, and then he needs to continue making strong reads in order to keep his advantage. Even further, knowing how to convert your defensive options into an aggressive reward is what will allow Mario to keep up in damage.

Finally, I still do not believe Mario players are using Mario to his full potential. I believe, as a whole, Mario's edgeguarding needs to be tapped into significantly. There are far too many Mario players who are content with staying on the stage and not going off-stage even when they're fully capable. If Mario lacks the kill options, but still has strong edgeguarding, then obviously edgeguarding needs to happen more often.

Is Mario overrated? Yes, I believe so. I don't believe he's Top 10, as much as I would like to believe so, but being in the range of 16-20 seems doable. Even if he isn't, it's already proven that he is competitively viable, so Mario mains shouldn't be disheartened by his weaknesses. Know what you can do, and know what you can't do.

 

[Luggy]

Mario is High Tier at best for me. He's good, certainly, but like any basic character, he has some weaknesses. Ironically, he's too balance, a lot of his matchups are pretty even for him, thus he's not really a counter to anyone in particular. Anyone can beat Mario, and Mario can beat anyone.

I still don't understand the hype around him though. It's not the first time that Mario is good, look at Melee for example. But apparently, he's good now, so people need to play him and always saying "Wow, Mario is so good in this game". He's Mario, of course he's good, it's like saying in a Street Fighter tournament "Ryu is so good in this game". He's been good before, but recently, people are overrating the plumber a little to high. And seeing how they still don't take the full potential of the plumber, it's kinda dumb.

Mario just adapted himself to the Smash 4 engine. He's not that good. He's not that bad. He's just normal. At least, this time around, he has better results than Doc.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I've taken a backseat because my opinion is constantly changing. Unlike the majority of the Mario mains here, I frequent tournaments, so I get first-hand experience on how well I do with Mario in comparison to other characters. I'm not the best player in San Antonio by a long shot, but I have been told I'm the best Mario (which I disagree with. Incendiary is better).

Mario's strengths are still valid, regardless of what anyone says. He has strong mobility, good at chasing opponents, and very good to use when your goal is to constantly pressure your opponent with his frame data. However, I find A2Z's criticisms to be valid as well. Mario's neutral game is lackluster at best and nothing is really going to change that without custom moves, and his lack of reliable kill setups holds him back as well.

What I don't agree with is the intensity of Mario's issues as a whole. To be frank, I don't feel the issues that have been pointed out are that bad. It is very clear that Mario is better than a good amount of the roster, and I also do not believe he goes 45:55 against the majority of the cast. As I said a number of times before, Mario has no crutches. He is a character that directly reflects your skill and understanding of fundamentals.

Working around Mario's weaknesses should also be expected. Mario as a character is not someone you want to play passively with. His short range and lackluster neutral game means he needs to bait out his opponent in order to create openings, and then he needs to continue making strong reads in order to keep his advantage. Even further, knowing how to convert your defensive options into an aggressive reward is what will allow Mario to keep up in damage.

Finally, I still do not believe Mario players are using Mario to his full potential. I believe, as a whole, Mario's edgeguarding needs to be tapped into significantly. There are far too many Mario players who are content with staying on the stage and not going off-stage even when they're fully capable. If Mario lacks the kill options, but still has strong edgeguarding, then obviously edgeguarding needs to happen more often.

Is Mario overrated? Yes, I believe so. I don't believe he's Top 10, as much as I would like to believe so, but being in the range of 16-20 seems doable. Even if he isn't, it's already proven that he is competitively viable, so Mario mains shouldn't be disheartened by his weaknesses. Know what you can do, and know what you can't do.

For the most part, I completely agree. Especially the part about Mario being a reflection of your skill. That's the reason he's my main. So much freedom.

 

[Xeze]

Imo, FLUDD needs to be used and explored more and not only for edgeguarding. Many players discard it from their options.

 

[NAKAT]

To all you Mario mains there is enough evidence out there to him already being a top 15 character in the game as well as top level players backing the "claim." Take pride in the fact that your main is actually good now and stop arguing about nonsense pertaining otherwise.

Have a good one

 

[A2ZOMG]

To all you Mario mains there is enough evidence out there to him already being a top 15 character in the game as well as top level players backing the "claim." Take pride in the fact that your main is actually good now and stop arguing about nonsense pertaining otherwise.

Have a good one

Honest question, who else besides Ally is getting results in large tournaments? I think it's also worth remembering that early in the competitive life of Brawl, many high level players also believed characters like Ike and Luigi were strong, and that Bowser wasn't terrible either. Sure, things aren't quite the same as before, but I don't simply just buy M2K making a claim (heck for that matter, I don't get how he believes Little Mac is underrated).

