I still don't understand why Norfair is banned

[Mienaikage]

I say Norfair should be counterpick. Why? Because you don't need to be in the bunker to evade the lava. You can airdodge/sidestep/shield/jump over the massive lava wave, and because of this I personally consider it a minor hazard.

Could someone explain to me why this course is so bad that it should be banned?

 

[Ness EX-2 Plus ALPHA]

I've been in love with Norfair recently. It's not too difficult to avoid the lava. A good player can learn to avoid it and make the best strategies after playing a few matches there. I usually just jump over it when it's coming from the background, instead of going for the bunker.

 

[GreenKirby]

Someone said it should banned in team matches but it's okay for single matches

 

[Matt of Steel]

I'm just going to replicate it in Stage builder and have a hazard free Metriod stage.

 

[AlbelsPanties]

Are you serious? For tournament play, a level should have as little potential to cause harm as possible. A tournament should be a test of two players going against each other and skill winning out. With a level that can cause damage, an element of randomness is introduced when it doesn't have to be.

There's a place for levels like Norfair, and even Warioware, when you're playing with friends at home. Just keep it out of tournaments, though.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Norfair's lava barely bothers me. If the tourney scene bans it, I'll probably still play on it.

 

[Wiseguy]

Noone can force people to not play on a stage. Even if the backroom decides a stage, character or item is unfair, you can simply organize your own tourney with your own rules. You can literally play on whatever stages you want, including Norfair.

 

[Red Exodus]

Nofair is no fair. I find myself dodging the lava more than dodging my opponent. The stage is fine for friendlies but it's not for competitive play.

 

[pyro363]

Because it really isn't a noob freindly touenament match. There are to many hazards that can kill you easily if your not good.

 

[Ness EX-2 Plus ALPHA]

How is it 'no fair'? Don't your opponents have to avoid lava too (assuming they want to win)?

 

[ph00tbag]

Actually, it's a legit question, if phrased to ask why people think it's unfair, and really, none of the answers have been very good at all. The question can be broken down into several parts, and there is no good answer to any of them, IMO.

Does it enable unstoppable camping? No more than any other stage.

Does it enable any broken techniques? Not in any way.

Does it randomly reward a player for bad positioning? This is a hard one to answer, but ultimately, I think the answer is no. The rising lava floor and lava walls move slowly, and are easy to avoid and adjust to, so they aren't much of a problem. It is possible to find yourself near the safety pod without having done any work to get there, but as people have said plenty of times, the lava coming from the back is slow-moving, and one can jump over it.

I've never seen a problem with the level, for these reasons, and I fail to see why anyone could find fault with the level.

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

The only reason I can see is smash tourney players going "I am too afraid to multi-task, but if I admit that, I will be called the dreaded "scrub", so instead I will just motion that the stage be banned so I can only focus on one thing alone".

 

[Seabass]

It's like Brinstar! Half of the platforms get covered in lava and the wave still sucks even if you do know a way to dodge it. There is just wayyyyy too much interference from the stage.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Are you serious? For tournament play, a level should have as little potential to cause harm as possible. A tournament should be a test of two players going against each other and skill winning out. With a level that can cause damage, an element of randomness is introduced when it doesn't have to be.

There's a place for levels like Norfair, and even Warioware, when you're playing with friends at home. Just keep it out of tournaments, though.

Adaptability is a skill too.

 

[Deleted member]

its banned simply because its a bad map [/thread]

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

But it's awesome.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Yeah, I find it pretty exciting, besides it really lends itself to terrain tactics.

 

[dizzam]

Isn't there a part when you have to dodge a whole wave of lava and theres only one room of shelter from it?

 

[AlbelsPanties]

It's not about having to adapt, it's about the fact that a player can be given a disadvantage that he isn't given by his opponent. In a test of skill, neither player should be given a handicap, and the randomness of the level can become a handicap for one or the other player. You might say "Both players have to dodge it", but then why not do Warioware as a tournament level? Both players have to deal with everything.

The point is, the things that happen on the level will at some point force a player to give up his position and make himself vulnerable to his opponent when he wouldn't have had to on a balanced map.

 

[Ness EX-2 Plus ALPHA]

Isn't there a part when you have to dodge a whole wave of lava and theres only one room of shelter from it?

There are other ways to dodge it. You can jump over it, you can air dodge/sidestep, grab a ledge, and more.

Plus even if the shelter 'spawns' near someone, there is always plenty of time for the other person to get there, and attempt to either kick them out or jump over the wave.

 

[ph00tbag]

It's not about having to adapt, it's about the fact that a player can be given a disadvantage that he isn't given by his opponent. In a test of skill, neither player should be given a handicap, and the randomness of the level can become a handicap for one or the other player. You might say "Both players have to dodge it", but then why not do Warioware as a tournament level? Both players have to deal with everything.

The point is, the things that happen on the level will at some point force a player to give up his position and make himself vulnerable to his opponent when he wouldn't have had to on a balanced map.

Where's the disadvantage? If one person gets to the pod, the other jumps over the lava. Your argument could easily have been applied to Corneria with the Arwings, or Jungle Japes for the River God.

 

[Ness EX-2 Plus ALPHA]

You might say "Both players have to dodge it", but then why not do Warioware as a tournament level? Both players have to deal with everything.