I've watched Ally play, and I can't put faith in his performance being representative of how the metagame works when he's basically comparable to Mango, who also got ridiculous results in Melee with random characters by having an effectively unattainable skill level. For that matter, I'm honestly surprised he didn't win Apex given how ridiculously good he is.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

For that matter, I'm honestly surprised he didn't win Apex given how ridiculously good he is.

He most likely lost due to mario's limitations as a character w/o customs.

 

[NAKAT]

Honest question, who else besides Ally is getting results in large tournaments? I think it's also worth remembering that early in the competitive life of Brawl, many high level players also believed characters like Ike and Luigi were strong, and that Bowser wasn't terrible either. Sure, things aren't quite the same as before, but I don't simply just buy M2K making a claim (heck for that matter, I don't get how he believes Little Mac is underrated).

I've watched Ally play, and I can't put faith in his performance being representative of how the metagame works when he's basically comparable to Mango, who also got ridiculous results in Melee with random characters by having an effectively unattainable skill level. For that matter, I'm honestly surprised he didn't win Apex given how ridiculously good he is.

Representation of a character is not what makes a character good or bad. It is not the sole determining factor. You sit here and belittle a character while the proof is in the pudding rendering your arguments useless.

 

[HeroMystic]

He most likely lost due to mario's limitations as a character w/o customs.

He lost because he did not know the Greninja match-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Representation of a character is not what makes a character good or bad. It is not the sole determining factor. You sit here and belittle a character while the proof is in the pudding rendering your arguments useless.

You didn't even answer my question.

I've heard your reasoning why you believe Mario is good, but you haven't completely addressed everything important. For one, I don't hear much about how Mario's matchups work from high level players. Secondly, even though Mario's Up-B is fast and has some invincibility frames, it's still quite vulnerable to trading with lingering hitboxes, and Mario can't easily make it back to the stage without his midair jump. Third, one of Mario's most important pressure tools, D-air, is actually unsafe on hit against 3 frame attacks (this includes Diddy's U-air, for instance). Fourth is you claimed Mario's Fireball is a good zoning tool when to be frank, it's still vulnerable to swatting and powershielding in midrange (unlike Luigi's much, much better Fireball or ZSS paralyzer).

For that matter, what's especially baffling is that the claims Mario were good were perpetuated pre-patch when among all the characters, he was one of the most screwed over by vectoring, making him absolutely pointless in the positive state...as well as neutral and negative for that matter.

Finally, given clearly how little you cared about arguing in the first place, why are you even here?

 

[NairWizard]

On another note, I won a customs-legal tournament yesterday using mostly Mario. I could probably not have won that same tournament with Mario if customs were off. There is a significant disparity between customs Mario and non-customs Mario, since my Mario is pretty tame compared to high-level Marios (I don't main the character or use him frequently at all).

 

[Berserker.]

@ HeroMystic

Check the edit history to read my thoughts on this discussion. Thanks

 

[Luggy]

You didn't even answer my question.

I've heard your reasoning why you believe Mario is good, but you haven't completely addressed everything important. For one, I don't hear much about how Mario's matchups work from high level players. Secondly, even though Mario's Up-B is fast and has some invincibility frames, it's still quite vulnerable to trading with lingering hitboxes, and Mario can't easily make it back to the stage without his midair jump. Third, one of Mario's most important pressure tools, D-air, is actually unsafe on hit against 3 frame attacks (this includes Diddy's U-air, for instance). Fourth is you claimed Mario's Fireball is a good zoning tool when to be frank, it's still vulnerable to swatting and powershielding in midrange (unlike Luigi's much, much better Fireball or ZSS paralyzer).

For that matter, what's especially baffling is that the claims Mario were good were perpetuated pre-patch when among all the characters, he was one of the most screwed over by vectoring, making him absolutely pointless in the positive state...as well as neutral and negative for that matter.

Finally, given clearly how little you cared about arguing in the first place, why are you even here?

Let's put a rhetorical question here : why are you here ?

You clearly don't like Mario that much in Smash 4. You have your reasons and opinions that for you have good bases. And we respect that. The problem is, you say this on a Mario section, a place where, by basic logic, people enjoy playing the character. You clearly don't like Mario, and you want your voice to be heard, saying "Mario is not that good." over and over again. But what's the point of creating a thread just for this ? Sure, we talk, but it's always the same answers : "But Mario is good, look at this" or "Mario is not Top Tier, but certainly High Tier due to this and that...". It's a vicious circle, where there's always someone defending Mario, and you, trying to counter the argument politely.

You have valid points, sure, but people have already proven that Mario is a good character. Even if he's not in a lot of tournaments, even if he's super basic, even with basic matchups ect...
Your opinion is unpopular, sure. But I think this thread is now a little useless. We should not try to whine on Mario. Instead, we should improve him : finding new ways to edgeguard, to use his tools better, to improve the character. And even if he's not that great, who cares ?

We heard your opinion and we respect it. But maybe it's time to move on.
Please understand.
Oh, and sorry if I sounded rude here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You say all that assuming that I've never been aiming to improve Mario. Frankly, it's not that I even care how good the character ends up at this point, by all means if the rest of the cast happens to be proven terrible enough that Mario magically ends up being a top character, so be it and I'll be happy with that. I am mostly ANNOYED at high level players who contribute blatant misinformation and never are available for discussion. That, by far, I believe is one of the greatest detriments to advancing Mario.

You can't tell me by the way that they haven't clearly presented faulty information. A lot of the stuff related to Mario's combo game especially is really misleading, and the extent to which people casually try to ignore how serious of a problem it is to have poor forward facing options baffles me.

 

[Macchiato]

Yew all should just drop mario and main wii fit.

Jk

But honestly marios a pretty good character, good combo strings, good kill power, and fast mobility. He's like top 20

 

[TTTTTsd]

This entire discussion is baffling to me, but it's becoming evident that there are two sides. Of these two sides, I am siding with the "Mario is not bad" one, for my own reasons and because it logistically makes sense and it is grounded by very realistic local placings from people who I KNOW play this game at tournaments.

The premise of this thread bothers me right now. All of the energy spent talking about why this character is bad should be going towards boosting his meta or at least trying to change up the gameplan if a current gameplay style isn't working. I play Dr. Mario. Dr. Mario. A bad character, honestly. In my entire span while I acknowledge he probably does need adjustments, I'm not about to go on a large scale tirade like this, I'm going to take my character and figure him out completely, enhance my knowledge, master my character based on both the current and emerging meta.

I think this thread goes against that regardless of how good or bad Mario is. I say take this energy and devote it to learning the character in this particular meta more. Not to be impolite but I feel like this would do a lot.

 

[Luggy]

This entire discussion is baffling to me, but it's becoming evident that there are two sides. Of these two sides, I am siding with the "Mario is not bad" one, for my own reasons and because it logistically makes sense and it is grounded by very realistic local placings from people who I KNOW play this game at tournaments.

The premise of this thread bothers me right now. All of the energy spent talking about why this character is bad should be going towards boosting his meta or at least trying to change up the gameplan if a current gameplay style isn't working. I play Dr. Mario. Dr. Mario. A bad character, honestly. In my entire span while I acknowledge he probably does need adjustments, I'm not about to go on a large scale tirade like this, I'm going to take my character and figure him out completely, enhance my knowledge, master my character based on both the current and emerging meta.

I think this thread goes against that regardless of how good or bad Mario is. I say take this energy and devote it to learning the character in this particular meta more. Not to be impolite but I feel like this would do a lot.

This thread is useless anyway. Even with basic logic, he keeps denying everything. It's just one unpopular opinion that servers no purpose other than arguing on one character. All I can see in this thread is one guy, struggling at making his opinion stand while others are saying the opposite, countering politely all of his arguments.

Good or bad, who cares ? I also main Doc and I found myself having a lot of fun with him. I even got good results with him, wich is nice. However, arguing on the "This character is bad" subject is useless. And I saw a lot of them, especially in the Doc section.

Those threads have no purpose other than arguing on useless stuff and gives no progress to the character whatsoever.
It would be nice to move on.

 

[Macchiato]

Every should just drop their main and go wii fit

 

[Berserker.]

I think this thread should be closed. It's devolving as far as I've read.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think this thread should be closed. It's devolving as far as I've read.

Frankly I agree. Sadly enough these boards don't get a lot of people interested in serious discussion, and it shows when basically HeroMystic, SolidSense, and I are among the only people who really bring up any Mario related strategies these days.

Which as I have stated earlier, leaves me QUITE annoyed at the professional level players who make claims but are almost never available for discussion...

 

[HeroMystic]

Locking Thread.

I'll take this time to say the boards really are pretty much driven by either myself or @ A2ZOMG . Even though we have our disagreements, we're always willing to help. I would personally enjoy it if the Mario users stepped it up and actually furthered his meta instead of talking about things that are irrelevant.