Warioware is different because it randomly rewards people for winning a microgame with invincibility, health recovery, super size, and maybe other things. Sometimes both players can win the microgame but one gets invincibility while the other gets a 10% health recovery... not really fair.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I can agree on not having warioware, but not on stages like Norfair, where you know WELL IN ADVANCE where that lava is comming or going...Lava for the most part that can't even kill you.

Somthing should be banned, because its VERY unbalanced, not a minor inconvience.

 

[ropep0202]

In order to be a master brawler, you might just have to master luck too

 

[Zenjamin]

could someone please direct me to the place where mods have released the tournament legal stages (with explanation)

 

[Mic_128]

Tourney legal stages have yet to be decided on, but the latest talk in the Smash Back Room is that it's leaning towards Counterpicking at the moment.

*Hopes not to be lynched by SBRoomers*

So yeah, Norfair isn't banned. The giant lava wave? It can just be shielded.

 

[Zenjamin]

Thank you Mic.


Could you please comment on the relationship between the BRoomers here and the equivalent at brawlcentral?


will there be conflicting rules, or will you guys coordinate to get a uniform ruleset for the good of the community?

 

[TheManaLord]

brawl central means nothing.

 

[Zenjamin]

they grow by the day, host their own tournaments, were the first to have a "competitive" board, they also have regional zones, they have code to directly link youtube vids in posts... its been looking pretty attractive of late.


but i would like to see at least the rules of the competitive community to be consistent.

 

[Mic_128]

The SMash Back Room has nothing at all to do with Brawl Central as far as rule discussion and what not goes.

Concidering the biggest tournament hosts are here, I'd say that, well, the "official" rules and stuff would be coming from here.

 

[Zenjamin]

just as well, aparrently they already came out with rules... its plain stupid.


http://brawlcentral.com/content.php?p=stages
(click on a stage name)

 

[IceEmblem]

a hazard is still a hazard, and depending where you are and what character your using, it can be unavoidable.

 

[Yuna]

I say Norfair should be counterpick. Why? Because you don't need to be in the bunker to evade the lava. You can airdodge/sidestep/shield/jump over the massive lava wave, and because of this I personally consider it a minor hazard.

Could someone explain to me why this course is so bad that it should be banned?

1) You cannot airdodge/sidestep/shield it! Have you played the game? I believe I've personally tried to do all those things and failed since the lava just hit me anyway. I'm not sure about jumping, though. But the lava wave definitely hits higher than it looks. The hitbox is just out for too long to be able to airdodge/sidestep/shield it.
2) Why play on a stage where every X amount of seconds, the stage forces you to do something or die miserably? That something will disengage all combat unless both fighters wish to die.

 

[Zenjamin]

meh.

that one lava wave your talking about rarely comes, and when it does, skill can net you the safety sheild thing.


but I think having a list of approves tournament custom stages is a great Idea.

that level is a great counter pick against charter's like DDD, and it would not be hard to mimic with a custom stage without the lava

 

[Mic_128]

1) You cannot airdodge/sidestep/shield it! Have you played the game?

I have, and you 100% can shield it, unless it's a chance in the US version...

If you want I'll save a replay of it and upload it so you can check yourself. You can 100% shield it.

As for Side-stepping, I don't know how long the damage frames compare with invincibility frames so I can't comment. And you can easily jump over it.

EDIT: To answer your second thing Yuna, Because someone wants to use it to their advantage. Same reason Rainbow Ride/Cruise and Brinstar were allowed. It gives the people who fight better with hazzards the advantage the same way more neutral stages give others an advantage (I'm talking about playstyles, not characters themselves)

 

[Ricard_the_dragoon]

1) You cannot airdodge/sidestep/shield it! Have you played the game? I believe I've personally tried to do all those things and failed since the lava just hit me anyway. I'm not sure about jumping, though. But the lava wave definitely hits higher than it looks. The hitbox is just out for too long to be able to airdodge/sidestep/shield it.
2) Why play on a stage where every X amount of seconds, the stage forces you to do something or die miserably? That something will disengage all combat unless both fighters wish to die.

(1)Yes, you can Air-dodge or Shield it, I always do. You can Also Jump over it with several Characters, I have before with Pit and R.O.B.
(2) It is Called A challenge, and it helps to create new Strategies, Such as Smashing an opponent into the Lava whe it comes from side for Example. You should never disengage from combat when fleeing from the lava, try to knock your opponent into it

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I'm sick of people calling stages that kill you randomly a challenge and if we can't deal with it we suck too much.

When you are playing a 1v1, you should not have random stage hazards dictating what you do. So you have to jump over the lava, but you just put yourself in the air, when you didn't want to. What if your ariels suck and your opponents doesn't? What if your key to victory is ground attacks, but you were just forced into the air. FORCED... How do people not understand this.

Don't get me wrong - I love the stage. But it's hard to say if it will be banned or not.

 

[Mic_128]

When you are playing a 1v1, you should not have random stage hazards dictating what you do. So you have to jump over the lava, but you just put yourself in the air, when you didn't want to. What if your ariels suck and your opponents doesn't? What if your key to victory is ground attacks, but you were just forced into the air. FORCED... How do people not understand this.

That's why it's a counterpick and not a neutral.

 

[Yuna]

I have, and you 100% can shield it, unless it's a chance in the US version...

I could've sworn I could never shield it when I played on it. The giant flood of lava (the one where you have to go into the capsule) would just get me every time.

 

[Mic_128]

Here, just made a really brief replay of Bowser and Charizard shielding.